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Gallente Citizen 54682487
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 19:56:18 -
[1] - Quote
I am working my way to a blockade runner and wanted to get the nuts and bolts of high sec transport survival. Basically suicide ganking.
I am looking for very detailed game mechanics information.
I understand the microwarp cloak trick, but as a ship with a covert ops II cloak can cloak while warping I don't think it applies to my questions, but i could be wrong.
I will break it down into parts.
1. Can I be killed warping to the next gate? I come into a new system, it is clear so I engage cloak and warp across the system to the next gate. I will be cloaked, but can I be targeted and killed by gankers waiting at the other gate? If I am cloaked I would assume no, but if I run into an object less than 2k away from me I will be uncloaked. Do they have time to lock and shoot me before I use the gate?
1a. I know warp bubbles can be set up between gates in null sec, but could the same theory of use apply to putting an object in space to uncloak ships? IE. Instead of setting up a warp bubble, throw an object between two routes so any cloaked ships passing by get uncloaked before they reach the gate? Can you even uncloak other ships that are in warp?
2. Now I go through a gate and appear on the other side. I think you are invulnerable for 60 seconds? From targeted attacks anyway, I think bombs can still damage you correct? Or am I way off on this?
2a. Also will objects under 2k make you appear like uncloaking?
3. I safely pop out on the other side of the gate and nobody is in 2km of my ship, do I just hit the jump button and activate my cloak? Is that how simple it is?
3a I safely pop out on the other side of the gate however there is a ship within 2km of me. So I cannot cloak. What is the plan of action from here? Do I try and wait invulnerable for the other ship/object to move far enough away so I can cloak and jump?
3b The other ship fails to move away before my invun timer is up so I cannot cloak. What is the best plan of action to get away from a possible suicide gank?
Now keep in mind I will be using a max capacity fit, cargo optimizers and cargo expanders. That leaves 1 high slot open (covert ops cloak in one) and 2 mids (1 microwarp in one). What would be good mods for these slots for extra survivability.
I know these are technical questions, but learning the nuts and bolts of a game is huge and i really want to like this game. I just don't want to die a lot doing so. Thank you. |
Paranoid Loyd
5094
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:27:50 -
[2] - Quote
1) It occasionally happens that you will be a few meters away from the gate when you decloak, you would have to be very unlucky to be caught, I don't know anyone who tries to catch BRs this way. Most are caught because they are not cloaking at all and it would be at the in-gate (while you align) not the out-gate.
1a) objects will not decloak you while in warp
2)You cannot be smartbombed while gatecloaked
2a) if there is an object within 2km you will not be able to cloak. This is best dealt with by burning away from the object and then cloaking asap
3)Yes, it is that simple
3a)Yes, this will work, most people are not patient enough to wait. The probability of this happening is very very slim.
3b)see 2a
Usually medium shield extender and adaptive invulnerability field
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Freya Sertan
Tyrell Heavy Industries
125
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:30:17 -
[3] - Quote
Gallente Citizen 54682487 wrote:I am working my way to a blockade runner and wanted to get the nuts and bolts of high sec transport survival. Basically suicide ganking.
I am looking for very detailed game mechanics information.
I understand the microwarp cloak trick, but as a ship with a covert ops II cloak can cloak while warping I don't think it applies to my questions, but i could be wrong.
I will break it down into parts.
1. Can I be killed warping to the next gate? I come into a new system, it is clear so I engage cloak and warp across the system to the next gate. I will be cloaked, but can I be targeted and killed by gankers waiting at the other gate? If I am cloaked I would assume no, but if I run into an object less than 2k away from me I will be uncloaked. Do they have time to lock and shoot me before I use the gate? - Yes, if you're not smart. But it's highsec.
1a. I know warp bubbles can be set up between gates in null sec, but could the same theory of use apply to putting an object in space to uncloak ships? IE. Instead of setting up a warp bubble, throw an object between two routes so any cloaked ships passing by get uncloaked before they reach the gate? Can you even uncloak other ships that are in warp? - Yeah but you can't anchor in highsec so it's moot.
2. Now I go through a gate and appear on the other side. I think you are invulnerable for 60 seconds? From targeted attacks anyway, I think bombs can still damage you correct? Or am I way off on this?
