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Altemi Calabre
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:32:00 -
[1]
Greetings all,
I was curious why the decision was made to toss insta's for a total replacement with the "Warp to 0" option.
Don't get me wrong, toasting insta's in their current bookmark format is not only a good idea but mandated by the impact it's been having on the systems and everyone's gameplay. Not to mention the arguable impact of the 'bookmark economy'.
However, what I found curious was the choice to replace them in their entirety with the 'warp to 0km' option. Given the nature of ship differences, it struck me as always odd that the disadvantage of a slow behemoth ship, the fact that it is indeed slow, is a completely circumventable restriction and trade-off. I, in all honesty, expected something that would certainly move all ships closer to their target, say 5km, but not actually the complete removal of 'conventional drives' to navigate safely to the jump gate or dockable location like an outpost/starbase.
I'm no pirate or gate camper and was purely approching the problem from a 'ship features' point of view. There are clear tradeoffs made in fitting a ship for speed or maneuverability as opposed ot more cargo, armor, and so on. Why is it the 'repair' of the insta system that, on the surface, completely undermines the sense of legitimate feature trade off choices, was repaired in a fashion that similarly allows slow ships to ignore the very fact that their speed and poor handling was supposed to be their liability?
Am I out to lunch on this or does anyone else see this the same way? I would have thought as well that a 5m warp distance would have placated many a combat pilot as a fair chance for predator and prey alike to engage or not at a gate or other location as 'fair opportunity', though I concede totally haulers would be in trouble if fitting for pure cargo... but wouldn't that have been the point?
Thoughts or requests for the dev's on this issue?
Altemi ~ Why is it those with the greatest responsibility to make good decisions so often seem the least capable or inclined?
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:36:00 -
[2]
/signed
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Virsalura
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:39:00 -
[3]
Um, because everyone would want to keep their insta bm's?
It's gotta be warp to 0 or it won't solve the insta bm db problem.
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:40:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Virsalura Um, because everyone would want to keep their insta bm's?
It's gotta be warp to 0 or it won't solve the insta bm db problem.
who says that said bm would work?
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:42:00 -
[5]
There is no good reason to land 5 km from a gate. It will take most ships only seconds to reach the gate. No way pirates will have the time to kill it unless they blob it to the extreme. I once ran a gatecamp with 2 sniping battleships and had plenty of time to tank them in a t1 cruiser until I got to the gate (15 km).
So no, your suggestion will just annoy people. Warp to 0 is the best solution, and then pirates camp the other side instead.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
There is no good reason to land 5 km from a gate. It will take most ships only seconds to reach the gate. No way pirates will have the time to kill it unless they blob it to the extreme. I once ran a gatecamp with 2 sniping battleships and had plenty of time to tank them in a t1 cruiser until I got to the gate (15 km).
So no, your suggestion will just annoy people. Warp to 0 is the best solution, and then pirates camp the other side instead.
there is one perfectly good reason. it will slow down the bs gangs as opposed to bc/cruiser/frig gangs.
all those sniping bs fleets with no mwd or ab will suddenly become vulnerable.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nahia Senne
there is one perfectly good reason. it will slow down the bs gangs as opposed to bc/cruiser/frig gangs.
all those sniping bs fleets with no mwd or ab will suddenly become vulnerable.
Yes, but what reason is there to slow them down when travelling? Does it make the game more fun or more balanced? And... hmm. You want all battleships to move slowly to make life a pain for the ones who snipe?
Ehm. I dont think those are good suggestions. You just want to punish the snipers.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
DarkFox12
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:49:00 -
[8]
can people stop making new threats about the warp to 0km change please. look around the forums for 2 minutes and you will find 2-3 others.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:54:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/11/2006 18:55:01
Originally by: DarkFox12 can people stop making new threats about the warp to 0km change please. look around the forums for 2 minutes and you will find 2-3 others.
O RLY? :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Arushia
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Altemi Calabre Greetings all,
I was curious why the decision was made to toss insta's for a total replacement with the "Warp to 0" option.
Don't get me wrong, toasting insta's in their current bookmark format is not only a good idea but mandated by the impact it's been having on the systems and everyone's gameplay. Not to mention the arguable impact of the 'bookmark economy'.
However, what I found curious was the choice to replace them in their entirety with the 'warp to 0km' option. Given the nature of ship differences, it struck me as always odd that the disadvantage of a slow behemoth ship, the fact that it is indeed slow, is a completely circumventable restriction and trade-off.
The major disadvantage to a slow ship with instas or warp-to-0 is the time it takes to align and warp as it leaves the incoming gate.
