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Tabor Murn
Kaitaua Whamere
93
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Posted - 2015.05.07 18:49:32 -
[61] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Tabor Murn wrote:Do you think of them as less than Minmatar? Have they turned their backs on their tribes to follow the false god of a cult who delights in the destruction of all other cultures?
The fact that you even have to ask this question shows how out of touch with our Kin you are. Many of them do, including the chosen representatives of their Tribes. It is their right according to the principles of Tribal Autonomy to do as they wish in this regard.
Anyone who turns their back on these Tribes because the religion they follow is placing religion above kinship. That is a concept which is less than Minmatar. |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
346
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Posted - 2015.05.07 19:07:02 -
[62] - Quote
Tabor Murn wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Tabor Murn wrote:Do you think of them as less than Minmatar? Have they turned their backs on their tribes to follow the false god of a cult who delights in the destruction of all other cultures? The fact that you even have to ask this question shows how out of touch with our Kin you are. Many of them do, including the chosen representatives of their Tribes. It is their right according to the principles of Tribal Autonomy to do as they wish in this regard. Rhetorical Question....
Tabor Murn wrote: Anyone who turns their back on these Tribes because the religion they follow is placing religion above kinship. That is a concept which is less than Minmatar. Basically, what I said.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Tabor Murn
Kaitaua Whamere
93
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Posted - 2015.05.07 19:19:36 -
[63] - Quote
Clearly you missed the implication. I was suggesting that you are no better than the Amarrians you so despise.
Your alliance's famous slogan is "We come for our people." not "We come for our people, except for the ones that worship the Amarr God." |
Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
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Posted - 2015.05.07 19:33:46 -
[64] - Quote
Tabor Murn wrote:Clearly you missed the implication. I was suggesting that you are no better than the Amarrians you so despise.
Your alliance's famous slogan is "We come for our people." not "We come for our people, except for the ones that worship the Amarr God."
Yeah! and Except for the ones held by Nauplius too!
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ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
655
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Posted - 2015.05.07 19:50:23 -
[65] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Tabor Murn wrote: Anyone who turns their back on these Tribes because the religion they follow is placing religion above kinship. That is a concept which is less than Minmatar. Basically, what I said.
So....everyone is agreed then that regardless of the masters you serve or the god you worship, you are born Minmatar, and will die Minmatar? |
Svetlana Laknaya
Hoplite Brigade
0
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Posted - 2015.05.07 19:56:20 -
[66] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Tabor Murn wrote:Clearly you missed the implication. I was suggesting that you are no better than the Amarrians you so despise.
Your alliance's famous slogan is "We come for our people." not "We come for our people, except for the ones that worship the Amarr God." Yeah! and with respect to U'K, Except for the ones held by Nauplius too!
While you are clearly on the wrong side, I must grudgingly admit my respect for you Ms. Daphiti. My people deserve to be free, and I will do all of I can to see that happen, and I am sure my brothers and sisters in Ushra'Kahn feel that way too, even if I can't speak for them. |
Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
84
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Posted - 2015.05.07 20:11:55 -
[67] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote: By questioning Her Imperial Majesty, he questions the Theology Council's decision to confirm her as Empress. By questioning Her Imperial Majesty, he questions the authority bestowed upon her by Scripture and thus questions Scripture. And by questioning Her Imperial Majesty, he questions the Voice of God and thus questions God.
You know, I had this big sweeping history lesson written out that would have shown you exactly where you are mistaken.
Then I decided your lack of a proper education isn't my responsibility and I deleted it.
For those interested, look up the history of Emperor Zaragram II, the Council of Apostles vs Emperor Heideran V's moral reforms, Garkeh Khanid and the Succession Trial of Doriam Kor-Azor. Then get back to me on how solid Amarr traditions are.
YC105 wasn't that long ago. The succession was won by Doriam Kor-Azor. Jamyl Sarum lost. She died. Yet she returned five years later with a Drifter-like super weapon and assumed the Throne. If the Council hadn't ratified her position, she would have been burned at the stake. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the Council's decision was unanimous.
So among Holders like Max Singularity, there is room for debate and discussion. Among Khanid, most certainly. No Emperor's right to rule is carved in stone. God decides.
