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Penny Parada
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:30:00 -
[1]
Any chance of winning?
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Anderson
Murder-Death-Kill Blood Raiders Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:31:00 -
[2]
Any good vaga pilot should take that fight easily.
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Liisa
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:34:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Liisa on 08/11/2006 12:35:38 There are so many different circumstances that can happen here, so many fittings that I will just say "depends."
*edit* I am sure that somebody, somewhere can find a pilgrim fitting that, in the right circumstances can kill a vagabond. Normally however, attacking a ship that only needs its cap for its MWD and nothing else with a ship that normally kills its targets by denying them their cap isn't the smartest thing to do. ----------------------------------
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Lunna
Tica Vun
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:44:00 -
[4]
nobody pops, pilgrim should warp away first
in kali pilgrim should pop
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vaca loca
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:46:00 -
[5]
2 ECMS will make it possible to win (although unpredictable) - ecm uses a lot of cap though and you wont be stealing much from a cap dry vaga
2 TD's may help if you can web the vaga - you may be able to win this fight - if he is outside web range though he can get transversal to zero and win
with both these common setups it could still go either way
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DeadProphet
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:49:00 -
[6]
tbh as someone who flies a pilgrim a lot, you have little chance against a competent vagabond pilot
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:46:00 -
[7]
You have a chance of winning, but its so unlikely to get yourself in a position to pull it off, that its pointless.
You need 1) For the vagabond to be still, or for him to bumble into you 2) For the vagabond not to notice you and move away in the time it takes you to decloak, lock and stick webs on him.
Basicaly in space thats almost never going to happen. More likely is that Vaga notices you, stays outside of 12km and destroyes you, or you manage to keep him jammed and he eventually gets out of scram range and warps off. Vagabond is too fast and Pilgrim is too short ranged.
You have a good shot in a curse though.
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:49:00 -
[8]
Minimum of 3 slots to even hold vaga in close range... if he decides to come into the nosf.
Any good vaga pilot should rip pilgrim apart (or pilgrim will ECM and run away).
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Minimum of 3 slots to even hold vaga in close range... if he decides to come into the nosf.
Any good vaga pilot should rip pilgrim apart (or pilgrim will ECM and run away).
No if he decides to come close range (and why would he ever I dont know) 1 x5 web is more than enough. A Vaga with no cap cant mwd away and cant web you back. Unless if you mean ab-web-scram but I thought surely every Pilgrim almost carries that anyway??? (I do) Thats why a guy above was talkign about 2xHypnos or 2xBalmer choice... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Private Iron
Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:22:00 -
[10]
If vaga goes within nos/web range then pilgrim, otherwise vaga will win. -----
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IlIlIIlIlIlIlIIllIIllIlI
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:30:00 -
[11]
Now: Mweh, who cares about 1v1's with ECM involved.
Kali: Vagabond every single time, its not even close.
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:35:00 -
[12]
58.5km nossing range and maybe a 15km webbing rang I think off hand the curse would own.
his optimal will be weak his tracking ****e and 5 t2 scouts will be ripping into him b4 he reaches 20km.
he would have absolutly no cap b4 he gets into any range to cause damage. -
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:40:00 -
[13]
ECM, drones, tracking disruptor. web
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt |
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad 58.5km nossing range and maybe a 15km webbing rang I think off hand the curse would own.
his optimal will be weak his tracking ****e and 5 t2 scouts will be ripping into him b4 he reaches 20km.
he would have absolutly no cap b4 he gets into any range to cause damage.
WTS: basic reading skills. You can also try and learn by yourself starting with the name of this thread.
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Buraken v2
Amarr Amarr Defence Initiative
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:01:00 -
[15]
A vaga will never win, neither will a Pilgrim, if the vaga pilot isn't an idiot.
If Vaga sits at 15km+ the pilgrim will just ecm him, cloak and run.
If Vaga is within nos and web range then vaga pilot is an idiot and should die, and will too.
Quote: Mail from: Houvire Takaerne
2006.06.06 19:25 Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
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Randay
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:50:00 -
[16]
pilgrim, no contest.
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Rania Serlia
TetraMorph Nexus Inc. The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:57:00 -
[17]
Shield tanked MWD overdrive pilgrim?
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Private Iron If vaga goes within nos/web range then pilgrim, otherwise vaga will win.
A vagabond trying to hit from outside web range can't hit a pilgrim if the pilgrim pilot bothers to fit his racial EW.
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Semkhet
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:12:00 -
[19]
Something that seems to be overlooked is that usually, the Pilgrim will choose the time and location of the engagement.