2a. Also will objects under 2k make you appear like uncloaking?
3. I safely pop out on the other side of the gate and nobody is in 2km of my ship, do I just hit the jump button and activate my cloak? Is that how simple it is? - Yes.
3a I safely pop out on the other side of the gate however there is a ship within 2km of me. So I cannot cloak. What is the plan of action from here? Do I try and wait invulnerable for the other ship/object to move far enough away so I can cloak and jump? - You can or you can just jump and cloak. If you're fast enough you can't get locked.
3b The other ship fails to move away before my invun timer is up so I cannot cloak. What is the best plan of action to get away from a possible suicide gank? - Hit Jump, hit cloak.
Now keep in mind I will be using a max capacity fit, cargo optimizers and cargo expanders. That leaves 1 high slot open (covert ops cloak in one) and 2 mids (1 microwarp in one). What would be good mods for these slots for extra survivability. - Straight answer is a fit that isn't cargo focused but again, it's highsec.
I know these are technical questions, but learning the nuts and bolts of a game is huge and i really want to like this game. I just don't want to die a lot doing so. Thank you.
All of that worry for highsec travel seems a bit excessive. I fly a Crane in highsec all the time and all I *ever* do is jump through a gate, hit Jump, hit cloak, wait.
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Paranoid Loyd
5094
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:53:17 -
[4] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:All of that worry for highsec travel seems a bit excessive. I fly a Crane in highsec all the time and all I *ever* do is jump through a gate, hit Jump, hit cloak, wait. I agree, but if understanding the minutia saves you even once, it is worth it.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Gallente Citizen 54682487
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:56:22 -
[5] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:1) It occasionally happens that you will be a few meters away from the gate when you decloak, you would have to be very unlucky to be caught, I don't know anyone who tries to catch BRs this way. Most are caught because they are not cloaking at all and it would be at the in-gate (while you align) not the out-gate.
1a) objects will not decloak you while in warp
2)You cannot be smartbombed while gatecloaked
2a) if there is an object within 2km you will not be able to cloak. This is best dealt with by burning away from the object and then cloaking asap
3)Yes, it is that simple
3a)Yes, this will work, most people are not patient enough to wait. The probability of this happening is very very slim.
3b)see 2a
Usually medium shield extender and adaptive invulnerability field
Thank you very much for the information. I had one follow up question, how long does the timer last for gate cloak? |
Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
3684
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:08:06 -
[6] - Quote
Gallente Citizen 54682487 wrote:Thank you very much for the information. I had one follow up question, how long does the timer last for gate cloak? One minute.
"I only lose ships when I fly with Azda." - Barry Cuttlefish
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
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Paranoid Loyd
5095
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:08:16 -
[7] - Quote
Gate cloak is 60 seconds.
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Timers
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
3684
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:10:13 -
[8] - Quote
Beat you by 1/6th of a gate cloak .
"I only lose ships when I fly with Azda." - Barry Cuttlefish
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
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Paranoid Loyd
5095
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:21:34 -
[9] - Quote
Only cause you didn't include the fancy link with all the timers.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Memphis Baas
395
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:33:13 -
[10] - Quote
From the point of view of the suicide ganker:
1. Ships often warp to 0 (no autopilot), so they get right on top of the gate, and then jump through. There's very little time to shoot them.
2. Once on the other side, the ship is positioned at some distance from the gate (15 km) and is gate-cloaked, which is actually complete invulnerability, so that a slower computer can load the solar system and the immediate area by the gate and show you what's going on.
3. As soon as you move or the gate-cloak expires, you become visible. At this point slow ships also take quite a while to align to the next gate. This is where the vulnerability is; you can be warp-disrupted (can't warp), you can be bumped (can't align), or you can just be alpha'd (one volley kills you).
3a. You cannot activate your cov-ops cloak while gate-cloaked. You must cause your gate-cloak to expire, by moving or by giving the order to warp, before you can activate your cov-ops cloak. Because of server lag, there is approximately 1 second of being visible in-between your gate-cloak and your cov-ops cloak.
