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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1245
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Posted - 2015.05.25 15:57:18 -
[181] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break. It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament. I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship". 1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships. 2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. 3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck". My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web. Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
First of all you are excluding all of PvE, including the fact that most PvP is paid for by PvE. Second of all, to win PvP is a good reason. You have been thoroughly schooled in your own thread repeatedly by multiple people.
I dont need to own a car. I could walk the 8 miles to work everyday if i wanted, and carry groceries from the store one meal at a time on my back. You dont need to own an air conditioner in the summer in Phoenix Arizona, you can just drink a couple of gallons of water a day.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1832
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Posted - 2015.05.25 17:30:50 -
[182] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote: Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone.
Arguably, they should of lost 1 ship (the first one pointed) and cut their losses at that point. The most funny stuff I find in that video is how long people bash their head on the brick wall of his tank somehow never realizing they are fighting a losing battle. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:58:09 -
[183] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote: Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone. Arguably, they should of lost 1 ship (the first one pointed) and cut their losses at that point. The most funny stuff I find in that video is how long people bash their head on the brick wall of his tank somehow never realizing they are fighting a losing battle.
They are all waiting for his Ancillary Shield Booster to reload, not even thinking that he could be using a normal booster + cap booster !
He was also very good at taking some armor dmg to make people think he almost died (even if not planned that way)
When you see a heavy shield tank start taking armor dmg you dont leave and cut your losses you throw all you have at it to get that kill |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners. Strange Phenomenon
64
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Posted - 2015.05.26 01:12:09 -
[184] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break. It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament. I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship". 1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships. 2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. 3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck". My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web. Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships. First of all you are excluding all of PvE, including the fact that most PvP is paid for by PvE. Second of all, to win PvP is a good reason. You have been thoroughly schooled in your own thread repeatedly by multiple people. I dont need to own a car. I could walk the 8 miles to work everyday if i wanted, and carry groceries from the store one meal at a time on my back. You dont need to own an air conditioner in the summer in Phoenix Arizona, you can just drink a couple of gallons of water a day.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships. And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law. link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1245
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Posted - 2015.05.26 04:05:18 -
[185] - Quote
Quote:...
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships. And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law. link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514
Its actually an excellent analogy. It would take 2 hours to walk to work at 4 mph or 15 minutes driving the speed limit. Doing a level 4 mission in a Vargur vs a Hurricane would produce a very similar ratio of completion times.
A situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game has already been presented, bashing a POS in a C1 - C4 wormhole, or hisec. level 4 missions are another. Running sites in a c3 wormhole is another. Rattng in many low and null systems is another. Incursions are another. There are numerous killmails where a lone battleship is the victor.
And dont try to change the argument to t1 battleship, as everything above a t1 battleship requires training BS in the first place.
Your answer to my air conditioning analogy is yet another strawman fallacy. You do not have to rent your dwelling in AZ. It is neither a legal nor actual requirement to live there.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15966
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Posted - 2015.05.26 04:16:10 -
[186] - Quote
Aza Eban wrote: That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships. And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law. link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514
Any t1 or t2 cruiser vs rapid heavy raven. The raven will moonwalk its way to victory without breaking a sweat.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Cetaphil Thrace
Mikagami
28
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Posted - 2015.05.26 17:37:30 -
[187] - Quote
Hell yes awesome video! |
Perihelion Olenard
208
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Posted - 2015.05.26 18:46:29 -
[188] - Quote
That megathron at the end of the video should have easily had him if he were blaster fit with a heavy cap booster. I looked up that megathron fitting, and it had 425mm meta rails with regular antimatter. Not exactly fantastic if he lets the target get that close with no web or scram. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1659
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Posted - 2015.05.26 23:36:45 -
[189] - Quote
Either way, an excellent video. A well made fake, as BS's obviously suck. Right? The Golem vid was simply enthralling also.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15977
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Posted - 2015.05.27 03:31:55 -
[190] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:That megathron at the end of the video should have easily had him if he were blaster fit with a heavy cap booster. I looked up that megathron fitting, and it had 425mm meta rails with regular antimatter. Not exactly fantastic if he lets the target get that close with no web or scram. It looks like he was fit to be in a fleet with logistics.