Therefore the Pilgrim will quietly dock at the closest station, switch 2x TD's for 2x racial jammers and mount 2x 2points warp jammers, a fleeting web, and put a webber drone in the drone bay (that's what your cargo bay is meant for...).
Then you go roaming around until you find the vaga. The initial premise is that the vaga should be either static or moving very slowly since you want to bump him from the front. When you bump him, unless he's very quick, the time he realize what's going on you will have him jammed, webbed, scrambled and nossed.
Even if the vaga pilot has a full set of HG snakes which give him a top speed of 6.6 Km/sec, the fleeting webber will reduce this to 660 m/sec. The webber drone will take off another 30%, leaving the vaga with 460 m/sec. Since you can pursue him at over 200 m/sec, his real speed will top around 260 m/sec. Getting out of the warp jammers range of 7500 meters will require 28 seconds. Even without using a talisman set, that time is more than sufficient to empty the vaga's cap in order to deny any prolonged MWD use.
An incoming WCS nerf would make this tactic more dangerous for the Pilgrim since WCS would (apparently) increase your locking time. Actually you only need to fit 2x WCS in order to get away from Vagas since no Vaga pilot in his sane mind would get in close range against a Pilgrim.
Forget about TD's on the Vaga. 2 Balmers or T2 TD's can reduce it's optimal under 500 meters, but he might still hit you due to the extended falloff of projectiles.
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:33:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 09/11/2006 09:33:43 The vaga can easily sit outside nos range and just rail on the pilgrim. This really isn't a contest. Either side could use jamming to make it "different". TD's really don't do all that much to ACs, most of the range is falloff.
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Jazz Bo
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jazz Bo on 09/11/2006 09:46:33
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Private Iron If vaga goes within nos/web range then pilgrim, otherwise vaga will win.
A vagabond trying to hit from outside web range can't hit a pilgrim if the pilgrim pilot bothers to fit his racial EW.
1. Optimal is more or less meaningless for Vagabond pilots, it's all about fall-off. 2. Tracking Disruptors won't hit Ac tracking hard enough if the Vaga stays at >13km or so (which he should considering the Nos and the web)
Problems for the Vaga pilot: 1. Barrage only does Kin & Exp, which the Pilgrim can tank well 2. ECM
Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
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Jazz Bo
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Semkhet Something that seems to be overlooked is that usually, the Pilgrim will choose the time and location of the engagement.
Therefore the Pilgrim will quietly dock at the closest station, switch 2x TD's for 2x racial jammers and mount 2x 2points warp jammers, a fleeting web, and put a webber drone in the drone bay (that's what your cargo bay is meant for...).
Then you go roaming around until you find the vaga. The initial premise is that the vaga should be either static or moving very slowly since you want to bump him from the front. When you bump him, unless he's very quick, the time he realize what's going on you will have him jammed, webbed, scrambled and nossed.
Even if the vaga pilot has a full set of HG snakes which give him a top speed of 6.6 Km/sec, the fleeting webber will reduce this to 660 m/sec. The webber drone will take off another 30%, leaving the vaga with 460 m/sec. Since you can pursue him at over 200 m/sec, his real speed will top around 260 m/sec. Getting out of the warp jammers range of 7500 meters will require 28 seconds. Even without using a talisman set, that time is more than sufficient to empty the vaga's cap in order to deny any prolonged MWD use.
An incoming WCS nerf would make this tactic more dangerous for the Pilgrim since WCS would (apparently) increase your locking time. Actually you only need to fit 2x WCS in order to get away from Vagas since no Vaga pilot in his sane mind would get in close range against a Pilgrim.
Forget about TD's on the Vaga. 2 Balmers or T2 TD's can reduce it's optimal under 500 meters, but he might still hit you due to the extended falloff of projectiles.
The situation you describe would mean catching the Vaga outside docking/jumping range, and standing still. Good luck getting "in front of the Vaga and bumping him" with a cloaked Pilgrim when the Vaga is moving at least 400ms/s.
Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
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Semkhet
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 09/11/2006 09:36:59
The vaga can easily sit outside nos range and just rail on the pilgrim. This really isn't a contest. Either side could use jamming to make it "different". TD's really don't do all that much to ACs, most of the range is falloff. Having a domination web on your pilgrim might be the thing you can do to change this outcome though.
Except that the Pilgrim has a base sensor strength of 24, when the Vaga only has 14... Besides, since Amarr has usually the worst sensors (Curse and Pilgrim being the exception), specific Amarr jammers are the least used among racial ECM, and it is probable that the Vaga would fit a single multispec given CPU and cap considerations. Without factoring skills, this would give for the Pilgrim a 2x 50% chance of jamming versus the Vaga with only 1x 20% chance of jamming. You want to bet your Vaga ?