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:11:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 07/11/2006 20:12:27
Originally by: Arushia
Originally by: Altemi Calabre Greetings all,
I was curious why the decision was made to toss insta's for a total replacement with the "Warp to 0" option.
Don't get me wrong, toasting insta's in their current bookmark format is not only a good idea but mandated by the impact it's been having on the systems and everyone's gameplay. Not to mention the arguable impact of the 'bookmark economy'.
However, what I found curious was the choice to replace them in their entirety with the 'warp to 0km' option. Given the nature of ship differences, it struck me as always odd that the disadvantage of a slow behemoth ship, the fact that it is indeed slow, is a completely circumventable restriction and trade-off.
The major disadvantage to a slow ship with instas or warp-to-0 is the time it takes to align and warp as it leaves the incoming gate.
Yes, Best way to get people is still on the other side of the gate while they try and warp off. If you cant scam them before they warp away they dont have the cargo room for anything worth the security hit (unless you want to have a small ship scan people before they jump). Battleship can snag almoast anyone and tank the sentryies while friends come to assist, just make sure you focus most of your ship to tanking and sensor boosters so you lock very quickly (most important part).
No, i dont see warp to 0 impacting me. I only thing it will impact is the people who like to snipe from outside sentry range and the only ships you can destroy that way are small ships without BM's that arent worth bothering with in the first place and Haulers piloted by new players who have not yet had enough time to learn that instants were important to have and that buying for an entire region was cheaper that getting blow up once. Anyone with enough cargo to be worth stealing already knew to use instants below .5.
However i do have to admit that warp to 5km make MUCH more sense, that would have to be some accurate computer to warp almoast on top of something and not accidentally hit it without leaving any room for error.
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Zoxia
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:14:00 -
[12]
heck :) lets have a BM wipe and implement a system to limit them. Limit Book Marks HERE!!! |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:18:00 -
[13]
If the "solution" is anything except a working insta-jump (you land INSIDE jump distance), I'm KEEPING MY BOOKMARKS. All 17,000 of them. On all my characters.
And if they disable my current BMs, I will make new ones.
And if they prevent new BMs, I will stop playing. I can not afford the travel times and I can not afford the needless pod losses. And I won't be giving out my stuff to anyone, least of all you, dear reader. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Altemi Calabre
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Arushia
The major disadvantage to a slow ship with instas or warp-to-0 is the time it takes to align and warp as it leaves the incoming gate.
And in this I completely agree that IS a factor. But if this is a recognized limiter, why wouldn't the in system speed of it similarly limit in some travel time?
And to the comments made about Battleships being slower somehow being 'punitive'? Well, as i said from the beginning, my thoughts on this were that fast ships have the advantage of being fast, slow ships the disadvantage of being slow. Battleships are not exclusively punished (nanophoon what? MWD what?) but it does mean that not fitting with some consciousness of speed and maneuver has a price against it.
Caldari ships, for instance, have a number of advantages with the arguable 'limitation' that their hulls are on average slower than most of their contemporaries. So, why should the insta-o km option favour them more than anyone else because their speed is removed from long distance travel as a significant variable?
I'm not saying this is the only mechanism, I was just surprised they made the change as is. And as for any comments about 'use their old insta's' I'm fully expecting they are being nuked off the DB for the live transition as eliminating the DB load and damage they are doing was the whole point.
Just because we CAN do a thing doesn't mean it was necessarily intended or good after all, that's the Dev's decision in final implementation. Insta's are clearly operating in a way that was not anticipated.
My point of view is simply speed has it's advantages in travel within a fight or mission, the warp to 0km option seems to mean that conventional engine speed simply has no bearing on long distance travel, and that seemes out of whack with CCP's usual 'give something/get something' approach to ship building.
If i can fit a ship without ever worrying about my travel speed for long distance, well and good, it just seems out of synch to me.
Altemi ~ Why is it those with the greatest responsibility to make good decisions so often seem the least capable or inclined?
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Rachel Karrde
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:59:00 -
[15]
warp to 0km in Kali ? about time :)
personaly i think it is a good thing to have warp to 0km, and the alligning factor and the not so unimportant speed matters of BS compared to Frigs will still count in combat as allways...warp to zero is fine it will spare us all these hours of creating/copying BMs and will give us all more tme to focus on playing the game
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.07 21:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yes, but what reason is there to slow them down when travelling? Does it make the game more fun or more balanced? And... hmm. You want all battleships to move slowly to make life a pain for the ones who snipe?