It was trying to bump the hype off the gate.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Gh0stBust3rs
Wraith Shadow Guards
78
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Posted - 2015.05.31 05:17:49 -
[191] - Quote
Just because I cant help myself this id----newb in need of training joined IRC... He is doomed to fail now.
Lost another Typhoon as well https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/46920196/ |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16007
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Posted - 2015.05.31 10:18:35 -
[192] - Quote
Yet another pve fit
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2015.05.31 10:30:29 -
[193] - Quote
Battleships are so bad it was a T2 Battleship and a frigate using battleship weapons that killed him :P |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus Odin's Call
897
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Posted - 2015.05.31 13:42:09 -
[194] - Quote
the real travesty is the T1 fit and NO rigs :(
No Worries
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Cetaphil Thrace
Mikagami
28
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Posted - 2015.05.31 19:23:03 -
[195] - Quote
That fit was terrible, and he wasn't killed by a frig, it was a team including a bs |
Walter Pryst
Mediocracy
0
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Posted - 2015.06.01 00:42:15 -
[196] - Quote
So the main point of contention seems to be not IF a battleship is useful, but rather what are the reasons you'd want it over something else. I haven't seen a real list of those reasons yet, but I think a lot of it would come down to the following:
* alpha. This is a big one, in large fleet fights reps don't work if ships are vollied off. You can fit cruisers and BCs to withstand like a BS, but it limits your selection a lot * up sizing. When I only have 3 people online, getting the extra slots, tanks and dps out of each ship matters. The rest of this thread backs up the viability of BS is roles like this * damage. Much like alpha, getting true BS dps out of much other than T3 BCs with large guns is hard. This limits a lot, where as most BS can do serious damage without gimping
You can call me Walt
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
78
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Posted - 2015.06.04 20:52:54 -
[197] - Quote
Walter Pryst wrote:So the main point of contention seems to be not IF a battleship is useful, but rather what are the reasons you'd want it over something else. I haven't seen a real list of those reasons yet, but I think a lot of it would come down to the following:
* alpha. This is a big one, in large fleet fights reps don't work if ships are vollied off. You can fit cruisers and BCs to withstand like a BS, but it limits your selection a lot * up sizing. When I only have 3 people online, getting the extra slots, tanks and dps out of each ship matters. The rest of this thread backs up the viability of BS is roles like this * damage. Much like alpha, getting true BS dps out of much other than T3 BCs with large guns is hard. This limits a lot, where as most BS can do serious damage without gimping
Well thought. |
Devasha Detrasha
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.08 09:08:16 -
[198] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:big miker wrote:big miker wrote:
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic, in the first clip of the first video you used 3 of the 5 recommendations I stated yesterday that OP dismissed because he knows more than me. You need to re read the thread. While I appreciate big miker's input, hitting smaller is only a small part of my discussion. Again, any ship can fit/drone/etc... to take on another ship. Just why would you use a battleship to do it ? Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse). If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills. When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.
So heavy neuts will drain any frig/cruiser cap dry or?
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SHADOWWALKER shadows
Haight Industries LLC Absolute Damage Inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.06.08 11:07:06 -
[199] - Quote
You clearly have not been in a marauder, train for a kronos with t2 fit and you will be amazed at its effectivness(talking in terms of pve) over 1000 dps for my kronos on another toon of mine. I live in wormholes and use the kronos to solo c4 sites which is making me easily 200mil an hour (does depend on the number of combat sites are in the hole at that given time. Some other examples of battleships being used in pvp though, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parsL-K9l6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYHdM0sqLDk and an example of how my kronos fitted(similar but not exact) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waACuI-T3X8 |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
299
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Posted - 2015.06.08 14:19:44 -
[200] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Devasha Detrasha wrote:
Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse).