3b. If the attacker (ctrl) triple-clicks you in the overview during this 1 second, his ship will try to target-lock you AND will move towards you. If he target-locks you, you cannot cloak. If you cov-ops cloak before he can target-lock you, he is still moving towards your exact position. If he has a fast ship (interceptor), he will intersect your last known position before your slow(er) ship can get 2km away, and he will decloak you by proximity.
The MWD-cloak trick is an attempt to move fast so you can get more than 2km away from your last visible position; it doesn't always work.
4. Objects or ships placed around the gate WILL decloak you or prevent you from engaging the cov-ops cloak. Some gate campers do it with a combination of containers, corpses, and their own ships positioned around the gate.
5. Lowsec has the additional danger of smartbombs, and 0.0 has the much bigger danger of bubbles, which will either pull you to a specific killzone, or prevent you from warping away right away.
Here's a guide. |
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Paranoid Loyd
5097
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 23:10:14 -
[11] - Quote
Also, keep in mind, while it may not hurt as much to be ganked while empty, your chances of being ganked are the same as if you are carrying billions as you cannot be cargo scanned so you should also be cloaking every jump even while empty.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Gallente Citizen 54682487
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 00:30:28 -
[12] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:From the point of view of the suicide ganker: 1. Ships often warp to 0 (no autopilot), so they get right on top of the gate, and then jump through. There's very little time to shoot them. 2. Once on the other side, the ship is positioned at some distance from the gate (15 km) and is gate-cloaked, which is actually complete invulnerability, so that a slower computer can load the solar system and the immediate area by the gate and show you what's going on. 3. As soon as you move or the gate-cloak expires, you become visible. At this point slow ships also take quite a while to align to the next gate. This is where the vulnerability is; you can be warp-disrupted (can't warp), you can be bumped (can't align), or you can just be alpha'd (one volley kills you). 3a. You cannot activate your cov-ops cloak while gate-cloaked. You must cause your gate-cloak to expire, by moving or by giving the order to warp, before you can activate your cov-ops cloak. Because of server lag, there is approximately 1 second of being visible in-between your gate-cloak and your cov-ops cloak. 3b. If the attacker (ctrl) triple-clicks you in the overview during this 1 second, his ship will try to target-lock you AND will move towards you. If he target-locks you, you cannot cloak. If you cov-ops cloak before he can target-lock you, he is still moving towards your exact position. If he has a fast ship (interceptor), he will intersect your last known position before your slow(er) ship can get 2km away, and he will decloak you by proximity. The MWD-cloak trick is an attempt to move fast so you can get more than 2km away from your last visible position; it doesn't always work. 4. Objects or ships placed around the gate WILL decloak you or prevent you from engaging the cov-ops cloak. Some gate campers do it with a combination of containers, corpses, and their own ships positioned around the gate. 5. Lowsec has the additional danger of smartbombs, and 0.0 has the much bigger danger of bubbles, which will either pull you to a specific killzone, or prevent you from warping away right away. Here's a guide.
So you cannot cloak if you are targeted? I did not know that.
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Paranoid Loyd
5098
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 00:36:07 -
[13] - Quote
That is correct, however, the tick that you can be locked is the same tick that you will be cloaking, so the chances of being caught if you are on the ball are very slim.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
600
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 00:59:32 -
[14] - Quote
All the tricks are nice, but honestly in high-sec your safety should be primarily a matter of strategy, not tactics. If you haven't scouted around and added known gank systems to your avoid list, you've already lost.
That said, running a blockade-runner makes you de facto invincible in high and low sec. MWD-cloak is unnecessary and will actually get you killed when you screw it up. Just warp to then click the cloak button and literally nothing can lock you down before you're gone unless you get unlucky on an acts-of-god, lottery-winning, struck-by-lightning three times level. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
543
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 01:42:08 -
[15] - Quote
when you come out on the other side of the gate you will be 12 km from the gate in a random direction and that is 12km from where the edges of the gate are rendered not the center of the gate so bigger gates have a larger area. There are some tricks to try and decloak a cov ops cloaker on the out gate, it's not exactly an easy thing to do but if the gate is bubbled and they pay attention to where you were when you cloaked it is definitely possible that they could decloak and catch you. Burning back to the gate is always an option to keep in mind.
