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Joanna RB
Twenty Questions RAZOR Alliance
19
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:21:17 -
[1] - Quote
ATM eve is split into two sections - those that trained command ships before the requirement change and those that didnt.
And for those that didnt, the new requirements are simply INSANE.
For example, on this character, it would take 54 days to train the prerequisites for all 4 Titan skillbooks. It would take 55 days for command ships. The old system, which basically required cruiser 5, BC5, then either logi or hac depending on which shiptype was much simpler and made more sense, apart from possibly the cruiser link now cruisers and BC's have become two distinct trees. But requiring level 5 in ALL link skills, meaning you need level 5 armour link skill to fly a Caldari and level 5 sheild to fly an Amaar command ship makes no sense whatsoever. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2129
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:44:02 -
[2] - Quote
Firstly. Forum search is your friend. This has been brought up.before several times.
Secondly. Take a brand new character without remapping. Now tell me how long to Hac. Cs. And Marauders.
Thirdly. You do not need level five link skills. In fact with the skills for a command ship you can not use a single link. Learn to actually read. |
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
769
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:45:04 -
[3] - Quote
Im ok with how things are atm considering how powerful Command Ships are. Your comparison with Titans makes no sense as it requires much more skills to fly a Titan properly while youre pretty much good to go with command ships after CS4.
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:46:47 -
[4] - Quote
Joanna RB wrote:ATM eve is split into two sections - those that trained command ships before the requirement change and those that didnt.
And for those that didnt, the new requirements are simply INSANE.
For example, on this character, it would take 54 days to train the prerequisites for all 4 Titan skillbooks. It would take 55 days for command ships. The old system, which basically required cruiser 5, BC5, then either logi or hac depending on which shiptype was much simpler and made more sense, apart from possibly the cruiser link now cruisers and BC's have become two distinct trees. But requiring level 5 in ALL link skills, meaning you need level 5 armour link skill to fly a Caldari and level 5 sheild to fly an Amaar command ship makes no sense whatsoever.
The time it takes YOU to train Titan or Commandship is 100% depending on what you have trained. For a new character its more like 6+ months for titan vs around 2 months for commandship 170.5 days and 54days on a single remap with no implants (diffrent remaps + implants should do the same to bouth numbers) |
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
395
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:52:05 -
[5] - Quote
Quoting myself from another active thread in a different subforum, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5686676#post5686676
Caldari 5 wrote:Lets have a look at a few things, the training time has not significantly changed, the time for a new player to get into any specific Command ship is now pretty much the same. Even when compared to what the pre-reqs were before.Also I think you should read the skill descriptions for the Warfare skills required for the command ships. Siege Warfere - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' shield capacity per skill level. Skirmish Warfare - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' agility per skill level. Information Warfare - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' targeting range per skill level. Armored Warfare - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' armor hit points per skill level. So in other words, the fleet support ships now assume that the pilots actually have leadership skills. I mean what fleet booster wouldn't want 10% better Shield HP, Armor HP, Agility and Targeting range for the fleet. I meant even Orca/Rorq pilots would want those skills to boost their fleets. Now if the ship had required the Specialization version of the four leadership skills your point would have been valid. Above all remember that Command Ships are meant to be in a Fleet and not solo :)
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1443
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:53:36 -
[6] - Quote
The prerequisites for a CS under the old system took in access of 55 days at max training speed. The training time for a single CS went down slightly after the change if I recall correctly. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2379
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Posted - 2015.05.07 23:55:40 -
[7] - Quote
Confirming my Rorq booster is getting all those skills trained once I realized what the benefit was. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
663
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Posted - 2015.05.08 00:30:32 -
[8] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Im ok with how things are atm considering how powerful Command Ships are..
Well, I would be too if my Nighthawk, Vulture, Eos, Damnation and Absolution could do 2000dps like some minmatar one..
