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Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
365
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Posted - 2015.05.05 08:18:39 -
[1] - Quote
I'm wondering about the Sell Orders forum for a longer time now, so someone explain to me please why in (more or less obvious) scam threads moderators delete every post that calls out the scammer.
I mean not that I would have a problem with scamming per se but it looks like ccp is activly helping the scammers which seems a bit odd to me. |
Antihrist Pripravnik
T-AFK and counting
909
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Posted - 2015.05.05 09:08:37 -
[2] - Quote
Well, technically, I'm not sure if this thread is a discussion of moderation, but I'll respond anyway.
Scams are allowed in EVE and you are allowed to scam in the Sell Orders thread. There are some limitations of course, like scamming the PLEX for Good drive or scamming in Character bazaar, but everything else is a fair game.
In-game politics is allowed in eve as well.
Now, imagine a situation where discussions of whether something is a scam or not take place in a Sell Orders section of the forums. That section has huge amount of updates throughout the day. You can post something now and it will most likely fall on the 3rd or 4th page this time tomorrow. That's with the current rules - one bump per day and only allowed inquiries which are directly related to the sale thread (which does not count the meta game, in-game politics or discussions of whether it's a scam or not).
If you allow discussions about scams and by that also allow "forum PvP' in form of disrupting the thread of your competitor by claiming that he/she is a scammer, we will have a really messy situation in the Sell Orders section of the forums. Keep in mind that Sell Orders is primarily used by players who want to sell or buy something. There are a lot of other ways and places where you can find out if the poster is a scammer or not, including but not limited to "Crime & punishment" section of the forum.
As for the sell orders themselves, it's up to you to be smart and informed enough if you want to do any in-game business in EVE, including if you want to trust the seller in a Sell Orders thread.
So, bottom line is: it's not that CCP or ISD (who, by the way are awesome volunteers who keep the forums clean and civilized) actively helps the scammers - they are simply doing their best to make each of the forum section as useful as possible. The fact that discussions about potential scams are forbidden in the Sell Orders is simply a compromise in order to squeeze as much functionality and usefulness out of Sell Orders section of the forums. |
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
164
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Posted - 2015.05.05 09:43:19 -
[3] - Quote
Sure, scams are "allowed" in EVE, meaning CCP doesn't enact policy to make them against the EULA and TOS. However, don't miss the nuance of the OP. Does CCP "get to" further people's scams - become an active participant? If that's the case, then they would be favoring certain players over certain other players, no? And, that would not be "fair" in the classic sense of the word - pleasing unto the senses. However, the salient point is, they would be assisting some customers to victimize other paying customers, which is just bad business sense. To some degree it may be "legal" to behave this way, but is it "prudent"?
I survived Win95
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
23537
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Posted - 2015.05.05 09:46:30 -
[4] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:I'm wondering about the Sell Orders forum for a longer time now, so someone explain to me please why in (more or less obvious) scam threads moderators delete every post that calls out the scammer.
I mean not that I would have a problem with scamming per se but it looks like ccp is activly helping the scammers which seems a bit odd to me. This thread is a scam. You're a scammer.
Can you see what I did there?
DOES YELLING ANNOY YOU ?
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Corpses4Drifters
CLICK THE LINK !! YOU LIKE THE IDEA !!
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
164
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Posted - 2015.05.05 09:49:05 -
[5] - Quote
No, Sol. Only you can see what you did there. It may be time to make that visit you've been putting off.
I survived Win95
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Grimorie Jaw
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.05.05 09:49:31 -
[6] - Quote
OP scammed me for 5 Bil ISK
I was buying Incursion fit Machariel from him for 5 bil.
He contracted just the hull and told me to L2P.
Scammer or worst kind |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
366
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Posted - 2015.05.05 10:27:30 -
[7] - Quote
@Antihrist Pripravnik All good and valid points. But still they help the scammers with this. For example this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=408885 You see an OP advertising some supers and accepting some noname third parties (obviously a scam). Then you see an armada of alts posting how they successfully traded with the op and in between a few ISD post saying they removed off topic posts. I guess those "Off topic" posts were people pointing out that all the posts about successfull trade were likly alts.
