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Eridon Hermetz
Ghosts'n Stuff Drama Sutra
33
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Posted - 2015.06.09 11:47:39 -
[211] - Quote
IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD) T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
302
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Posted - 2015.06.09 14:51:41 -
[212] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:SHADOWWALKER shadows wrote: Nope not talking about a marauder. T1 battleships for the cost and skill points are only good for station bashing and PVE content. PVPing in one is a liability. Sure, they are fun to fly, but not as effective as other options for the cost and Skill points. Since you like them, and have not experienced all of them, let me show you how the empire's battleships measure up against each other in PVP: Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar
How exactly is it a liability to pvp in one? My typhoon begs to differ, both t1 and FI. Also you have insurance, after insurance a t1 BS costs roughly 60-80m depending on fit. Show me a cruiser that can shoot 800-1k dps out to 60km, that has 100k+ EHP, 24km neut(s) and can fit an MJD to escape from things faster than you. All the while costing 60-80m. You won't find one.
Just the past couple days ive killed t3d, AF, and faction cruisers in my phoon. While doing this ive been chased by blobs, fought linked ships, got around gate camps and avoided many attempts at being probed down (70 SS FI phoon.. heh gl prober). So, ive avoided all the usual compliants about BS and came out on top.
Im sry your PVE phoon keeps dying because you dont know how to be aware of your surroundings, but that is not the BS' fault, but the pilot flying it.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
565
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Posted - 2015.06.09 15:00:21 -
[213] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:So, the real question is: What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?
A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls.
Double their EHP. For starters.
Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Ghaustyl Kathix
Quantum Singularities Half Massed
57
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Posted - 2015.06.09 16:38:59 -
[214] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Double their EHP. For starters.
Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds. If you go that route, you'd have to increase repair/boost amount, otherwise the Hyperion and Maelstrom might fall behind horribly
That said, I've had some success with battleships in PvP with mixed fleets with battleships as support. No, you probably can't catch a cruiser gang with your battleship gang, but the cruiser wing of your gang can catch them and then you drop the hammer with your Armageddon, Megathron or Tempest. They're good when speed isn't an issue, and when you have stasis webs and sometimes target painters to make sure your guns can hit. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:06:49 -
[215] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:afkalt wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote: Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash. If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck Cruisers are clearly the most used ships, but saying battleships are terrible when its just Cruisers + HAC that do mor eoverall PvP damage is just wrong. T3 Cruisers do less than Battleships, Dreads do less (10x paper dps), Supercarrier do less (10-20x paper dps). Could Battleships use some buffs here and there, sure, but they are largely used in PvP and do 3rd most pvp dmg of any class of ships in the game. If battleships are not worth training but battlecruisers and large weapons (Battlecruisers+Stealth Bombers) are worth it and capital ships are worth it (need BS skill to fly...). What makes Battleships so bad? Read the OP. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:29:30 -
[216] - Quote
But it's wrong....
Just because they're not represented doesn't mean they can't be. A disgusting amount of PvP DPS is spent grinding structures, which means Ishtars and VNI....it's a huge skew, domis contribute but are less agile so tend not to be as much.
You see a good number of battleship videos where they're smashing entire gangs and that's ONE battleship. The usually don't have more because everyone would just run away. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 20:19:27 -
[217] - Quote
afkalt wrote: Just because they're not represented doesn't mean they can't be. A disgusting amount of PvP DPS is spent grinding structures, which means Ishtars and VNI....it's a huge skew, domis contribute but are less agile so tend not to be as much.
Indeed this is true. Being less agile in EVE means being a punching bag. Again VNI has an advantage that although a battleship can do more damage, makes it less preferred. In other words the risks aren't really worth it. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
93
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Posted - 2015.06.09 20:26:54 -
[218] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs. Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too. Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go. Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away. Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:05:01 -
[219] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
The isk argument goes out the door when you start flying t2/t3 cruisers, after insurance they cost 2-3 or more times as much as T1 battleships. For SP invested i once again ask you to show us a Cruiser (t2/t3) fitting with X number of SP so the people defending battleships can counter you argument (that you felt the need to make this post for)
Give us a baseline for ISK/SP/Fitting (dps/tank/whatever). |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1088
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:19:18 -
[220] - Quote
You read the OP. Then check out that dudes KB history. It makes me wonder why we would even discuss the issue with him. He has zero experience flying BS, so he really doesn't have a basis for anything he says. Not old enough to fly a BS and zero pvp experience.
