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DeadDuck
Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 12:34:00 -
[1]
After some testing I'm reaching the conclusion that the tier 2 BC are about to put HACS obsolete.
The superior PG/CPU/Slot layout of the BC vs Hacs makes them actually superior to the untill now all powerfull HAC's.
I can see still room for the Cerberus/Vagabonds but all the others are inferior to this new ships. Even more the prices and insurance payouts makes them the logic choice to go to combat.
Please discuss
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 12:37:00 -
[2]
HACs still have better base resistances and four bonuses instead of two.
Additionally, they're generally more agile and smaller than battlecruisers.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
6Bagheera9
Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:07:00 -
[3]
HACs are specialized ships with abilities beyond those of more general purpose BCs and will still excel at their roles (Munnin-High Damage Sniper, Eagle-Long Range Sniper, Zealot-Fast Ganker, Ishtar-Mini-Domi). I should also add that due to their expense, most active PvPer already don't fly them 23/7.
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Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:08:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pottsey on 07/11/2006 13:13:42 HACS have been obsolete for a long time its just most people havenĘt realised Command Ships are both tougher to kill and do more damage along with being a lot cheaper to buy. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Rina Shanu
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:32:00 -
[5]
No, I'm afraid this comes to a matter of choice and playstile. Those who can afford a hac and like it fly it, those who like and afford a command ship fly that. Many many people fly cruisers and even more fly frigates, because it's a matter of choice. I can fly frigs, t2 frigs, cruisers, bcs, industrials and battleships. I can afford a bs or a bc or whatever but I do not fly them, becasue i like the agility and speed of frigates and the firepower of cruisers. So I fly cruisres and frigs. Perhaps with changes to the agility or mass of the BCs I will reconsider, but for now, frigs and cruisers for me (oh, and when I will afford loosing hacs and be able to fly them, I will, over BCs or Battleships exactly for their increased speed and agility)
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:39:00 -
[6]
HACs fill a different niche to battleships and battlecruisers.
They have better signature, resistances and speed than the BCs. And more bonuses.
I don't think they're obselete, any more than battleships make normal cruisers obselete.
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El Yatta
Caldari Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:44:00 -
[7]
People are stupid and have already ignored the fact that since the tier 1 BCs got a boost back in RMR they are superior to the HACs. If you dont beleive me, try fighting a 3 nos AC cyclone in any of the cap-dependant HACs, both in T2 fits. The brutix can slaughter them too, and a really good pilot can tank out a proph or a ferox to rather extreme levels. They are about equal overall in 1v1, although HACs are better gang/mobile ships.
The Tier 2 bcs just take this a little further.
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Phenom Fighter
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:50:00 -
[8]
Imo with these new tier 2 BC's im finding it hard why anyone would want to buy a HAC.
With the HP boost as well as other things the deimos might have its shine more due to its high dmg output, but, because of the blaster ammo nerf (which is wayyyy ott btw) it might not. -----------------------------
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Phenom Fighter Imo with these new tier 2 BC's im finding it hard why anyone would want to buy a HAC.
With the HP boost as well as other things the deimos might have its shine more due to its high dmg output, but, because of the blaster ammo nerf (which is wayyyy ott btw) it might not.
If HAC will costs below 100kk I will by HAC. HACs have own roles and may be more effective in some situations, but with current market prices BC tier2 are much more reasonable.
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GO MaZ
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Phenom Fighter Imo with these new tier 2 BC's im finding it hard why anyone would want to buy a HAC.
With the HP boost as well as other things the deimos might have its shine more due to its high dmg output, but, because of the blaster ammo nerf (which is wayyyy ott btw) it might not.
No. While the HP boost is nice, it doesnt help the deimos at all. Since it cant fit a plate and doesnt get a rep bonus, it cant tank for ****. You can fit a harbinger with a setup that does the same dps, and has double the hitpoints on armor, shield, and structure and (I believe) a dual rep tank, and you also dont need to get 2k from your target.
