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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters EVE Alliance9673
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Posted - 2006.11.06 19:33:00 -
[1]
Both races have major fitting problems, as tux said in the dev chat. I took that to heart and decided not to be bias and think of a fix for both.
Each race should have the ability to fit a full rack of their highest pg required guns without any fitting mod needed.
e.g. #1 Apoc has 24375 pg with full skills; Tachyon II's need 3712.5 pg each, 8 (full rack) requires 29700 pg to fit.
e.g. #2 Tempest has 19375 pg with full skills; 1400mm's need 3250 pg each to fit, 6 (full rack) require 19500 to fit.
e.g. #3 Megathron has 19375 pg with full skills; 425's need only 2386.36 to fit, 7 (full rack) require only 16704.52 to fit.
I'm not arguing that the megathron should be nerfed, their guns do less damage and use more cpu. This would fix all Amarr cruisers, and the apoc (which honestly is one of the biggest problem), but also fixes any ships from other races to get fixed.
The proposal if you dont see it already is to Increase powergrid on all ships using this method : Take highest pg using gun to determind how much powergrid ships should have. Do not nerf gallante or caldari by using this formula, they have other issues to deal with, also apply the same theory to gallante if they so need it.
Amarr fix # 2.
No one likes the cap reduction bonus because it only makes ships usable, not better. I've attempted to suggest replacements in the past, but apparently they are too extreme.
Tux, keep an open mind on this, you said Amarr need flavor, well, I took the existing flavor and increased it.
Instead of 10% to cap per level, make 15% cap per level.
Everyone thoroughly confused now? lol, well this makes a level 5 pilot find themselves with an advantage to use lasers. Their rof bonuses still apply without punishing them. With Kali being so cap intensive, this is the perfect fix. Let Amarr be the kings of cap they are supposed to be, make it so they want to fit lasers and others still wont.
e.g. for a Level 5 Pilot : Tachyon II's on an apoc use 34.55625 cap per shot/gun with the 10% per level bonus. If it was changed to 15% per level it would become : 17.3 cap per shot/gun.
Now this may seem like a lot, but this is a level 5 pilot we are talking about. A level 4 pilot with Tach II's use 27.645 cap per shot/gun, which is still higher than 425 II's. Besides, this is OUR BONUS!! It should be a worthwhile skill. Where currently, there is no good reason to use lasers, especially since we have rof bonus's instead of Damage bonuses, which cap you out faster.
This is the perfect fix for Amarr ships with cap bonuses, along with the PG fitting fix and Amarr becomes perfectly balanced, with no real need to change ean's.
Questions? Concerns?
Tux, please comment on this, I think this is the type of fix that CCP would do, I thought about and did the math, it all makes sense.
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters EVE Alliance9673
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Posted - 2006.11.06 19:45:00 -
[2]
I like thoses ideas because it makes the amarr bonus seem like a real bonus. Plus anyone that has flown a amarr cruiser that fits guns would say this is also a need change.
I think this would give the amarr pilots a little boost while not overpowering or nerfing any other race.
Signed
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Plymer Ization
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.06 19:47:00 -
[3]
/signed
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Erazer4Nerver
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.11.06 19:56:00 -
[4]
signed i'll never lose |
Merc Avenger
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Posted - 2006.11.06 19:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata SNIP No one likes the cap reduction bonus because it only makes ships usable, not better. I've attempted to suggest replacements in the past, but apparently they are too extreme. SNIP
I find this little quote HILARIOUS. The funny thing is minmatar weapons are balanced around not one but two bonuses. In essence what you say about Amaar weapons would be twice as true on minmatar. Its been a contention point on minmatar balance for a long time, since the Tempest use up both its bonuses just to bring it up to acceptable damage. (Its still got the worst DPS though).
Everyone think everybody else have it easier (except caldari, everybody agree they have it almost to easy :) )
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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters EVE Alliance9673
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Merc Avenger
Originally by: Cosmo Raata SNIP No one likes the cap reduction bonus because it only makes ships usable, not better. I've attempted to suggest replacements in the past, but apparently they are too extreme. SNIP
I find this little quote HILARIOUS. The funny thing is minmatar weapons are balanced around not one but two bonuses. In essence what you say about Amaar weapons would be twice as true on minmatar. Its been a contention point on minmatar balance for a long time, since the Tempest use up both its bonuses just to bring it up to acceptable damage. (Its still got the worst DPS though).
Everyone think everybody else have it easier (except caldari, everybody agree they have it almost to easy :) )
If we used the same cap as other races, that would be fine, but we're still higher. I'm not arguing that we should use no cap bud, I'm arguing that at level 4 it should be on par with gallante guns and at level 5 it should be better. I really fail to see how thats unfair or "hilarious".