If you know the guy, do him and the rest of us a favor.... pull him to the side and quietly tell him that ranting on some theory that he doesn't even have actual experience with is kind of.... not good. It's no wonder we can't reason with him. He doesn't even have a reasonable base of understanding to build on.
Shame on us all for this. (I especially blame Baltec1 - of all people he should know better) |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:31:39 -
[221] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs. Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too. Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go. Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away. Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
What isk and skills? They cost less than a HAC after insurance and fitting and can be flown (much) quicker.
They could do with more off-grid mobility, i.e. travel help. to make them less annoying to roam with, that's about it. That's also what's really holding them back from their full potential as it stops folks taking them out as it shortens the potential route over the course of a fixed time window. i.e. not fun.
Naff all to do with them not having enough grunt once they land though.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
93
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Posted - 2015.06.09 23:08:09 -
[222] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:You read the OP. Then check out that dudes KB history. It makes me wonder why we would even discuss the issue with him. He has zero experience flying BS, so he really doesn't have a basis for anything he says. Not old enough to fly a BS and zero pvp experience.
If you know the guy, do him and the rest of us a favor.... pull him to the side and quietly tell him that ranting on some theory that he doesn't even have actual experience with is kind of.... not good. It's no wonder we can't reason with him. He doesn't even have a reasonable base of understanding to build on.
Shame on us all for this. (I especially blame Baltec1 - of all people he should know better) Yes I agree that you shouldn't discuss this issue on this forum. You are too busy reading kill boards instead of the OP. All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bashing. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9173
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Posted - 2015.06.09 23:32:23 -
[223] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD) T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents But it's the same with most all subcaps. You train T1 to train T2. T2 is usually better than T1, at least for specific roles. T1's are insurable thus far-far cheaper to operate. imo this thread makes absolutely no sense. OP doesn't like T1 BS', but he says his opinion doesn't apply to Marauders. So don't train BS but training for a Marauder is ok? How do you do that w/o training for T1 BS first?? Have you even flown any BS on the test server, OP? This thread just seems like a long troll. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 02:02:21 -
[224] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Eridon Hermetz wrote:IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD) T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents But it's the same with most all subcaps. You train T1 to train T2. T2 is usually better than T1, at least for specific roles. T1's are insurable thus far-far cheaper to operate. imo this thread makes absolutely no sense. OP doesn't like T1 BS', but he says his opinion doesn't apply to Marauders. So don't train BS but training for a Marauder is ok? How do you do that w/o training for T1 BS first?? Have you even flown any BS on the test server, OP? This thread just seems like a long troll. When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16101
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 02:53:20 -
[225] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE?
To kill entire fleets alone.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 03:02:33 -
[226] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE?
Find a combination of 2 sub Battleships that a will kill a good Marauder, |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16101
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 04:12:10 -
[227] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
Who is talking theory?
I have shown you a number of videos of battleships ripping apart up to 40 man fleets solo. Here is a solo typhoon and a raven vs your "superior fast tankers"
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16101
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 04:14:18 -
[228] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:RavenPaine wrote:So, the real question is: What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?
A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls. Double their EHP. For starters. Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds.
You were saying?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Icarius
The Wings of Maak
27
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Posted - 2015.06.10 08:22:52 -
[229] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD) T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents
Would you engage my typhoon fleet?, i am not sure
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Eridon Hermetz
Ghosts'n Stuff Drama Sutra
34
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Posted - 2015.06.10 09:28:43 -
[230] - Quote
huehuehuehuehue !
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9194
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Posted - 2015.06.10 10:04:45 -
[231] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE? And you play..... EVE? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUE8LWAUhSg
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Switch Savage
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
116
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Posted - 2015.06.10 10:10:27 -
[232] - Quote
Aza Ebanu you can sit and say T1 Battleships are only useful for structure grinding. But to do so you have to flat out ignore the people out there every day using them successfully in solo and small gang environments. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
304
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 14:43:51 -
[233] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:You read the OP. Then check out that dudes KB history. It makes me wonder why we would even discuss the issue with him. He has zero experience flying BS, so he really doesn't have a basis for anything he says. Not old enough to fly a BS and zero pvp experience.
If you know the guy, do him and the rest of us a favor.... pull him to the side and quietly tell him that ranting on some theory that he doesn't even have actual experience with is kind of.... not good. It's no wonder we can't reason with him. He doesn't even have a reasonable base of understanding to build on.