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1078
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Posted - 2015.05.08 00:35:17 -
[9] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:Im ok with how things are atm considering how powerful Command Ships are.. Well, I would be too if my Nighthawk, Vulture, Eos, Damnation and Absolution could do 2000dps like some minmatar one..
the power of a command ship has little to do with it's dps
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
285
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Posted - 2015.05.08 02:23:33 -
[10] - Quote
As I've said before, the problem with CS is not the raw number of SP required, it's that most of them don't ******* do anything other than fill prereqs. They're near complete deadweight, just like Advanced Spaceship Command. Battle cruisers V? Useless, nobody flies t1 BCs anymore. Gang skills? No effect unless you're the only one that has them. Link skills? Lol, links are for link alts, not mains.
The old requirement of Cruiser V actually provided your character a benefit when not flying CS. Now you have to train four racial BC skills that you will never use when you're not in a CS. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1444
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Posted - 2015.05.08 02:44:54 -
[11] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:As I've said before, the problem with CS is not the raw number of SP required, it's that most of them don't ******* do anything other than fill prereqs. They're near complete deadweight, just like Advanced Spaceship Command. Battle cruisers V? Useless, nobody flies t1 BCs anymore. Gang skills? No effect unless you're the only one that has them. Link skills? Lol, links are for link alts, not mains.
The old requirement of Cruiser V actually provided your character a benefit when not flying CS. Now you have to train four racial BC skills that you will never use when you're not in a CS. Fair assessment regarding BC's, but that seems more like an issue with the balance of BC's than the training for CS's. Regarding the rest, the skills involved are theoretically half the reason for the existence as a class. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
626
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Posted - 2015.05.08 02:54:46 -
[12] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:As I've said before, the problem with CS is not the raw number of SP required, it's that most of them don't ******* do anything other than fill prereqs. They're near complete deadweight, just like Advanced Spaceship Command. Battle cruisers V? Useless, nobody flies t1 BCs anymore. Gang skills? No effect unless you're the only one that has them. Link skills? Lol, links are for link alts, not mains.
The old requirement of Cruiser V actually provided your character a benefit when not flying CS. Now you have to train four racial BC skills that you will never use when you're not in a CS. However you like the changes to CS itself, the overall requirements make sense. It is a ship packed full of gang-boosting hardware, and it is a battlecruiser hull. Those skills make sense to require on something literally labled as being for command.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust Triumvirate.
218
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Posted - 2015.05.08 03:37:45 -
[13] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:As I've said before, the problem with CS is not the raw number of SP required, it's that most of them don't ******* do anything other than fill prereqs. They're near complete deadweight, just like Advanced Spaceship Command. Battle cruisers V? Useless, nobody flies t1 BCs anymore. Gang skills? No effect unless you're the only one that has them. Link skills? Lol, links are for link alts, not mains.
The old requirement of Cruiser V actually provided your character a benefit when not flying CS. Now you have to train four racial BC skills that you will never use when you're not in a CS.
Speak for yourself on T1 BC's. I use them frequently, not to mention Nado/naga/talos/oracle all benefit from BC skill as well. Those ships are still in heavy use for the most part. Not to mention training BC5 makes sense... its a t2 BC. Do you complain about needing cruiser5 to fly a HAC? Or BS5 to fly a marauder?
Just because you don't fly T1 BC, doesn't mean the skill is useless.
In regards to the OP, I don't like having to train all the fleet/leadership skills since i will probably never use a CS in a fleet role. However, it isn't outside the realm of sense that a CS needs command type skills to fly. i'll suck it up for a month to train it so i can have access to some good ships ( 2 weeks left! )
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2015.05.08 03:58:26 -
[14] - Quote
If anyone feel like the fleet skills are not worth your time, undock your alt in a noobie ship and get the fleet bonuses. As long as your squad commander with someone under your command in system you get those bonuses : Siege Warfere - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' shield capacity per skill level. Skirmish Warfare - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' agility per skill level. Information Warfare - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' targeting range per skill level. Armored Warfare - Grants a 2% bonus to fleet members' armor hit points per skill level.
+10% shield/agility/target range/armor is pretty decent bonus for having a 0 skill alt sitting in space! |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
626
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Posted - 2015.05.08 08:38:17 -
[15] - Quote
Joanna RB wrote:ATM eve is split into two sections - those that trained command ships before the requirement change and those that didnt.