And please don't talk to me about the Reclaiming. It's important to the 24th because it gives you an excuse to hunt Matari in the Bleaks. Since the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement it really hasn't been a thing outside of Khanid. What, if any reclaiming has occurred since the Yulai Accords? Even the Empress has cooled on the idea. The Reclaiming isn't about people, it's about souls. Individual Holders may emancipate a slave and his family at any time, if the Holder feels he has proven his faith and loyalty to the Empire. Additionally, the Royal Heirs or even the Emperor himself may make a decree freeing slaves of certain generations or vocations throughout their holdings. Max just wants to see that happen on a larger scale. I don't, but but I can see his viewpoint. This is called "Understanding."
You are not required to like Max. You are not required to like his message. But you are required to allow him to speak until the Empress, the Council or the Law decides he's crossed the line. And they've refused to comment on Max's words.
I know this is a bit of an odd suggestion, but maybe if you feel Max is in error you could try constructive methods to bring your viewpoints in line with each other. This is called "Diplomacy."
And that is how Capsuleers communicate without lasers.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
346
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Posted - 2015.05.07 20:22:10 -
[68] - Quote
Tabor Murn wrote:Clearly you missed the implication. I was suggesting that you are no better than the Amarrians you so despise.
Your alliance's famous slogan is "We come for our people." not "We come for our people, except for the ones that worship the Amarr God." You're under the impression I hate Amarrians, you're wrong. I hate the religion that says non-Amarrians are to be subjected to "Reclaiming", the religion that uses a "God" to justify destroying entire populations of planets, enslaving generations of my people, and wiping out centuries of our culture. That is what I hate, and the ones willing to act upon it. The individuals are easy enough to get along with, I even fly with a few. Good people all of them. As for our alliance's slogan.... It's not my personal mantra.
ValentinaDLM wrote: So....everyone is agreed then that regardless of the masters you serve or the god you worship, you are born Minmatar, and will die Minmatar? No. If you make an enemy of the Tribes, you are no Minmatar. If you seek to enslave us, you are no Minmatar. If you talk during a holo, you are no Minmatar. You may serve who you see fit as you see fit to serve them. But don't try to force others on pain of death and/or suffering to do the same.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1483
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Posted - 2015.05.07 20:43:45 -
[69] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:You know, I had this big sweeping history lesson written out that would have shown you exactly where you are mistaken.
Then I decided your lack of a proper education isn't my responsibility and I deleted it.
For those interested, look up the history of Emperor Zaragram II, the Council of Apostles vs Emperor Heideran V's moral reforms, Garkeh Khanid and the Succession Trial of Doriam Kor-Azor. Then get back to me on how solid Amarr traditions are.
There was no Emperor Zaragram II. The heretic to which you are referring, who has no name as he was struck, was self-proclaimed and never ruled over Amarr.
Emperor Heideran V was the lawful emperor in his time. The Council of Apostles opposed him and attempted to place a usurper on the throne. They were removed for their treason.
His Majesty Khanid II committed grave heresy and he should consider himself very lucky that Her Imperial Majesty was so merciful as to offer him forgiveness.
It is never appropriate to question the emperor.
Quote:YC105 wasn't that long ago. The succession was won by Doriam Kor-Azor. Jamyl Sarum lost. She died. Yet she returned five years later with a Drifter-like super weapon and assumed the Throne. If the Council hadn't ratified her position, she would have been burned at the stake. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the Council's decision was unanimous.
She returned to us by the grace of God. She would not have been confirmed by the heirs and the Theology Council if her ascension was not the will of God.
Quote:And please don't talk to me about the Reclaiming. It's important to the 24th because it gives you an excuse to hunt Matari in the Bleaks. Since the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement it really hasn't been a thing outside of Khanid. What, if any reclaiming has occurred since the Yulai Accords? Even the Empress has cooled on the idea. The Reclaiming isn't about people, it's about souls. Individual Holders may emancipate a slave and his family at any time, if the Holder feels he has proven his faith and loyalty to the Empire. Additionally, the Royal Heirs or even the Emperor himself may make a decree freeing slaves of certain generations or vocations throughout their holdings. Max just wants to see that happen on a larger scale. I don't, but but I can see his viewpoint. This is called "Understanding.