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Semkhet
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:56:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Semkhet on 09/11/2006 09:57:58
Originally by: Jazz Bo
The situation you describe would mean catching the Vaga outside docking/jumping range, and standing still. Good luck getting "in front of the Vaga and bumping him" with a cloaked Pilgrim when the Vaga is moving at least 400ms/s.
It is not uncommon to find a standstill or very slow Vaga camping a gate since it's the only way to stay aligned ready to warp away, specially in the case a Huginn jumps in. Bumping precisely takes it out of alignement and obliges him to use the MWD to attempt to escape, further dooming his cap.
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Jazz Bo
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 09/11/2006 10:22:44
Originally by: Jazz Bo
The situation you describe would mean catching the Vaga outside docking/jumping range, and standing still. Good luck getting "in front of the Vaga and bumping him" with a cloaked Pilgrim when the Vaga is moving at least 400ms/s.
It is not uncommon to find a standstill or very slow Vaga camping a gate since it's the only way to stay aligned ready to warp away, specially in the case a Huginn jumps in. Bumping precisely takes it out of alignement and obliges him to use the MWD to attempt to escape, further dooming his cap.
How exactly will the bumping prevent him from jumping through the gate and shouting "Freeeedommm!"? The Vaga pilot would have to be insanely stupid to aggro a Pilgrim that is scrambling, webbing, nossing and ECMing him.
Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
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Semkhet
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jazz Bo
How exactly will the bumping prevent him from jumping through the gate and shouting "Freeeedommm!"? The Vaga pilot would have to be insanely stupid to aggro a Pilgrim that is scrambling, webbing, nossing and ECMing him.
I often see Vagas standing or orbiting at over 10 Km of the gate instead of staying within jump range. Its probably due to most vaga pilots viewing their ships as a ceptor on steroids, and maybe that a bit of overconfidence also plays a role given their firepower, speed and the stabs. But the fact of the matter is that if a Pilgrim specifically fitted for the occasion manages to get close to a vaga which isn't in jumping or docking range, unless extremely lucky that ship is toast.
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Toaster Oven
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:50:00 -
[27]
Vaga sitting outside nos/web range: Either Vaga will run away or Pilgrim will jam+cloak and run
Vaga sitting inside nos/web range: With 2+ WCS fitted Vaga will just warp away. Hardly any Pilgrim pilot carries more than 2 pts of scramble.
Some oddball setups and pilot stupidity may change the outcome. But 99% of the time that's what will happen.
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Jazz Bo
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 09/11/2006 11:56:08
Originally by: Jazz Bo
How exactly will the bumping prevent him from jumping through the gate and shouting "Freeeedommm!"? The Vaga pilot would have to be insanely stupid to aggro a Pilgrim that is scrambling, webbing, nossing and ECMing him.
I often see Vagas standing or orbiting at over 10 Km of the gate instead of staying within jump range. Its probably due to most vaga pilots viewing their ships as a ceptor on steroids, and maybe that a bit of overconfidence also plays a role given their firepower, speed and the stabs. But the fact of the matter is that if a Pilgrim specifically fitted for the occasion manages to get close to a vaga which isn't in jumping or docking range, unless extremely lucky that ship is toast.
On side note, it's also funny to note that all this thread refers to a Pilgrim/Vaga 1vs1 encounter, which is quite a realistic situation since Vaga is one of the most used HACs in solo ops and same for the Pilgrim in the recon class.
As conclusion, given that a Pilgrim can fit two stabs along with an anti-vaga setup without even loosing a basic tanking ability (MAR T2, EAN T2 and 800m tungsten plate), I would say that all the risk falls on top of the vaga. The pilgrim just has to attempt the assault, and in the worst of the cases can warp away. On the other hand a vaga caught at close range far from a gate or station can only pray that his cap will last until he MWD's out of warp jammer range.
Yes, theoretically in that situation the Pilgrim would have the upper hand. It's just that you will practically never find a Vaga that's standing still and not in jumping or docking range.
And if the Pilgrim pilot had two stabs, why wouldn't the Vaga pilot? I'd say Vaga's are far more likely to have stabs because they a.) are natural shield tankers and b.) cost three times as much.
Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
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Semkhet
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Toaster Oven Hardly any Pilgrim pilot carries more than 2 pts of scramble.
I carry +6 when hunting lone snipers
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Semkhet
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jazz Bo
And if the Pilgrim pilot had two stabs, why wouldn't the Vaga pilot? I'd say Vaga's are far more likely to have stabs because they a.) are natural shield tankers and b.) cost three times as much.
If you carefully read my first post, you will notice that I specify 2x 2 points scramblers on the Pilgrim, giving +4. I expect almost any vaga to have 3 stabs.
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