As far as landing on a gate a warp bubble can only pull you out of warp if it is on grid with where you are going to land. But if the warp bubble is in line with your warp path and anywhere within 100km of your planed warp bubble collapse then they can pull you out of warp this is how drag bubble mechanics works and they can put something to decloak you right where you will land.
The kinds of questions that you are asking here are huge and there is way more info than can be covered in one or two forum posts. However I can give you some topics to look up. Look up gate camping and declaoking cov ops, Jester did a decent blog on this once. Look up a video that I believe was done by agony empire on interdictors I was almost 2 hours long but talked a lot about warp and warp bubble mechanics I would say a must watch for anyone planing on spending time in null. Basically you want to find out as much as possible about what people will be doing to catch you to try and avoid that.
Practice the warp and wait one second to hit the cloak trick in high sec. You will find that sometimes you land < 2500 meters and > 2000 meters so that you don't get uncloaked by the gate and can't jump. In those cases sometime it helps to manually uncloak and jump but you will have to get a feel for that. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23759
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:56:13 -
[16] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:3. As soon as you move or the gate-cloak expires, you become visible. Further to this, the decloaking animation may still show you as cloaked in your client when you move, you will however be visible on the overview and thus targetable.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
269
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:36:23 -
[17] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Also, keep in mind, while it may not hurt as much to be ganked while empty, your chances of being ganked are the same as if you are carrying billions as you cannot be cargo scanned so you should also be cloaking every jump even while empty. Excellent basic info and I agree with the cloaking for every jump even in high sec however in the interest opf being completely accurate with new / newer players there is a small correction needed here.
All 4 of the blockade runners are immune to cargo scanners period. The cloak plays no part in this it is a role bonus they were given with the last balance pass. |
Oraac Ensor
626
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:46:54 -
[18] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Also, keep in mind, while it may not hurt as much to be ganked while empty, your chances of being ganked are the same as if you are carrying billions as you cannot be cargo scanned so you should also be cloaking every jump even while empty. Excellent basic info and I agree with the cloaking for every jump even in high sec however in the interest opf being completely accurate with new / newer players there is a small correction needed here. All 4 of the blockade runners are immune to cargo scanners period. The cloak plays no part in this it is a role bonus they were given with the last balance pass. I'm a bit puzzled here. What exactly are you correcting?
Loyd has said quite clearly "you cannot be cargo scanned" in a blockade runner and explained why this makes cloaking essential whatever you may or may not be carrying.
Have I missed something? |
Paranoid Loyd
5110
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:30:38 -
[19] - Quote
I was not trying to infer that the cloak is necessary to not be scanned, the point is due to the fact that you can not be cargo scanned, gankers will shoot you just to see what is inside if you are being careless. We refer to it as BR roulette. If you are not cloaking and I can scan your fit and see that you have no tank, I can use a 15 mil isk cruiser to kill you. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you get nothing.
If you cloak every time right when you start to align you can not be locked and therefore can not be ship scanned or ganked.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4859
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 17:28:33 -
[20] - Quote
If you are uncloaked, assume you will be attacked.
Example: my last loss of a Crane happened because I made a mistake, and warped to Jita 4-4 instead of the insta-dock bookmark I have. One volley from an artillery Tornado was all it took. I had no cargo at the time [BR roulette]
So yes, you will want bookmarks for docking and undocking. [Tip: Jita 4 Moon 1 is aligned with the Jita 4-4 undock.]
Otherwise with gate travel, I've never had an issue, except when you emerge close to another ship (even a CONCORD vessel) and can't cloak immediately. |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1014
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 18:12:14 -
[21] - Quote
Gallente Citizen 54682487 wrote:I am working my way to a blockade runner and wanted to get the nuts and bolts of high sec transport survival. Basically suicide ganking.
I am looking for very detailed game mechanics information. You didn't ask this but just to be complete I will point out to all the new players that you can be equally, or even more vulnerable on a station as on a gate. Make sure you have proper insta-dock and insta-undock bookmarks for all the stations you regularly visit in a Blockade Runner. |
Degnar Oskold
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
157
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 19:20:43 -
[22] - Quote
I've lost 2 blockade runners in hisec. Both were in Jita. Once when undocking (then I started using insta undocks) and once when I accidentally warped to station instead of to my insta undock.