Shame on us all for this. (I especially blame Baltec1 - of all people he should know better) Yes I agree that you shouldn't discuss this issue on this forum. You are too busy reading kill boards instead of the OP. All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bashing.
Reviewing your KB is a good way to deteemine how much experience you have with the class in question (in your case, almost non-existant). Seriously, youre flying a BS with t1 fittings and then ***** about BS being bad?.. BS arent bad, youre just not skilled for them in the least.
To answer your question though
Aza Ebanu wrote:All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bash.
PvP, more specifically, either solo or being supported by a gang. The dps/utility a BS brings with is very useful when fit properly. No cruiser can match heavy neuts, nor can they fit MJD.
Ive already presented you an example in which you did not respond to, but responded to everyone elses. But ill try again. What other ship can get over 100k EHP, do 800-1200dps, fit an MJD, and fit heavy neuts? There isnt one that can do all of that at once. Except battleships.
The other thing to keep in mind is because BS are rarely seen rolling around solo, they are great bait ships. Someone sees a lonely BS and thinks "easy kill" when theyre in their 5-10 man gang. I get good fights that i may not get in something like a gila/ishtar/deimos etc because they know those ships are deadly to other cruisers/frigs. For BS, when they see it, they think someone like you (unskilled, lack of experience, t1 garbage) is flying it and will be easy to overwhelm.
When their tackle jackdaw or svipul die in 3 vollies they immediately regret their decisions and leave.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
604
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 17:20:56 -
[234] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:huehuehuehuehue !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4Y4keqTV6w
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
93
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Posted - 2015.06.10 23:17:19 -
[235] - Quote
Switch Savage wrote:Aza Ebanu you can sit and say T1 Battleships are only useful for structure grinding. But to do so you have to flat out ignore the people out there every day using them successfully in solo and small gang environments. Oh I don't doubt that Battleships can be successful in a fleet. or a gang for that matter. I just feel like battleships don't fulfill a role other ships could take and even be better at it. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
93
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Posted - 2015.06.10 23:27:16 -
[236] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bash. PvP, more specifically, either solo or being supported by a gang. The dps/utility a BS brings with is very useful when fit properly. No cruiser can match heavy neuts, nor can they fit MJD. That is provided your battleship's layout/role supports fitting neuts. .... |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
307
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 01:52:23 -
[237] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bash. PvP, more specifically, either solo or being supported by a gang. The dps/utility a BS brings with is very useful when fit properly. No cruiser can match heavy neuts, nor can they fit MJD. That is provided your battleship's layout/role supports fitting neuts. ....
Then don't use those battleship's to solo in. Not all battleships are viable in a solo role. Some work better in fleet settings, and require support ships. They can still fit MJD though, something cruisers cannot fit.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Kestral Anneto
The Founding Four Fidelas Constans
66
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Posted - 2015.06.11 07:28:15 -
[238] - Quote
the easy way to fix battleships is give them a jump drive that has (max skill) range of 2.5LY and a Point defense system (High slot module), that has a set % chance of destroying an incoming bomb. |
Valkin Mordirc
1105
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 07:54:53 -
[239] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:the easy way to fix battleships is give them a jump drive that has (max skill) range of 2.5LY and a Point defense system (High slot module), that has a set % chance of destroying an incoming bomb.
The only thing that would fix is making it Battleships Online rather than Cruiser's online.
Shifting the balance from one side to the other is not balance your only tipping the scale to something else. The only thing you get from that is Power Creep
#DeleteTheWeak
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Kestral Anneto
The Founding Four Fidelas Constans
66
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Posted - 2015.06.11 08:00:56 -
[240] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:the easy way to fix battleships is give them a jump drive that has (max skill) range of 2.5LY and a Point defense system (High slot module), that has a set % chance of destroying an incoming bomb. The only thing that would fix is making it Battleships Online rather than Cruiser's online. Shifting the balance from one side to the other is not balance your only tipping the scale to something else. The only thing you get from that is Power Creep
Maybe, however, cruisers would still have a place (in this scenario). Solo PvP? Frigate/Dezzie. Small Gang? Cruiser/Maybe Battlecruiser. Big fleet actions? Battleships/Capital ships. When you start getting 50+ people in a fleet, you SHOULD be aiming to use the best weapons platform for a prolonged fight, and that should be the larger ships. As I see it, cruisers are for raiding, get in, mess your target/area up and get out again. |
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