And for those that didnt, the new requirements are simply INSANE.
For example, on this character, it would take 54 days to train the prerequisites for all 4 Titan skillbooks. It would take 55 days for command ships. The old system, which basically required cruiser 5, BC5, then either logi or hac depending on which shiptype was much simpler and made more sense, apart from possibly the cruiser link now cruisers and BC's have become two distinct trees. But requiring level 5 in ALL link skills, meaning you need level 5 armour link skill to fly a Caldari and level 5 sheild to fly an Amaar command ship makes no sense whatsoever.
Well if you'd like.....we could request BS 5 be a requirement for cap flying be reinstated to tack on 28 days per race. Hell lets make it 25 for easy math. That's 100 days more. Good now? Ships are posted max skills assumed...skill plans are assumed 0 sp and average implants. Unless you'd like to post your chars skills you have a useless comparison here.
CCP made official what was a player preference anyway. A proper fleet booster had all basic warfares 5'd anyway. Amarr giving that passive boost to shields is 10% of shield hp boosted. That is more hp your opponent is chewing through before it even hits your real tank. I have been in armor boats where I warped off smoking. Sole reason for this was an extra few HP's on the shield took that 1-2 shots that would have been the shots that pushed hull into explode mode sooner.
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1021
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Posted - 2015.05.08 08:39:21 -
[16] - Quote
The Prereqs for CS are the regular warfare skills. They take like 5 days each from 0-V, and those skills are actually about always useful (free 10% agility nomnom). People liked the old progression via Logi/HAC because they would be training those anyways at some point.
It's rather an upside that people flying command ships now got some minimum competences at commanding fleets implied, SP-wise. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1407
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Posted - 2015.05.08 09:17:02 -
[17] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:As I've said before, the problem with CS is not the raw number of SP required, it's that most of them don't ******* do anything other than fill prereqs. They're near complete deadweight, just like Advanced Spaceship Command. Battle cruisers V? Useless, nobody flies t1 BCs anymore. Gang skills? No effect unless you're the only one that has them. Link skills? Lol, links are for link alts, not mains.
The old requirement of Cruiser V actually provided your character a benefit when not flying CS. Now you have to train four racial BC skills that you will never use when you're not in a CS. If it is deadweight for you, do not train into these ships. CS are, unlike most other ships, high specialized hulls filling a highly specialized role. In order to be effective in this role, you have to train highly specialized skills. There is nothing wrong with that. Besides, you do not have to train most of the advanced leadership skills in order to fly them, just the basic skills that require no excessive training time. Get over it, plug in the Charisma implant and invest some time into these powerful hulls. If that is too much to ask from players, they should not try to train into these ships and instead go for BS or just HAC.
Not to mention that your perception of "dead weight" is nothing but your perception. I regularly hear and read requests for booster pilots in our fleet that linger around unanswered for many minutes until a couple of the few really good and necessary booster pilots log in. The more people you have with these skills trained, the better for fleets as they can leave earlier or at least have these vital roles filled earlier. If you do not use CS for fleets, you do not have to train anything but the basics, as said.
It could be argued that the skill requirements for the ships could be made more race specific, but, just as in the last thread about this topic, no one has come up with suitable replacement skills that keep the skill training at roughly the same length and fulfill CCP's requirement that more unique skills are required so that you have to train skills that do not unlock several ship classes at once. No one has thought about it in the last thread and neither has the OP, you or anyone so far in this thread.
Therefore: No need to change anything here. Absolutely no support from my side.
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
362
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Posted - 2015.05.09 07:20:34 -
[18] - Quote
It is almost like COMMAND SHIPS require you to have COMMAND SKILLS?
OH NOEZ, that is so logical and exactly what their bonusses are for... HAXX! |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1171
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Posted - 2015.05.09 09:03:18 -
[19] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:The Prereqs for CS are the regular warfare skills. They take like 5 days each from 0-V, and those skills are actually about always useful (free 10% agility nomnom). People liked the old progression via Logi/HAC because they would be training those anyways at some point.
