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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Vazion
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:01:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Patch86
I was in sarcasm mode too- note the
Learn the sarcasm volley . Maybe prolongued irony isn't all the effective in text form.............
I know, heh.. was the best thing I could pick.
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BPO HATTER
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:18:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Vazion Edited by: Vazion on 05/11/2006 23:24:58
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Vazion I think you all are trying to explain it in real world terms too much..And that you've strayed from the topic too much.
Fortunately I can't help with bringing it back.
BPO Hatter is a Communist.
Don't you see that Capitalistic hate in the OP?
Actually, he's more of a Socialist.
Communist EVE would look an awful lot like Sisi- everything seeded at 100isk. Nice as that would be in RL, I'm not thinking it'd make for a great game
....GET OUT OF HERE COMMI!
Edit since BPO Hatter replied: Dude, lrn 2 sarcasm. It was a joke, again. You're getting to serious about this.
I was in sarcasm mode too- note the
Learn the sarcasm volley . Maybe prolongued irony isn't all the effective in text form.............
No offense meant to BPO HATTER- in case you hadn't noticed, I've been aggreeing with you so far
After 6 pages, names get jumbled together about who agrees and disagrees.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:23:00 -
[153]
Ask yourself, who will CCP listen to, some random alts or some posters who post with their mains?
You are not a commi. You are not a socialist. You are not an anti-capitalist.
You are a counter-strikist. I think test server will suit your play style if you do not like Hulks at 500M. Why do you need Cerberus or Hulk? --------- Faction Warfare Begins Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
BPO HATTER
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:45:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Ask yourself, who will CCP listen to, some random alts or some posters who post with their mains?
You are not a commi. You are not a socialist. You are not an anti-capitalist.
You are a counter-strikist. I think test server will suit your play style if you do not like Hulks at 500M. Why do you need Cerberus or Hulk?
Whats the point of exhumers 4? I ain't even bothered with a cerebus, not worth the training cause the isk you lose in it.
Why would I play on the test server? I never said ANYTHING was wrong with gaugin some on a hulk or cerebus did I? One of my whole points is that it is beyond the point of sanity, I geuss since you think it is okay, ALL T1 BUILDERS SHOULDCHARGE 12X AS MUCH AS BUILD COST. That would spread the isk around. I mean come on, you acctually think 40m in build cost justify you claiming your time is worth 460m, to right click and build?
Acctually the whole point of postin is get others to post that can think, or atleast view the market from the other side of a vagabond bpo.
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:56:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Red Ochre its really rather simple chrisbuddy, this is a game economy, one that would not survive any other place but imagination.
This single statement invalidated your entire post.
You have no understanding of what a real world market is, do you? It is run by greed as much as the EVE economy is - the only difference being that CCP dont have to listen to whiny idiots who think they know about economics because they're effectively benevolent dictators, so they dont have to pander to armchair economists who have no idea what they're talking about, whereas in RL governments do their utmost to screw everything up.
my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp |
Vazion
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:59:00 -
[156]
Originally by: BPO HATTER
Acctually the whole point of postin is get others to post that can think, or atleast view the market from the other side of a vagabond bpo.
You want people to make posts about their views yet you insult everyone without a second thoughtt. Not very productive, is it? I don't have a single BPO to my name. Sure, I think prices are a little over the top but I suck it up and pay for it. Its only ISK. If I really wanted a Hulk I'd stop whining on the forums and start making the ISK to pay for it and hopefully I'll be able to make it back over time. Of course this all depends on how long you plan on playing Eve.
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BPO HATTER
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Posted - 2006.11.06 02:42:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Vazion
Originally by: BPO HATTER
Acctually the whole point of postin is get others to post that can think, or atleast view the market from the other side of a vagabond bpo.
You want people to make posts about their views yet you insult everyone without a second thoughtt. Not very productive, is it? I don't have a single BPO to my name. Sure, I think prices are a little over the top but I suck it up and pay for it. Its only ISK. If I really wanted a Hulk I'd stop whining on the forums and start making the ISK to pay for it and hopefully I'll be able to make it back over time. Of course this all depends on how long you plan on playing Eve.