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Godar Marak
Amarr Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:05:00 -
[7]
Signed.
But you are preaching to deaf ears -------------------- \0/\0/\0/\0/\0/ Cant we all just get along? Wheres EVE heading? |
Ferrete
Minmatar AFK Mining
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:12:00 -
[8]
/Signed
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Major Riven
Federation of Freedom Fighters EVE Alliance9673
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:40:00 -
[9]
Signed.
PS. Minmatar is not that bad off.
1.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II places an excellent hit on hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 613.5 damage. 2.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), wrecking for 1304.7 damage. 3.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II is well aimed at hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 489.2 damage. 4.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II hits hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), doing 394.4 damage. 5.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), wrecking for 1357.5 damage. 6.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II is well aimed at hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 492.4 damage.
Add that up and tell me the Tempest is bad off for DPS. BTW its 4,651.7 damage in 1 volley.
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Layla Currie
The Highway Men
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Major Riven Signed.
PS. Minmatar is not that bad off.
1.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II places an excellent hit on hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 613.5 damage. 2.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), wrecking for 1304.7 damage. 3.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II is well aimed at hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 489.2 damage. 4.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II hits hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), doing 394.4 damage. 5.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), wrecking for 1357.5 damage. 6.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II is well aimed at hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 492.4 damage.
Add that up and tell me the Tempest is bad off for DPS. BTW its 4,651.7 damage in 1 volley.
ok you got a couple wreckings in there gj, if i get wreckings every other hit too i'm sure my dps would be sweet, unfortunately that's not exactly a common occurance. Look at AC dps, a temptest needs bship 5 and the rof/dmg bonus to be able to compete at all, and it's still on the lower end.
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Camulos Redne
Amarr Chaos Knights
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:49:00 -
[11]
why don't they just make a new skill. -% to weapon cap usage per level. You train this and it works on all energy using weapons ie lasers and hybrid. Then you can change the Amarr ship bonouses.
Come on you sons of apes, do you want to live forever! |
Wrayeth
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Camulos Redne why don't they just make a new skill. -% to weapon cap usage per level. You train this and it works on all energy using weapons ie lasers and hybrid. Then you can change the Amarr ship bonouses.
Um...
Clicky
...just check the link. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
R.I.P. AC tempest R.I.P. Torp raven
Thanks, CCP.
R.I.P. My account, after the next cycle. |
AlexCA
Amarr De Valken BV
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Camulos Redne why don't they just make a new skill. -% to weapon cap usage per level. You train this and it works on all energy using weapons ie lasers and hybrid. Then you can change the Amarr ship bonouses.
This skill exist, Its called controlled bursts, I have it trained to 5. Just like I have amarr BS trained to 5 and both capacitor skills trained to 5. Still sucks cap like no tomorrow.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Major Riven Signed.
PS. Minmatar is not that bad off.
1.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II places an excellent hit on hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 613.5 damage. 2.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), wrecking for 1304.7 damage. 3.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II is well aimed at hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 489.2 damage. 4.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II hits hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), doing 394.4 damage. 5.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), wrecking for 1357.5 damage. 6.Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II is well aimed at hardwurrr [FOFF]<.EXE>(Megathron), inflicting 492.4 damage.
Add that up and tell me the Tempest is bad off for DPS. BTW its 4,651.7 damage in 1 volley.
Now add in rate of fire to the equation...
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Shirazz
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:18:00 -
[15]
/signed
But i think that a better way to 'fix' them would be to reduce the cap useage of lasers across the board by 25%, in place of the laser cap bonus give a RoF bonus and instead of a RoF(atm) give a dmg bonus.
I dont fly minmatar but it would be cool it they got a 25% speed boost and autoes and artillery got a tracking bonus.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:19:00 -
[16]
using the SMALLEST level of small beam lasers on amarr frigs usually requires a fitting mod.
medium beam laser 2s (yes, its a small beam laser) is completely unusable.
this is only one of the many problems.
Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
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Polaskii
Amarr CyberDyne Industries Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:26:00 -
[17]
/Signed
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Byzan Zwyth
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:42:00 -
[18]
the "minmatar have lower damage" issue is an interesting one, although in ome cases they have the lowest raw DPS in a class of ship their actual DPS can be good considering they have the ability to pick and choose their damage type.
I think the changes you suggest would be enough to make me stick with amarr without making them overpowered. As long as the ECM nerf is good enough.
It's tricky, I liked some of the ideas I posted in the amarr thread and they did not get flamed so they must have been reasonable :) ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow - and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters EVE Alliance9673
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:45:00 -
[19]
Ok, minmitar guys, stop flaming, you are all probably getting a boost to damage or rof, either way I think you guys need it. I think you guys would agree with the changes fine if you just focused on them both. They help all of us. Now stop flaming and see if they make sense or not.