It is important to Amarr. The Reclaiming is ongoing. Just because it is no longer being fought with lasers does not mean it has stopped. The Reclaiming is our divine mandate from God. It is the Destiny of Faith. There are many missionaries in every empire working to Reclaim lost souls daily. This is a task that every Amarr must aid in, and I do what I can to bring those I associate with into the faith.
The Reclaiming has not ended and will not until all of creation is united under God.
Quote:You are not required to like Max. You are not required to like his message. But you are required to allow him to speak until the Empress, the Council or the Law decides he's crossed the line. And they've refused to comment on Max's words.
I am required by my Lords in PIE to oppose those who speak against the Empress. Max Singularity speaks against the Empress.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
502
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Posted - 2015.05.07 21:08:53 -
[70] - Quote
There is an ancient Jin-Mei curse. It is rather hard to translate it properly, because it references reincarnation, karma and such alien things. But, simplified, it goes like:
May you live in interesting times.
We certainly live in interesting times, aren't we? We all?
The world changes! Are you ready? The world changes, and we all must change or die!
*gives out a drunken laugh, screen fades to black*. |
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Markus Error
Her Majesty's Crown Corporation
41
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Posted - 2015.05.07 21:26:42 -
[71] - Quote
I'm agreeing with Pilot Toov here. You can start life as a Minmatar... but that doesn't mean you'll end - or continue - it as such.
Turning your back on the Matari and siding with the old enemy is one of two things. Treason, when done willingly, or indlctrination. If treason, you deserve, and get, nothing but contempt from your former kin. If indoctrination... we can try to at least teach you of the Matari and leave you to your own decision.
As to the cultral Reclaiming... it's an improvment, at least. Y'see, I've no issue with folks who just want to peacefully spread their religion. If you preach until everyone worships as you, cool - though you may need to wait a while - but busting out the lasers when they disagree isn't really the best way forward, perhaps. Taking slaves and trying to crush their culture and essentially indoctrinate them isn't either, really.
I'm a believer in the spirits and their messages, and in the mysticism associated with. Doesn't mean I need to interpret their messages as an absolute divine mandate.
Pator IV - Moon 6 - School of Hard Knocks
Prof. Markus 'Error' Sierra, Cynicism Deptartment
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Max Singularity
House Singularity
126
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Posted - 2015.05.07 21:41:42 -
[72] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote: This is called "Understanding. You are not required to like Max. You are not required to like his message. But you are required to allow him to speak until the Empress, the Council or the Law decides he's crossed the line. And that is how Capsuleers communicate without lasers.
No one follows me, when I'm standing beside such great voices. You Sinjin Mokk,are the Clarion of Reason and speak clear.
Harbinger of Faith his Holiness Maximilian Singularity of the Sixth Empire, Pope of New Eden
-First of his name-
((My doctors try to tell me Eve is not real... pffft... I've seen the YouTube Video. Eve is Real))
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
958
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Posted - 2015.05.07 21:45:11 -
[73] - Quote
How do you make the difference between indoctrination, and treason ? |
Markus Error
Her Majesty's Crown Corporation
42
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Posted - 2015.05.07 21:59:11 -
[74] - Quote
Treason is siding with the enemy willingly and withput coercion on their part. Indoctrination is being, well, indoctrinated to their way of thinking - generally when one is raised as a slave, or similar.
Pator IV - Moon 6 - School of Hard Knocks
Prof. Markus 'Error' Sierra, Cynicism Deptartment
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Max Singularity
House Singularity
126
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Posted - 2015.05.07 21:59:15 -
[75] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:I am required by my Lords in PIE to oppose those who speak against the Empress. Max Singularity speaks against the Empress.
And this is why your ears are closed and mouth open wide by so long forced obedience of your former slave psyche. You even bring discord to your Minmatar brethren here as demonstrated. #typical
I speak of legal process and warmongers of your ilk are banging war drums.
Be prepared if we answer those drums, but know it's you and your Butterfly Effect that is a cause of war. WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER. We await an answer in RATIONAL discussion, not pro, not against... but explanation and that explanation needs to come not from you but upon the query. I am Kador (mother) and Tash-Murkon (father) it is my right to query. A Just cause.