You may want to change the corp your in? T2 ammo. Okay you don't directly benefit from it, but your corp does, so you are getting an indirect benefit.
If you noticed, MAJORITY (80%, atleast) are insults to the ppl who either say I know nothing of supply and demand (I would have hoped in my first post I would have an idea of supply and demand), or people who own the BPOs that are raising their prices so they earn that extra few B a week while they give non of that profit to the people who do ALL the work minus, right click, build.
I believe in several posts I acctually said something nice about someone who disagreed with me, but they atleast argued their point decently, not the old don't lower the market so I can't make 3.1b a week.
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Vazion
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Posted - 2006.11.06 02:53:00 -
[158]
Originally by: BPO HATTER
You may want to change the corp your in? T2 ammo. Okay you don't directly benefit from it, but your corp does, so you are getting an indirect benefit.
I don't get any sort of benefit from my corp..Direct or indirect, considering that more than 70% of our members are completely inactive..If you want to drag Corps into this then you should a)Get your facts straight and b) Stop hiding behind your alt.
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.11.06 02:55:00 -
[159]
i fail to see how your first post demonstrates any understanding (or lack thereof) of supply and demand at all.
my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp |
Xelios
Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.11.06 03:26:00 -
[160]
This has gone beyond simple supply and demand. Supply and Demand works fine and dandy in the real world because we have laws to keep prices sane, like laws against monopolies and price collusion. COMPETITION runs the economy in the real world, but who needs competition in EVE when someone can simply buy up every BPO of a t2 item and charge whatever he wants for it?
Not to mention in the real world if there's a huge demand for a product and very limited supply other companies will move in to fill that demand, government might even subsidise those companies to help fill the demand.
270 mil for a ship that costs 35 mil to produce is totally ridiculous, with prices like that it's no wonder so many people are macro mining and selling GTC's.
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BPO HATTER
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Posted - 2006.11.06 04:23:00 -
[161]
Originally by: zeKzn i fail to see how your first post demonstrates any understanding (or lack thereof) of supply and demand at all.
Acctually it does. I state in their that it is fine to charge more than item is worth because of its rariety, like were I said a hulk costs 40m to make, and that I would think 150-200m is a fair price considering they are t2 and supposed to be elite.
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BPO HATTER
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Posted - 2006.11.06 04:25:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Vazion
Originally by: BPO HATTER
You may want to change the corp your in? T2 ammo. Okay you don't directly benefit from it, but your corp does, so you are getting an indirect benefit.
I don't get any sort of benefit from my corp..Direct or indirect, considering that more than 70% of our members are completely inactive..If you want to drag Corps into this then you should a)Get your facts straight and b) Stop hiding behind your alt.
FYI, ppl ussually don't see the indirect benefit.
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Vazion
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Posted - 2006.11.06 04:32:00 -
[163]
Originally by: BPO HATTER
FYI, ppl ussually don't see the indirect benefit.
Good job! Now read the 2nd half of the post, then we'll talk some more. |
zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.11.06 05:58:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Xelios This has gone beyond simple supply and demand. Supply and Demand works fine and dandy in the real world because we have laws to keep prices sane, like laws against monopolies and price collusion. COMPETITION runs the economy in the real world, but who needs competition in EVE when someone can simply buy up every BPO of a t2 item and charge whatever he wants for it?
Nobody gave you the right to define at what point a price becomes "insane" as opposed to sane, and you're wrong anyway. Those laws are distortions of the market, and make Supply and Demand work other than its supposed to.
Quote: Not to mention in the real world if there's a huge demand for a product and very limited supply other companies will move in to fill that demand, government might even subsidise those companies to help fill the demand.
Only if there are low or no barriers to entry, otherwise they will not. Government subsidies are one of the most terrible inventions in economics from the past century anyway.
Quote: 270 mil for a ship that costs 35 mil to produce is totally ridiculous, with prices like that it's no wonder so many people are macro mining and selling GTC's.