So maybe if they don't want people to speak out against the offer, they shouldn't let speak people out for it neither.
@Solecist Project and Grimorie Jaw Yes people can just randomly acuse others of scamming. But there is a diffrence in just acusing someone or pointing out things that don't add up about the offer. |
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1650
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Posted - 2015.05.05 10:34:13 -
[8] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:No, Sol. Only you can see what you did there. It may be time to make that visit you've been putting off.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
T-AFK and counting
909
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Posted - 2015.05.05 12:50:28 -
[9] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:@Antihrist Pripravnik All good and valid points. But still they help the scammers with this. For example this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=408885 You see an OP advertising some supers and accepting some noname third parties (obviously a scam). Then you see an armada of alts posting how they successfully traded with the op and in between a few ISD post saying they removed off topic posts. I guess those "Off topic" posts were people pointing out that all the posts about successfull trade were likly alts. So maybe if they don't want people to speak out against the offer, they shouldn't let speak people out for it neither.
They, however, want you to report excessive bumping.
Try to report the post if you believe that those are alts, or even submit a support ticket, since bumping with an alt or even "friendly bump" is against the forum rules. ISD are volunteers and they are not employed by CCP, so I don't think they have enough resources to determine if someone is bumping with an alt. Submitting a support ticket under "Forum moderation", however, goes to Game Masters who are employed by CCP.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
23540
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Posted - 2015.05.05 13:13:41 -
[10] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:@Antihrist Pripravnik All good and valid points. But still they help the scammers with this. For example this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=408885 You see an OP advertising some supers and accepting some noname third parties (obviously a scam). Then you see an armada of alts posting how they successfully traded with the op and in between a few ISD post saying they removed off topic posts. I guess those "Off topic" posts were people pointing out that all the posts about successfull trade were likly alts. So maybe if they don't want people to speak out against the offer, they shouldn't let speak people out for it neither. @Solecist Project and Grimorie Jaw Yes people can just randomly acuse others of scamming. But there is a diffrence in just acusing someone or pointing out things that don't add up about the offer. That reminds me of all those people who post in C&P ... ... and try to make other legitimate players look bad.
There's a shitton of dorks out there accusing other players of corp theft!
I'm really glad we have the Court of Crime and Punishment for these cases. Maybe you should install something equal.
DOES YELLING ANNOY YOU ?
LIKE MY IDEA BELOW AND I WILL REMOVE IT !!
Corpses4Drifters
CLICK THE LINK !! YOU LIKE THE IDEA !!
FOR EVEN MORE PLAYER DRIVEN CONTENT !!
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
14334
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Posted - 2015.05.05 14:02:42 -
[11] - Quote
It should be added that many scammers report any post that calls them out and claim the post is trolling their thread or trying to ruin it.
It's hard for ISD to know if it's a troll or real post, so they remove them all to make it easier, which comes down as a pretty dumb thing since the threads do look cleaner.
As others pointed out, there's other ways to also reasearch a seller, C&P being one, using http://eve-search.com/ to see the original posts and such is another.
I generally view a sell thread that has lots of deleted posts as not someone who I want to deal with anyway. A seller that isn't trying to do anything shady usually have no need to remove troll/lie posts from its thread anyway, because after all it's pretty easy to spot trolls (unless I just have a really good gut feeling).
/c
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
23555
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Posted - 2015.05.05 14:06:19 -
[12] - Quote
It could also be that the ISDs are in charge of hindering people from denying scammers gameplay.
They basically move the responsibility into the buyers hands.
And that's how it should be anyway.
DOES YELLING ANNOY YOU ?
LIKE MY IDEA BELOW AND I WILL REMOVE IT !!
Corpses4Drifters
CLICK THE LINK !! YOU LIKE THE IDEA !!
FOR EVEN MORE PLAYER DRIVEN CONTENT !!
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4469
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Posted - 2015.05.05 15:03:13 -
[13] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Well, technically, I'm not sure if this thread is a discussion of moderation, Yes, it is. And yes, moderating in the Sell Orders forum is a very difficult balancing act, as we do our utmost best to be unbiased.
That said, thread locked.
The Rules: 12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.
The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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