Even the brutix can own the deimos now, since it can sustain a dual rep tank on cap charges and again, has double the hitpoints of the deimos. From what I can tell on the test server, you either HAVE to fly with NOS or cap boosters - since the deimos can't use any of these, it fails miserably. Cap is so important now that not being able to use a cap booster means it runs out of cap before you can kill anything above a cruiser . There is a viable setup with electrons, a dual rep tank & a booster, but that means dropping a web or a scram and it doesn't seem to make all that much difference.
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Phenom Fighter
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:20:00 -
[11]
well i know even if the prices of HACs drop, even to 100 mil im still not going to bother tbh. There pointless now, Yea the cerb now has heavy assaults, but so does the drake along with a h00ge tank and rof bonus.
My point was, for PVP, why pay 100mil+ more for a HAC when you can get a Tier 2 BC? The vaga still has its uses tho because of its speed ofc. But vaga doesnt even SCRATCH a drake for example. I couldnt believe it was a vaga hitting me. Felt like a ceptor on a BS.
I liked the stuff they've done to Kali except when you jump in a ship and go out to PVP, then 'ohhh, this game now sux ass'
Looks like were bk to beta peepz -----------------------------
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:25:00 -
[12]
Deimos has been my baby for 2 years, time for another anyway. And with the way the Myrmidon looks ( anyone remember that bit in mechwarrior mercenariers, where you first encounter them.... keep thinking that when thinking of this beauty ) I seriously won't mind flying that exclusively. It looks like pure sex. And if they ever make a t2 version of it I'm gonna be flying that for a long long time to come...
WANNA WHINE??? VISIT ME
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Hayabusa Fury
Caldari Wu-Tang Financial Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Phenom Fighter well i know even if the prices of HACs drop, even to 100 mil im still not going to bother tbh. There pointless now, Yea the cerb now has heavy assaults, but so does the drake along with a h00ge tank and rof bonus.
My point was, for PVP, why pay 100mil+ more for a HAC when you can get a Tier 2 BC? The vaga still has its uses tho because of its speed ofc. But vaga doesnt even SCRATCH a drake for example. I couldnt believe it was a vaga hitting me. Felt like a ceptor on a BS.
I liked the stuff they've done to Kali except when you jump in a ship and go out to PVP, then 'ohhh, this game now sux ass'
Looks like were bk to beta peepz
The sky is falling...
A HAC pilot will never die to a BC pilot unless that HAC pilots wants too. No BC should catch a HAC. So HACs still have the edge in all the same places. The ships have 2 seperate roles. BC are more helpful to a gang as a support warfare ship. Drake will suffer the same as Raven...A day late and a Dollar short when trying to get on Kill mails.
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"I can not recall the number of times my superior intellect has got me knee deep in ****!" --Harely Hayes |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:26:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/11/2006 14:27:09
Originally by: Phenom Fighter I couldnt believe it was a vaga hitting me. Felt like a ceptor on a BS.
Thats basicly because they have raised the shield amount on sisi, without changing the dps. So now ships without high dps will have a tough job breaking shields.
And while the Hurricane isnt better at survival than the Vaga, it has more dps, tank and value, which makes it pretty cool. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Phenom Fighter Imo with these new tier 2 BC's im finding it hard why anyone would want to buy a HAC.
With the HP boost as well as other things the deimos might have its shine more due to its high dmg output, but, because of the blaster ammo nerf (which is wayyyy ott btw) it might not.
No. While the HP boost is nice, it doesnt help the deimos at all. Since it cant fit a plate and doesnt get a rep bonus, it cant tank for ****. You can fit a harbinger with a setup that does the same dps, and has double the hitpoints on armor, shield, and structure and (I believe) a dual rep tank, and you also dont need to get 2k from your target.