Again, you have no more right than anyone else to define "totally rediculous" as opposed to perfectly ok. The cost of production is irrelevant when supply is perfectly inelastic.
[Quote=BPO HATTER]Acctually it does. I state in their that it is fine to charge more than item is worth because of its rariety, like were I said a hulk costs 40m to make, and that I would think 150-200m is a fair price considering they are t2 and supposed to be elite.
That demonstrates a lack of understanding of supply and demand, rather than understanding. If they are selling hulks for 500m, then that is the price at which it is "fine" to sell. You have no right to define "fine," especially as you dont have access to the exact market figures and cost figures of a t2 producer. The only thing that matters in supply and demand is where the demand meets supply, and clearly in this case it is meeting at 500m.
my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp |
Karina Harington
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.06 07:32:00 -
[165]
Originally by: dailyhazard Time is money. When we get bpo's we spend time, invested in skills to produce said item and also in best marketing strategys and to maximise property.
Spending time training up those skills is somewhat lost time not training other skills, but it's hardly time you spend 9-5 at the office. The marketing aspect I'll give you, but again, it costs Ferrari far more to market than it costs you, proportionally.
Quote: We are like ferrari, whether you like it or not, now get back in the vauxall nova!
There are equivalent alternatives to a Ferrari, such as Porsche. They're not exactly the same but they fill the same market segment. There is no way I can go about creating, say, a Hulk alternative. The analogy doesn't fit.
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Pham Sirge
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 07:57:00 -
[166]
Hi all,
My main issue with the whole T2 market is as follows:
I have trained skills to use T2 equipment and ships, Yet as it currently stands using this equipment in pvp is highly uneconomical, When fighting I can stand to loose around 20 T1 fitted battleships before I think about it.
That drops to around 5 battleships with T2 equipment before I break my bank, now with hac's its more like 1 T2 fitted hac. Thats got to be wrong.
I spend 3 months training to use the ship and the first gank fleet I meet is going to empty my bank.
Im not what I would consider a poor pvper, but the only people I see in hac's these days are people with associations to T2 bpo holders. Thats gotta be wrong, at the current market price I have to carebear for a week in order to afford one.
Im not asking for 1000's of new bpos to hit the market, I just want to be able to buy a ship I have trained for, at a price that isnt Worth more time than the ships will survive for.
Anyone making the case T2 should be special, I really hate to inform you IT ISNT. On the test server CCP are giving new characters T2 frig and T2 small guns GEEZ SPECIAL, 1 day old newbies are going to be flying/using them.
T2 is required to be an strong contributer in fleet pvp (see ascn T1 fleet VS bob T2 fleet). Invention might help, (I hope) but I doubt it.
, Pham Sirge
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Horoc'h Ryydell
Gallente Templar Securities and Holdings
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Posted - 2006.11.06 08:52:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Pham Sirge Anyone making the case T2 should be special, I really hate to inform you IT ISNT. On the test server CCP are giving new characters T2 frig and T2 small guns GEEZ SPECIAL, 1 day old newbies are going to be flying/using them.
The test-server is not EVE ;-)
Besides that, im(h)o T2 stuf should be extremely expensive and therefore rare... it's not that people really want to use it, people want to show others what a cool ship they can fly. And they are soooo right!
((Do I sound too Gallente jet-set-loving influenced now? :p ))
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We are Recruiting AUS/EUR timezone player |
Susa Ou
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:07:00 -
[168]
I feel, and always felt that T2 BPOs should be available to buy just like any T1 BPO, that would dictate the economics better and make it more capitalist. As it stands, there is no competition and thats what is keeping the prices up. The T1 market is good becuase of this competition, the T2 market is based on the lottery and limited production. . .its not about fair, its about a good market so people can compeat.