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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth the "minmatar have lower damage" issue is an interesting one, although in ome cases they have the lowest raw DPS in a class of ship their actual DPS can be good considering they have the ability to pick and choose their damage type.
able to pick and choose their damage type.... really...
what projectile ammo allows me to hit at 220km doing em, kinetic and thermal damage?
minmatar can't pick and choose their damage type they way people think they can... only 1 race can really pick its damage type over all ranges and that caldari.
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Megadon
Caldari Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:46:00 -
[21]
Good post.
/signed
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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters EVE Alliance9673
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:47:00 -
[22]
again people, stay on topic please. Or maybe minmitar guys prefer this to be known as a flame thread and not get any help in this department. I swear a lot of you guys are 16 year olds that can't control themselves.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:48:00 -
[23]
I like the changes, defintily like the changes.
Other fix would be to just reduce laser cap use by 50% and then give them usefull bonuses each level[not nessesarily damage based] like +tracking, +optimal, +Armor Hit Points, +powergrid, or +capacitor.
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Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Goumindong I like the changes, defintily like the changes.
Other fix would be to just reduce laser cap use by 50% and then give them usefull bonuses each level[not nessesarily damage based] like +tracking, +optimal, +Armor Hit Points, +powergrid, or +capacitor.
Too much flavor, makes Amarr a usable race.
VETOED
- What tuxford would probably think
Last Weeks Signature |
Mallick
Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:55:00 -
[25]
No matter how much you twist it, lasers should require more capacitor to use then the railgun. You want to fix amarr? Up their capacitor instead.
As for the powergrid usage for guns? Im my ******* honest opinion I feel that EVERY race should struggle to fitt more then 4 of their BEST weapon, simply because they should really SACRIFICE slots to be able to use their BEST weapons. It was like this in the old days, but not anymore. :(
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Xendie
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.06 23:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Merc Avenger
Originally by: Cosmo Raata SNIP No one likes the cap reduction bonus because it only makes ships usable, not better. I've attempted to suggest replacements in the past, but apparently they are too extreme. SNIP
I find this little quote HILARIOUS. The funny thing is minmatar weapons are balanced around not one but two bonuses. In essence what you say about Amaar weapons would be twice as true on minmatar. Its been a contention point on minmatar balance for a long time, since the Tempest use up both its bonuses just to bring it up to acceptable damage. (Its still got the worst DPS though).
Everyone think everybody else have it easier (except caldari, everybody agree they have it almost to easy :) )
i wouldnt say that as i saw a corpmate post ridicilously high dmg shots in corpchat today. he one volley'd the armor on a armour tanking battleship pretty much.
yes minmatar have worse rof but properly used they have a really nasty punch. amarr on the other hand.. suck.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.06 23:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aeaus
Originally by: Goumindong I like the changes, defintily like the changes.
Other fix would be to just reduce laser cap use by 50% and then give them usefull bonuses each level[not nessesarily damage based] like +tracking, +optimal, +Armor Hit Points, +powergrid, or +capacitor.
Too much flavor, makes Amarr a usable race.
VETOED
- What tuxford would probably think
:(
I still like my idea.
/me goes and dreams of a 10% HP/5% resist maller, or a 10% capacitor/5% resist maller, or a +10% powergrid/5% resist maller.
Or a 7.5% tracking/5% RoF Omen, or a 10% optimal/5% RoF Omen, or a 10% powergrid/5% RoF Omen, or a 10% HP/5% RoF Omen, or an abaddon like 5% resist/5% RoF Omen.
Heck, my fix would allow other races to fit lasers if they wanted, which could be usefull on ships without damage bonuses to their racial weapons that arent worried about weapon cap usage.
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Twin blade
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Posted - 2006.11.06 23:55:00 -
[28]
Why did you use T2 guns on the apoc and T1 on the other's as it make's your whole PG point worthless.
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:26:00 -
[29]
Why did you use T2 guns on the apoc and T1 on the other's as it make's your whole PG point worthless. ----------------------------------------------------
he didnt use t1, it looks he could be alittle off maybe but to my math it looks like he gave the gall and minmatar alittle more pg than amarr. why dont you look at the point of what he saying.
apoc 3712.5 per tach 8 = 29700 tempest 3217.5 per1400 x = 19305 mega 2363.4 per 425 x = 16543.8 is what it came out to me looking like. so i dont think he used t1 guns for the minmatar and gall because last time i checked they use less pg.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:34:00 -
[30]
Rather than increasing the Apoc's grid, the fitting requirements of all beam lasers should be reduced.
Fitting beams is more of a problem on cruisers and frigates.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
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