It's rather an upside that people flying command ships now got some minimum competences at commanding fleets implied, SP-wise.
They're still weird. What on earth armor bonuses are worth to a nighthawk pilot, for example, is beyond me. It is also annoying that the command ships are not weighted to Cha in the skill training. It's asinine to map to CHa for all the LD skills them have the damned ships need something else.
But then, I trained before the swap sooooo yeah. There's that.
I prefered the old way. They were uber battlecruisers and the training reflected the combat nature with links as an option. They are formidible combat ships and with the drive/desire to push them on grid, having more useful combat overlap is preferred to my mind. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2133
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Posted - 2015.05.09 09:29:03 -
[20] - Quote
Since the OP didn't bother since it made them look bad. Brand new character, no implants, no remaps. Assuming only lvl 1 of the T2 skill. Done on EVE HQ which looks about right and certainly correct relative.
Assault Frigate (Including 1 racial Frigate to V) 23 Days 10 Hours. Heavy Assault Cruiser (Including 1 Cruiser to V) 62 Days 21 Hours. Command Ship (As above) 104 Days 13 Hours Marauder (As above) 115 Days 3 Hours. Titan (To 1, bare minimum to fly it) 193 Days 15 Hours.
The gap from HAC to CS is a bit larger than the other gaps, but that probably implies HAC's are too easy to train into rather than CS's being too hard to train into. Also the Marauder time does not include all the additional training for a Large T2 weapon system (Support skills to V) rather than a Medium T2 weapon system (Support skills to only IV) |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1171
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Posted - 2015.05.09 09:49:08 -
[21] - Quote
Yes, but it misses the fact the command ship prereqs are off on a stupid attribute path which means a remap is nearly essential. It's irksome.
All of the other ships you can use a generic map, which supports most of the mods, weapons and the hull. Command ships, not so much. On a common map the LD skills take ~9 days each (I-V), instead of ~5 (value with a Cha map). They are the only ship class (combat at least, don't know others) which jump attributes the way they do.
The previous scheme, this was less pronounced and players could follow a more natural attribute path to sit in them.
It's not the skills or the time that irks me, it's the attributes they're attached to.
The marauder example is a useful way to illustrate it - marauder skills: will/per. large t2 weapons: per/will. Command ships: will/per...prereqs: cha/will. Their weapon systems: per/will. Annoying. Indeed the BS V skill needed for maurders matches too, not so the BC V prereq for command ships.
tl;dr: It would be nice for the attributes to line up so remap planning is easier/better. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1409
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Posted - 2015.05.09 10:21:23 -
[22] - Quote
Why is a remap essential? I have not remapped in 3 years and skill everything I train on focused Perception/Memory with +3 implants. There is no reason to remap, except for the irksome entitlement of players to gain things fast, faster, fastest. Get rid of that entitlement and you'll gain a massively improved EVE experience in return. There is no need for max possible skill training time, there is no need for every ship/every mod/every skill to follow the most convenient path. If you want max skill point gain, you remap; if you can live without it like sane people do, you just invest a couple more hours/days in the training and gain the same result marginally slower.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1171
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Posted - 2015.05.09 12:12:47 -
[23] - Quote
We'll have to disagree then. For me remaps are the opposite of instant gratification - they are a tool only coming into their own with a plan spanning years. Part of it is ocd on my part, but the majority is playing smart in the long game.
You should look at it sometime, my LD toon knocked MONTHS of his plan with a remap. I'll change him back after the year. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1409
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Posted - 2015.05.09 14:56:14 -
[24] - Quote
I do not disagree with that. However, a remap is not essential or mandatory to train into something that has Charisma as attribute. That notion is flawed and ought not to be supported.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1171
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Posted - 2015.05.09 15:14:38 -
[25] - Quote
Yeah as I say the length is ok, I just feel when they moved the prerequisite, they should have considered bumping the convention and made the hulls wis/cha. Especially for guys doing the dedicated LD route it's a bit crappy.
Ahhh tbh I don't have a dog in this fight and I can see both points. My chars could fly them before it changed, these are just ships that feel (particularly) weird with their path. |
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