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:18:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Moghydin on 06/11/2006 09:23:10 Who decided that T2 should be expensive and rare? You know, some time ago (prepare for a big surprise) it wasn't. HACs were selling for 60-70 mill, they were affordable. Most T2 mods (except may be T2 rechargers which BPOs were bought off by some greedy gouger)were affordable. No one said back then that T2 ships are a sign of incredible wealth and 1337ness. But it happens now. Why? Because CCP were unable to think forward and release additional BPOs according to the increase in player base. They thought that X BPOs should be enough for Y players. Now we have the same X BPO's, but 3xY players, and no additional BPOs were released - nice example of strategic thinking. How many players have trained for skills for HACs, Cov ops and elite BCs and can't use them, because the prices are simply ridiculous? Who said that you have to be very special to afford those ships? Just don't bring that Ferrari example here. We have "Ferrari" items in game. They are faction and officer mods and ships, they are NOT T2 ships and modules. T2 items were supposed to be advanced, not elite!
After all, current T2 prices encourage en-masse GTC selling, outright illegal $ --> ISK ebay transactions and macroing.
T2 prices bring more cheaters and cheating into the game, wonderful, isn't it?
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Pham Sirge
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:20:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Pham Sirge on 06/11/2006 09:22:23 Hi all,
Quote:
The test-server is not EVE ;-)
Besides that, im(h)o T2 stuf should be extremely expensive and therefore rare... it's not that people really want to use it, people want to show others what a cool ship they can fly. And they are soooo right!
Are you really that silly that you believe the test server isnÆt eve... well IÆm sure the rokh, wrecks etc. wonÆt be there either lol.
IÆm sure you empire based care bears love those hacs you keep in your hanger and drive around the block to show off to newbieÆs.
Some people actually want to play eve fully rather than hiding in empire. Hacs are a combat craft and are (debatably) the next step up from battleship, IÆve trained the skills, I make money at a good rate yet hac's are complete out of my price range for pvp(T2 large guns are getting worse also but Ill stick to hacÆs atm)
This needs to change. T2 items should not be things wheeled out to show the newbieÆs and then hidden again (whereÆs the fun in that? [The same place as all the rattlesnakes]).
, Pham Sirge
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Sgt Blade
Imperial Space Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:41:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Sgt Blade on 06/11/2006 09:44:30 Edited by: Sgt Blade on 06/11/2006 09:42:55
Originally by: BPO HATTER
Originally by: Sonos SAGD I have a question for all the t2 bpo haters
I do not have any that i personally own and i speak for myself not for my corp or alliance
If you some how won a t2 hulk would you sell it for a "reasonable" price, or would you sell it at current market value? i doublt you you sell them at 200 mil lets say when people are buying them at 500
Heres what I would do. Sell em at 200m a pop in a market far off the trade routes so that jerk with XXXXXb isk won't buy em all up cause has been selling em at 500m
errm unless all bpo holders did that... you will get people buying them off you and re selling at 500 so either way your wasteing your time because with that kinda profit people with that kinda money will still run down to pick them up with freighters ect if not the guiy with lots of isk people with only less then a bill can still buy 1 or 2 and resell i know i would
EDIT clicked on wrong quote
ISC Are Recruiting |
Uggster
Caldari Never'where
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:41:00 -
[172]
IF YOU CANT AFFORD IT THEN DONT BUY IT
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Sig removed as inappropriate- Tirg
Story of my life that one :( |
Crux Australis
Reikoku
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:53:00 -
[173]
Solution -> T2 BPOs should be NPC sold and should cost billions.
If you can't see why then you don't want to. End of.
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Rusom Rokath
Amarr 1m95
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:54:00 -
[174]
Mining the right ores with a Hulk earns you what, 50 mil per hour?
That's still way more than any T2 bpo will make you.
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Riposte
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:08:00 -
[175]
The profit margin t2 being sold at is not unheard of outside of the gaming world.
Just as an example a 2 year old graphics card can be purchased and roughly 100$. A company will not sell those without a profit. For the examples case lets say the cost is 50$ to make making a 100% profit of that card. A new gaming card where i live is about 600$ when it hits stores, same production cost giving a 12x profit margin.