Ehm. I dont think those are good suggestions. You just want to punish the snipers.
by the way you word it, i assume you mean the lowsec gate snipers. those guys are very rare and i don't really see how this would punish them. in empire, they can just dock to refit anyway.
when discussing fleet mobility, try to think about the absence of any real difference in mobility between ship classes. try to think about the fact that ship speed does not even matter, and that a bs gang can reach its destination almost as fast as a cruiser gang.
if people need to slowboat for 5km, we will stop seeing so many bs's fitted for duking it out at 200km, and start seeing more fleets fitted with ab's and mwd's.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.07 22:33:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 07/11/2006 22:34:50 The OP is quite right... Ship speed should have a meaning outside combat too. Also: Do you "warp-to-0" guys even know how impossible it is to catch someone with that option?
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.07 22:52:00 -
[18]
Idle thought .. anyone noticeh ow the vast majority of anti-warp-to-0 advocates are flashing pirates? Sniping from 200km aligned with an alt to collect the loot for the bloody lose. That is NOT in the best spirit of eve. If you want ot prate, tank the guns, risk the retribution and get near the gate.
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VekkTor
Legionari Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:05:00 -
[19]
err, warp to 5km would keep the instas existing, which is the thing which totally kills the servers with warp to 0km it's more like ppl will kill in the next (bubbled) entered gate
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Tharrn
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Amira Silvermist Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 07/11/2006 22:34:50 The OP is quite right... Ship speed should have a meaning outside combat too. Also: Do you "warp-to-0" guys even know how impossible it is to catch someone with that option?
As difficult as it is now with people using BMs? On which side of the gate do you usually catch enemies? Go figure...
Now recruiting!
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tharrn
Originally by: Amira Silvermist Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 07/11/2006 22:34:50 The OP is quite right... Ship speed should have a meaning outside combat too. Also: Do you "warp-to-0" guys even know how impossible it is to catch someone with that option?
As difficult as it is now with people using BMs? On which side of the gate do you usually catch enemies? Go figure...
We manage it all the time, catching those with instas that is. Camp the other side of the gate or get a warp bubble is my suggestion. Warp to 0 nerfs only one group. That being pirates in lowsec that sit at 200km sniping and using alts to pick up the loot while staying aligned and usually stabbed. Tundragon, S******dly, etc .. you know them. Now these pirates will have to actually risk retribution by the people they are pirating -- oh the tragedy.
So in short, warp to 0 only nerfs cowards. Sold!
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Rogerano
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:15:00 -
[22]
It's either warp to 0km, or Instas. Take your pick people. It's really that simple. Hehe. I can't believe some of you don't get it. Even assuming bookmarks within a certain radius of the gate are prevented from working, people will just create bookmarks further out. To ensure the safety of valuables I would not think twice about creating instas at 100km and using that as my default.
Warp to 0km, or instas... People will find a way.
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Peppy LePew
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:10:00 -
[23]
Real problem is: it is simply too easy to sit at a gate or station popping anything that doesn't have instas. 5km wouldn't solve anything. You can not defend the victim because there's nothing you can do to the attacker without being aggressed yourself, and consequently stuck unable to pass through the gate or dock. The system is broken and favors the attacker in almost every way possible and is why instas are a requirement for living in low sec / 0.0 so that's why your idea isn't going to happen.
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.08 01:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 08/11/2006 01:33:33
Originally by: Tharrn
As difficult as it is now with people using BMs? On which side of the gate do you usually catch enemies? Go figure...
Just because there was problem before doesnt mean its ok now... Anyway, why is everybody assuming that people who are against "warp to 0" are automaticaly pirates? At least you should have known better Tharrn...
Originally by: Rogerano It's either warp to 0km, or Instas. Take your pick people. It's really that simple. Hehe. I can't believe some of you don't get it.
I cant believe most of you dont get it. There is a third option: No insta bookmarks and no "warp to 0" Wow, how about that?
Originally by: Rogerano Even assuming bookmarks within a certain radius of the gate are prevented from working, people will just create bookmarks further out. To ensure the safety of valuables I would not think twice about creating instas at 100km and using that as my default.
Warp to 0km, or instas... People will find a way.
What if you cant use a bookmark within 150km of a station or gate?
Originally by: Rells
Warp to 0 nerfs only one group. That being pirates in lowsec that sit at 200km sniping ... So in short, warp to 0 only nerfs cowards. Sold!
That comment destroyed all your credibility to train people how to pvp in my eyes.
Originally by: Rells
Now these pirates will have to actually risk retribution by the people they are pirating -- oh the tragedy.
Ah yes, because instadock ability increase the risk for pirates...