Even the brutix can own the deimos now, since it can sustain a dual rep tank on cap charges and again, has double the hitpoints of the deimos. From what I can tell on the test server, you either HAVE to fly with NOS or cap boosters - since the deimos can't use any of these, it fails miserably. Cap is so important now that not being able to use a cap booster means it runs out of cap before you can kill anything above a cruiser . There is a viable setup with electrons, a dual rep tank & a booster, but that means dropping a web or a scram and it doesn't seem to make all that much difference.
This is the final nail in the coffin of the deimos, and most other blasterships, to be honest I'm going for the higher ship classes now.
WANNA WHINE??? VISIT ME
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GO MaZ
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Thats basicly because they have raised the shield amount on sisi, without changing the dps. So now ships without high dps will have a tough job breaking shields.
And while the Hurricane isnt better at survival than the Vaga, it has more dps, tank and value, which makes it pretty cool.
Ships WITH high dps still take an age to break shield or armor. I mean come on... I was flying a neutron II / void hyperion yesterday, sat 2k from a rokh with nos.... I must've been there for a good minute or 2 shooting at his shields before I ended up running out of cap.
Even with a heavy booster its **** hard to break these tanks before running out of cap. I really am not a fan of the hitpoint changes at all, I've been playing on the test server pretty regularly and it just feels all wrong
I also dont see how this is going to work with people who tend to fight outnumbered.... when fights last this long and a WARP TO 0 option was implemented, how are you possibly supposed to kill a target before 20 more hostiles turn up?
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Phenom Fighter
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Ships WITH high dps still take an age to break shield or armor. I mean come on... I was flying a neutron II / void hyperion yesterday, sat 2k from a rokh with nos.... I must've been there for a good minute or 2 shooting at his shields before I ended up running out of cap.
Even with a heavy booster its **** hard to break these tanks before running out of cap. I really am not a fan of the hitpoint changes at all, I've been playing on the test server pretty regularly and it just feels all wrong
I also dont see how this is going to work with people who tend to fight outnumbered.... when fights last this long and a WARP TO 0 option was implemented, how are you possibly supposed to kill a target before 20 more hostiles turn up?
I will say this HP bonus has made Fleet battles better, but because of that made solo combat (mainly pirating) both boring and tedious. Now if you went to gank a BS in a belt they have much more time to shout for help. 9/10 times solo battles will not be finished. Warp in > engage > hostile reinforcments > warp out... Get use to it i say.
HP boost is a terrible idea. PVP is now all in the fleet, this game has lost ANY solo properties it once had that split it up from other MMO's -----------------------------
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Hayabusa Fury
Caldari Wu-Tang Financial Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Thats basicly because they have raised the shield amount on sisi, without changing the dps. So now ships without high dps will have a tough job breaking shields.
And while the Hurricane isnt better at survival than the Vaga, it has more dps, tank and value, which makes it pretty cool.
Ships WITH high dps still take an age to break shield or armor. I mean come on... I was flying a neutron II / void hyperion yesterday, sat 2k from a rokh with nos.... I must've been there for a good minute or 2 shooting at his shields before I ended up running out of cap.
Even with a heavy booster its **** hard to break these tanks before running out of cap. I really am not a fan of the hitpoint changes at all, I've been playing on the test server pretty regularly and it just feels all wrong
I also dont see how this is going to work with people who tend to fight outnumbered.... when fights last this long and a WARP TO 0 option was implemented, how are you possibly supposed to kill a target before 20 more hostiles turn up?
So you want to win all the time while fighting outnumbered? Why can't you have more ships arrive?
All this does is require support ships for a proper gang. Eve has never been about solo kills and now this solidifies that philosophy. I personally go play Counter-Strike or something when I want to solo pwn people. Eve is not the place for it.
Cap will need to be adjusted though. Cap and tank should run out at about the same time 1vs1 within ship class with variances in NOS/Nuet and racial bonuses.
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"I can not recall the number of times my superior intellect has got me knee deep in ****!" --Harely Hayes |
GO MaZ
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hayabusa Fury So you want to win all the time while fighting outnumbered? Why can't you have more ships arrive?