You offer no solution but to lie on our backs and spread our legs to the heavens. You can keep your Status-quo as that maybe the position you favor. Not I. Oppose me all you want, the squall approaches closer despite your deprecations. I had great hope your voice had a valid counter. Had.
Good day.
Edit: I'll still give you a hug because you found God, bless your heart. Being a tad confused is not reason enough for me to withhold my affections for your great achievement. I hope thee can find Kindness as well. Good day.
Harbinger of Faith his Holiness Maximilian Singularity of the Sixth Empire, Pope of New Eden
-First of his name-
((My doctors try to tell me Eve is not real... pffft... I've seen the YouTube Video. Eve is Real))
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
340
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Posted - 2015.05.07 22:01:38 -
[76] - Quote
The Voluval decides if you are Matari, not you people.
-áFear The Tribes
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Markus Error
Her Majesty's Crown Corporation
42
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Posted - 2015.05.07 22:07:16 -
[77] - Quote
I'd argue the matari people as a whole collectively decide that. I was merely stating my own views.
Pator IV - Moon 6 - School of Hard Knocks
Prof. Markus 'Error' Sierra, Cynicism Deptartment
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Tabor Murn
Kaitaua Whamere
94
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Posted - 2015.05.07 22:58:55 -
[78] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:The Voluval decides if you are Matari, not you people.
We went to war to save a lot of people who had never even heard about the voluval from genocide. I would argue the Voluval is an affirmation of one's place in Matari society. After all, children are still considered one's kin. |
Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
43356
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:30:38 -
[79] - Quote
Empire and religion, I really can't think of anything that churns my stomach harder.
Hmm, well ... I guess that's not true. But I won't go there.
Max, while your mission and the things of which you speak hold little personal relevance to me, or bring any impact to my family's way of life and chosen space, I find your manner, views and attitude very refreshing in this environment and that is enough reason for me to add my own little hands to those who applaud your stance.
Max Singularity wrote:It's time. Question me. Question Jamyl. Question authority. This, especially. Question everything ... and everyone.
May whatever God or force you believe in bless and keep you, Mr Singularity.
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
Gû+ -+eep+¦ng -+y pro-++¦-òe -ò+¦nce 17|12|116 GÖÑ
Gû+ wor-+-+ole d+¦ary + c-+arac-éer -¦+¦o-ò
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
87
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Posted - 2015.05.08 00:37:05 -
[80] - Quote
Max Singularity wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote: This is called "Understanding. You are not required to like Max. You are not required to like his message. But you are required to allow him to speak until the Empress, the Council or the Law decides he's crossed the line. And that is how Capsuleers communicate without lasers.
No one follows me, when I'm standing beside such great voices. You Sinjin Mokk,are the Clarion of Reason and speak clear.
Thank you, but I am not your Herald, Sir.
I am a Khanid who has seen the Empire ***** itself out to CONCORD for far, too long.
While I"m disappointed in people like Lt. Kernher, I'm never really surprised. I was like that once. One day, she'll have enough wisdom and experience to see the galaxy as it is; that faith in Empire can be separate from Faith in God. Her masters, those who should know better, have no such excuse.
I pray she lives long enough to grow into her wisdom. I pray we all live as long.
I am an Archangel. I work outside the law, because I could no longer keep my oath to my God, King and people without breaking the laws of Empire and CONCORD. My King faced this choice too and I admire and try to emulate his honor and convictions. CONCORD and Amarr laws are easily broken. And I can buy forgiveness with them for a pile of ISK. That the Amarr Bloc does not see that our system is broken, that they cannot see the rot at the heart of the Empire, is tragic. But it is not my path to excise that cancer.
It may be your path though.
"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - The Scriptures, Prophet Kuria, Paladin's Creed.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
958
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Posted - 2015.05.08 10:24:46 -
[81] - Quote
Markus Error wrote:Treason is siding with the enemy willingly and withput coercion on their part. Indoctrination is being, well, indoctrinated to their way of thinking - generally when one is raised as a slave, or similar.