Since the last situation I took the additional precaution of putting enough of a buffer on my Prorator in hisec to withstand one volley of republic fleet phased plasma from a Tornado. In Jita, a Tornado can't get a second shot before Concord jams. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1117
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 19:42:32 -
[23] - Quote
my blockade runners are mostly fit for align time and warp speed. If I want capacity a Deep Space Transport is rather useful. MWD+cloak works, plus they can fit for a ton of ehp, not to mention that super overload bonus. I mostly fly in high and some low sec.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4862
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 21:46:41 -
[24] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:my blockade runners are mostly fit for align time and warp speed. If I want capacity a Deep Space Transport is rather useful. MWD+cloak works, plus they can fit for a ton of ehp, not to mention that super overload bonus. I mostly fly in high and some low sec. My Bustard DST has about as much EHP as a freighter.
Only thing is, I have to re-activate many modules after every jump |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
5101
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 02:39:40 -
[25] - Quote
OP, your best bet to learn how not to get ganked is to experiment with ganking yourself.
Learn what makes us say "ah, F it, we'll go for the other target instead".
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Samantha Falco
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:19:51 -
[26] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:
All of that worry for highsec travel seems a bit excessive. I fly a Crane in highsec all the time and all I *ever* do is jump through a gate, hit Jump, hit cloak, wait.
While it may seem excessive, there is nothing wrong with learning and practicing low/null sec survival techniques all the time, even in high sec. The more you use them, the more ingrained they become as a habit and will aid in survival when and were it counts. |
Jori McKie
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
241
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 16:41:53 -
[27] - Quote
This is effective in high and low. Running a BR active there is not much you can do wrong. You won't get caught in 95% of all cases using the cloak. That said you should always passive shield fit you BR for tank and as long as you don't haul maximum cargo for align. All BRs have more or less the same maximum cargo (~13k m^3), the same EHP passive tank (~21k-23k) and the same align time (< 4s). Exception is the Prorator due to the 4x lows you can have 2.9s align time but only 17k shield tank because it was meant to armor tank. As example Viator, rigged for max warp speed: ALL V 20.5k EHP 3.7s align
Quote:[Viator, Travel Passive] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Expanded Cargohold II
Large Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II EM Ward Amplifier II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot]
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
With 20k EHP and no resistance hole (~45%) you can survive at least 5 to 6 smartbombing BS (Rokhs with 3k volley) and easily 2x Tornado volley.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
354
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 14:24:47 -
[28] - Quote
Samantha Falco wrote:Freya Sertan wrote:
All of that worry for highsec travel seems a bit excessive. I fly a Crane in highsec all the time and all I *ever* do is jump through a gate, hit Jump, hit cloak, wait.
While it may seem excessive, there is nothing wrong with learning and practicing low/null sec survival techniques all the time, even in high sec. The more you use them, the more ingrained they become as a habit and will aid in survival when and were it counts.
Fight like you train. Train like you fight! |
Mike Whiite
Geuzen Inc
382
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 07:16:47 -
[29] - Quote
Within high and low sec you'll need to be very unlucky or very bad at the game to get caught in a blockade runner.
They are most vulnerable when undocking, so try to put station instajumps in place.
oh and use nano's instead of inertia stabilisers, and shield resistance amplifiers /shield boosters instead of shield extenders. (for the occasional smart bomb)
keeping your signature as low as possible, keeps you from getting locked |
Jori McKie
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
243
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 08:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote: oh and use nano's instead of inertia stabilisers, and shield resistance amplifiers /shield boosters instead of shield extenders. (for the occasional smart bomb)
keeping your signature as low as possible, keeps you from getting locked
Some errors: - Smartbomb damage is not affect by signature only by Bombs in 0.0. To survive smartbombs you need a buffer tank not an active tank like a shield booster. Actually a shield booster will be your death against smartbombs. - The sig bloom via stabs and/or shield extender doesn't really matter for locking times, the align time is what matters. In PvP sig plays a role in some combat situations.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
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