All this does is require support ships for a proper gang. Eve has never been about solo kills and now this solidifies that philosophy. I personally go play Counter-Strike or something when I want to solo pwn people. Eve is not the place for it.
Cap will need to be adjusted though. Cap and tank should run out at about the same time 1vs1 within ship class with variances in NOS/Nuet and racial bonuses.
I never said solo, I said outnumbered - blobs will STILL rule if you cant take a small gang into hostile space because as soon as you try to kill even a MID-SIZE target, your hostiles have 5 minutes to jump into system and engage
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:58:00 -
[20]
T1 BC can already beat hac with right fitting. It was always a tough battle. Tier 2 BC is going to smash the HAC. HAC must run from all forms of BC :D
The question is, what is the cost of manufacturing of a HAC vs. that of a BC??
Today HACs are all but "player owned" faction ships. In that they are owned by those that hold the BPOs. Only people that fly them like candy are those with inside connections to get them. This wont change. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
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Galen Silas
Gallente Digital assassins
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:46:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Galen Silas on 07/11/2006 15:52:37 Edited by: Galen Silas on 07/11/2006 15:51:05 Edited by: Galen Silas on 07/11/2006 15:50:41 The HAC's still serve a purpose, like a lot of people have been saying there smaller, faster, more agile, natural resistances, and they have 4 bonus's. This i think still makes them good ships, but the 20% increase in BC/Command SHip agility is going to bring them to a match.
About Tier 1 BC's being able to kill a hac, thats completely true, I myself am a Brutix pilot and have killed hacs, but it really does depend on the pilot and setup. You can't really compare the Tier 2 Gall BC to a deimos or ishtar either, they nerfed the drone bay of it and left the bonus, its a glorified vexor really, 100 m3 drone bay yay thats 5 more light drones or 2 sets of mediums, whatever you want.
The deimos is still a good blaster boat, the Ishtar is still an excellent drone boat. Other tier 2 BC's are a slight bit overpowered imo. the amarr and caldari got more resistance bonus boats, which i think puts them to par with command ships of there race, even though this is off subject, oh well. You can't say though that the new BC's are going to make HAC's obsolete, will never happen, they don't get the added bonus's, the resistances or the agility and small sig radius.
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GO MaZ
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Galen Silas The deimos is still a good blaster boat
It's never been a good blaster boat... It was CLOSE to being a good blaster boat but this HP boost has taken it even further from "good"
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Kyozoku
Loot
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:59:00 -
[23]
Tier 1 bcs *****hacs 1v1 never mind tier 2. The new ships wont make a difference.
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Vivien Voy
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 07/11/2006 13:13:42 HACS have been obsolete for a long time its just most people havenĘt realised Command Ships are both tougher to kill and do more damage along with being a lot cheaper to buy.
if people realized, you could say those "cheap" prices goodbye, also there's the skill requirement on the CS which simply limits them a lot more than HACs. Now there's even talk about the tier 2 BC making the Field CS obsolete (mainly regarding the Drake) - both theories aren't totally wrong (considering the DPS gap is small and the ships a lot cheaper and a lot less skill intensive) but they also fail to acknowledge that T2 ships aren't simply "bigger badder better" versions of T1 vessels, they have a niche for which there's no T1 replacement (agility, survivability and firepower on the HAC, survivability and command modules on the CS). And for these reasons, I'm all for the tier 2 BC to take their role as pwnzor platforms so the prices may fall to more reasonable levels, for the T2 ships to be used in their intended role instead of solopwnmobiles everyone and their mom HAVE TO fly in order to stay competitive
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:17:00 -
[25]
tier 2 bcs...
drake gives good spanking to everything, even close range bs (i've seen it take down ac pest... dunno if guy had pp or emp ammo though).
It was on sisi so setup was maybe little unrealistic but eve isn't solo game anyway.
Only ship that could easily wtfpwn it was raven. ----------------------------------------------- Remove flashes from capital torps.