So, what do you make of the Ammatars then (the current generations, not the first Nefantar collaborators) ? Traitors, or indoctrinated ? |
Devilish Ledoux
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
105
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Posted - 2015.05.08 11:12:57 -
[82] - Quote
Praise the Emperor and pass the frequency crystals! |
Markus Error
Her Majesty's Crown Corporation
44
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Posted - 2015.05.08 13:14:32 -
[83] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Markus Error wrote:Treason is siding with the enemy willingly and withput coercion on their part. Indoctrination is being, well, indoctrinated to their way of thinking - generally when one is raised as a slave, or similar. So, what do you make of the Ammatars then (the current generations, not the first Nefantar collaborators) ? Traitors, or indoctrinated ? Indoctrinated, mostly. During that original invasion all those centuries ago, they were collaborators, and thus, traitors; more recent generations, however, have been raised into the Amarr way of thinking. While not intrinsically bad, the Amarr way of thinking involved co quest, forced conversion, and such. And that's terrible.
"The spirits are not the wise elders many are led to believe. The spirits are not the almighty. The spirits are not our gods, nor our inferiors; they are our compaions. And with them, the will of the Minmatar is unbreakable." -The Shaman's Way
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
958
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Posted - 2015.05.08 16:02:36 -
[84] - Quote
So, every amarrian citizen is indoctrinated ? They indoctrinate each other ? |
Markus Error
Her Majesty's Crown Corporation
44
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Posted - 2015.05.08 16:22:21 -
[85] - Quote
They were never Matari in the first place... but it seems they're effectively indoctrinated by their religion, yes.
"The spirits are not the wise elders many are led to believe. The spirits are not the almighty. The spirits are not our gods, nor our inferiors; they are our companions. And with them, the will of the Minmatar is unbreakable." -The Shaman's Way
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
958
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Posted - 2015.05.08 19:48:37 -
[86] - Quote
And the Minmatar are not ? |
Markus Error
Her Majesty's Crown Corporation
45
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Posted - 2015.05.08 21:05:56 -
[87] - Quote
Considering we lack a single unified religion, have a humber of atheists, and are generally less 'God told me to do it' than the Amarr, I'm going to say no, we're not indoctrinated by our or your religion.
"The spirits are not the wise elders many are led to believe. The spirits are not the almighty. The spirits are not our gods, nor our inferiors; they are our companions. And with them, the will of the Minmatar is unbreakable." -The Shaman's Way
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4797
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Posted - 2015.05.08 21:22:24 -
[88] - Quote
Markus Error wrote:Considering we lack a single unified religion, have a humber of atheists, and are generally less 'God told me to do it' than the Amarr, I'm going to say no, we're not indoctrinated by our or your religion.
Everyone is indoctrinated into the culture they're raised in. Some religions place more focus on religion than others, but the Matari are not different in this regard.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Claudia Osyn
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
1199
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Posted - 2015.05.08 21:29:44 -
[89] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Markus Error wrote:Considering we lack a single unified religion, have a humber of atheists, and are generally less 'God told me to do it' than the Amarr, I'm going to say no, we're not indoctrinated by our or your religion. Everyone is indoctrinated into the culture they're raised in. Some religions place more focus on religion than others, but the Matari are not different in this regard. The great Goddess of the IGS, Claudia Amelia Testarossa Wingate Lillithella Osyn MDCXXXIV, refutes this claim. Indoctrination does not exist in the Cult of Claudia and I order my followers to be offended at the notion.
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
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Kale Silence
Sebietar Scavenging and Hacking
83
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Posted - 2015.05.08 22:26:18 -
[90] - Quote
I haven't seen this much jabber over the IGS about some random person since nauplius misbehaving.
Also, the boil under your armpit? That's what would offend you? Really?
Not the fact that your words literally hurt to read because your translator has to work overtime to get what you have to say across? Like I didn't understand half of what the f**k you were talking about, and the other just sounded like Vaari. Although a lot less intelligent-sounding. (And that's saying a lot) Like what the f**k, man? Do the Amarr not teach people how to talk?
I'm no expert, but this guy seems a little... f***ing insane.
To put it mildly.
"Love me or hate me, but money don't judge me. I don't care about your opinion, unless you intend to pay me. Then I care."
- Anonymous
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