If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills.
When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.
So heavy neuts will drain any frig/cruiser cap dry or?
Heavy neuts will insta-cap a frig and normally 2 cycle a cruiser. The catch with heavies is long cycle time. A frig with a nos will be able to keep cap managable under heavy neut. A cap boosted cruiser or frig will also be able to manage. However, if they have a cap dependent active tank they will start to run into trouble.
Its best used at neuting tackle right as they come in to 20-24km as they will have mwd shut down and will drift into you. Very easy to kill at that point.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
162
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Posted - 2015.06.08 15:34:10 -
[201] - Quote
Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.
Nothing wrong with a sizable group of people unhappy with content letting their sub lapse for a week to demonstrate this. I think it is in everyone's interest to send a message, rather than let enough straws build up to break the camel for good.
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Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
638
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Posted - 2015.06.08 23:13:50 -
[202] - Quote
Battleships are the victims of cumulative module nerfs:
ECM. Nos. Webs.
These utility modules meant that the pure slot-advantage of a BS allowed them to be useful and effective where frigates/cruisers could not. I'm not saying these modules shouldn't have been nerfed, just that the consequences are now apparent.
Now they have weapons that can only hit other BS or heavily tackled smaller targets, they are too hard to move long distances and logistics for re-arming a fleet with lost BS are insanely impractical.
Long story short battleships don't have anything they do well enough to justify them being used over HAC's or attack battlecruisers. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2015.06.08 23:49:17 -
[203] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:
I applaud your pointing out the stupidity of some of the statements in the thread but the fact remains that other than drone boats, HAC's and T3's make up 90% of eve fleet combat. It's not an argument; If BS where better, they'd be used more... they aren't, so they don't get used in PVP.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png (from this dev blog http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla?_ga=1.32444796.391044756.1431445780)
Only Cruiser (assume this means t1) and HAC do more overall dmg in PvP than battleship, T3 Cruisers are slightly behind and frigates behind there again is longer behind battleship than battleship is behind HAC.
Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
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Miss Moist
I is a Ferret
0
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Posted - 2015.06.09 01:40:45 -
[204] - Quote
Got to wonder how much of the BS damage is made up entirely of the Dominix and POCO bashing. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
91
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Posted - 2015.06.09 05:37:24 -
[205] - Quote
SHADOWWALKER shadows wrote: Nope not talking about a marauder. T1 battleships for the cost and skill points are only good for station bashing and PVE content. PVPing in one is a liability. Sure, they are fun to fly, but not as effective as other options for the cost and Skill points. Since you like them, and have not experienced all of them, let me show you how the empire's battleships measure up against each other in PVP:
Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
91
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Posted - 2015.06.09 05:42:59 -
[206] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs. Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too. |
BeeHaw Bocadotsu
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.06.09 06:37:30 -
[207] - Quote
LOLOL, Dis killboard gave me back my 6 pack abs, LOLOLOLOL
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1353
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Posted - 2015.06.09 11:14:28 -
[208] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote: Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash.
If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1088
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Posted - 2015.06.09 11:17:51 -
[209] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs. Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too.
Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go.
Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2015.06.09 11:34:14 -
[210] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote: Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash. If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck
Cruisers are clearly the most used ships, but saying battleships are terrible when its just Cruisers + HAC that do mor eoverall PvP damage is just wrong.
T3 Cruisers do less than Battleships, Dreads do less (10x paper dps), Supercarrier do less (10-20x paper dps).
Could Battleships use some buffs here and there, sure, but they are largely used in PvP and do 3rd most pvp dmg of any class of ships in the game. If battleships are not worth training but battlecruisers and large weapons (Battlecruisers+Stealth Bombers) are worth it and capital ships are worth it (need BS skill to fly...). What makes Battleships so bad? |
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