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Erik Pathfinder
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: DeadDuck After some testing I'm reaching the conclusion that the tier 2 BC are about to put HACS obsolete.
The superior PG/CPU/Slot layout of the BC vs Hacs makes them actually superior to the untill now all powerfull HAC's.
I can see still room for the Cerberus/Vagabonds but all the others are inferior to this new ships. Even more the prices and insurance payouts makes them the logic choice to go to combat.
Please discuss
By this argument, they were obsolete from day one, since battleships are superior in this way too. Destroyers also made assault ships obsolote, right? Oh wait...
They are specialised ships, and they are deadly at what they do. A battlecruiser may be able to fit better or tank better or shoot better, but not all at once and the heavy assault cruisers are still faster and more agile, something many people value more.
Also, don't sneeze in the direction of your breakfast plate, your keyboard will get covered in crumbs. ---------------
"Run free little vermin, the city is yours!" - Quimby |
DeadDuck
Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Erik Pathfinder
Originally by: DeadDuck After some testing I'm reaching the conclusion that the tier 2 BC are about to put HACS obsolete.
The superior PG/CPU/Slot layout of the BC vs Hacs makes them actually superior to the untill now all powerfull HAC's.
I can see still room for the Cerberus/Vagabonds but all the others are inferior to this new ships. Even more the prices and insurance payouts makes them the logic choice to go to combat.
Please discuss
By this argument, they were obsolete from day one, since battleships are superior in this way too. Destroyers also made assault ships obsolote, right? Oh wait...
They are specialised ships, and they are deadly at what they do. A battlecruiser may be able to fit better or tank better or shoot better, but not all at once and the heavy assault cruisers are still faster and more agile, something many people value more.
Also, don't sneeze in the direction of your breakfast plate, your keyboard will get covered in crumbs.
You know that is totally diferent ... the tracking of the large weapons is to slow to actually harm a fast HAC, they cant hit them at all, you can nos the hacs, put the drones all over the hacs but in the end the damage done is a fraction of their potential.
The BC use weapons with a lot better tracking and have now armour and shields comparable to the BS of RMR.... so their potential to make damage to other targets including HAcs is a lot better.
Sure the HACS have 4 bonus and the tier 2 BC only 2, what I'm saying is that the bigger number of slots/rigs, can and will be used to balance the bonus advantages of the Hacs.
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xPreatorianx
Caldari Immortalis Silens Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hayabusa Fury
Originally by: Phenom Fighter well i know even if the prices of HACs drop, even to 100 mil im still not going to bother tbh. There pointless now, Yea the cerb now has heavy assaults, but so does the drake along with a h00ge tank and rof bonus.
My point was, for PVP, why pay 100mil+ more for a HAC when you can get a Tier 2 BC? The vaga still has its uses tho because of its speed ofc. But vaga doesnt even SCRATCH a drake for example. I couldnt believe it was a vaga hitting me. Felt like a ceptor on a BS.
I liked the stuff they've done to Kali except when you jump in a ship and go out to PVP, then 'ohhh, this game now sux ass'
Looks like were bk to beta peepz
The sky is falling...
A HAC pilot will never die to a BC pilot unless that HAC pilots wants too. No BC should catch a HAC. So HACs still have the edge in all the same places. The ships have 2 seperate roles. BC are more helpful to a gang as a support warfare ship. Drake will suffer the same as Raven...A day late and a Dollar short when trying to get on Kill mails.
Try flying a fully fitted sac and running into a fully fitted harbinger usually the harbinger wins wich is total ****!
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goodby4u
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:52:00 -
[29]
Hacs have nise dps and tank whilst their speed and quickstrike capabilities arent harmed in the process,what is harmed is their price and uninsurability.
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:11:00 -
[30]
lol @ HACs tbh.
All we need is the Hurricane to go 4k/s with just a MWD II and 3 local hull instabs and every HAC will have a superior BC variant.
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