Guys, just because everybody had instas doesnt mean its was all well and good. It was a game mechanic abuse to reduce travel time and risk for everybody! If you guys really cant be arsed to use travel setups and fast ships maybe CCP should create a module that makes you jump closer to the gates but nerfs your combat ability (like the new WCS). Its just rediciulus that a fleet of Battleships travels nearly as fast as a squad of Frigs.
The speed of many ships would stop playing a role altogether. Why do you guys think that Cargo Expanders make you slower?
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mallina
Caldari DeStInY.
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Posted - 2006.11.08 03:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ithildin If the "solution" is anything except a working insta-jump (you land INSIDE jump distance), I'm KEEPING MY BOOKMARKS. All 17,000 of them. On all my characters.
And if they disable my current BMs, I will make new ones.
And if they prevent new BMs, I will stop playing. I can not afford the travel times and I can not afford the needless pod losses. And I won't be giving out my stuff to anyone, least of all you, dear reader.
Threatening to stop playing because you'd no longer be able to do something that wasnt meant to be in the game to begin with is low and if you ask me a rather spoilt attitude.
However, i somewhat agree with warp to 0km if and ONLY if its limited to certain things; im talking pods and shuttles and maybe Interceptors, but nothing more. ----------- Turbulance |
Ashlii
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:19:00 -
[26]
Instas have been around since the game started. After 3+ years they are still around.
I see Instas in a pretty positive light. If the person makes their own, it is a reward for thinking ahead for the next time they jump to the spot they want to travel to. If you sell them, You are selling your time and expertise.
If you go out in a part of the galaxy that you haven't seen before and are exploring, I can agree that it should be more dangerous because you don't have the 'Locals' advantage.
I am not a pirate and am likely never going to be a pirate, but warp to 0 breaks a lot of game mechanics more then anything I can think of: Slow ships versus Fast ships. With Warp to 0 there is little to differentiate between the two. A freighter moves from one side of the galaxy to the other with comparable speed to a frigate.
Not allowing Instas nor Warp to 0 makes it far too easy for campers to pwn everyone who wanders though their territory.
Pirating becomes rather difficult since now about the only way you are going to get lucky is if you catch someone in the belts. Not that I personally mind, I am talking play balance.
BMs are not broken... Now Secure cans are a problem, and the new Wrecks are going to be a greater problem unless the Devs Make it easy to pop them without using ammo.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: mallina
Originally by: Ithildin If the "solution" is anything except a working insta-jump (you land INSIDE jump distance), I'm KEEPING MY BOOKMARKS. All 17,000 of them. On all my characters.
And if they disable my current BMs, I will make new ones.
And if they prevent new BMs, I will stop playing. I can not afford the travel times and I can not afford the needless pod losses. And I won't be giving out my stuff to anyone, least of all you, dear reader.
Threatening to stop playing because you'd no longer be able to do something that wasnt meant to be in the game to begin with is low and if you ask me a rather spoilt attitude.
However, i somewhat agree with warp to 0km if and ONLY if its limited to certain things; im talking pods and shuttles and maybe Interceptors, but nothing more.
Personally I think it was lucky for ccp that people started using instant bookmarks. I dont think the game would have become this popular if it wasnt possible to escape the long travels.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Hayabusa Fury
Caldari Wu-Tang Financial Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:48:00 -
[28]
why can't they just deploy a nice x,y,z axis 3d grid. pick your coordinates and warp there. have the local system map show you the coordinates for gates and roid clusters, and you can pick the distance you want from the object.
Even add coordinates in the 3d map/grid of scanned ships so you can warp there.
Safe spots still exist and are safer because you can be anywhere in the 3d map/grid.
Did anyone ever play Star Trek Klingon Academy? That game had a nice local and galaxy warp system.
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"I can not recall the number of times my superior intellect has got me knee deep in ****!" --Harely Hayes |
swoj
The New Order. United Connection's
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:15:00 -
[29]
no one seems to have mentioned that Warp to 0 is a mechanic that only benefits (as with instas) Active pilots, AFK travel on auto-pilot will only warp you to 15km. If only AFK pilots warp to 15km, doesn't that make things very easy for empire pilots now? It will be like holding up a sign saying "I'm vulnerable, attack me and I can't do anything about it!!"
Also, fast ships and slow ships will still have their advantages/disadvantages. It may now be less of a factor for long distance travel, however deadspace, missions, combat, etc will still present the same limitations as before. Even for freighters, do many freighter pilots actually sit and watch their freighter running on auto-pilot?? I would guess that freighter pilots fall into two camps: 1. Those that use instas: these guys will not be affected by the change since they have to manually select the insta anyway. 2. Those that AFK while their freigher travels: again, these guys will be unaffected as the autopilot will still warp to 15km.
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