Basically what Eve lacks is what happened in those 2 years to force the price down. A technology becomes commonplace and lots of companies produce it. Making higher supply and forcing prices down.
Adding bpo's to the market wont change that alot knowing big research corps theyd swallow up the majority of the bpo's to protect their own investment(hell i would if i ran one.)
Since i havent delved into how invention works ill just through an idea out. When a new tech is resarched its a lucky scientist or 2 that has a breakthrough. Now that tech will then be hard to obtain but as days and weeks pass these new items will go on the market and eventually should be able to be researched by others seing and understanding how they work. For the sake of this ill say a bpo is considered scare and not publicly researchable for a month of realtime. After a month it is getting common and research of it can begin. Research of an existant tech could be something like having to aquire and reverse engineer an already created version of the item in a lab, adding to it RP and materials needed in the reverse engineering. Then after that process is over the bpo is attained by the researcher.
Unless theres an implemented system that allows for competitors to aquire specific tech the market will stay pretty much the same supply is really low and profit margin really high. It would be that way outside of games if companies where allowed to be the sole possesors of a technology.
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:11:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Uggster IF YOU CANT AFFORD IT THEN DONT BUY IT
Way to go missing the point. This "argument" is thrown again and again both displaying ignorance and inciting frustration.
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Fto Cruise
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:22:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Crux Australis Solution -> T2 BPOs should be NPC sold and should cost billions.
If you can't see why then you don't want to. End of.
Although I have won the lottery 4 times, I do think this could be the answer. It makes sense too seeing that the BPOs are discovered by the NPC research agents!
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:39:00 -
[178]
Originally by: BPO HATTER The next two points of yours furthers my points. Do you pay 200 dollars for a dvd? Do you pay a few hundred dollars for one ticket to see a movie?
Er, actually the production cost of a DVD is about half a dollar. But they sell them for more BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WILL PAY. That's economics. No, of course they don't sell them for $200 - people wouldn't pay that. But they don't sell them for $2 either even if that would be, by your argument, a healthy enough profit.
500M is what (enough) people will pay for a Hulk, so that's what they're sold at. If people didn't buy them, the price would come down. But they do, so it doesn't!
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:52:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Lucre
Originally by: BPO HATTER The next two points of yours furthers my points. Do you pay 200 dollars for a dvd? Do you pay a few hundred dollars for one ticket to see a movie?
Er, actually the production cost of a DVD is about half a dollar. But they sell them for more BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WILL PAY. That's economics. No, of course they don't sell them for $200 - people wouldn't pay that. But they don't sell them for $2 either even if that would be, by your argument, a healthy enough profit.
500M is what (enough) people will pay for a Hulk, so that's what they're sold at. If people didn't buy them, the price would come down. But they do, so it doesn't!
Sorry to point you to being wrong
Net margins on most products are not that great, and if $2 would be a really nice profit margin, then the COMPETITORS (something that doesn't exist in Eve T2 market) would start selling huge amounts of those DVDs at, say, $4. What happens next? No one buys DVDs at $50. The problem is that you don't take into account development cost, different expenses on the factory, cost of manufacturing equipment, personnel salaries, advertisement costs substantial shipping costs, expenses by the shopkeeper who actually sells the DVD and runs the shop, taxes, taxes and more taxes. After all, the profit is not so big even at $50 for DVD. The same goes for a rather childish argument that software companies spend around 10c to issue a CD with their software, but charge $50 for it.
All above mentioned expenses do not exist in Eve. The market is artificially capped, and we pay 1000% more just because someone got lucky.
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Horoc'h Ryydell
Gallente Templar Securities and Holdings
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:10:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Horoc''h Ryydell on 06/11/2006 11:11:42 *grins*
Gotto love these discussions; (btw, feel the sarcasm... especially on the first post)
I agree that the prices are ridiculous, I agree it is just based on luck. I don't agree it ruins the game though... only if you want to fly alone and plan to win EVE.
There's no reason for the game to be fair... as it is a game. So what is fair?
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We are Recruiting AUS/EUR timezone player |
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