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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1521
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 23:38:29 -
[121] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen. But the risk is inherently due to plex mechanics landing you in a predictable place, not the lack of links. Pretty sure no one at CCP even thought about OGBs when plex mechanics were designed. To justify links by saying that fighting uphill in a plex would be impossible without them is just implying that links should be mandatory for anyone who doesn't want to obtain plex fights exclusively by occupying the plex first, and instead desires to fight on both opportunities (sitting inside and jumping into). In this regard, plex mechanics should change to favour neither player instead (through whatever method that would be), rather than give a free pass to those who "picked the right starting pokemon" and punish those who didn't. I highly doubt your decision to buy a link alt was a strategic decision and instead reactive in response to the power creep.
Boosts are older than FW. |
May Arethusa
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
69
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:17:55 -
[122] - Quote
Quote:It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs.
Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. For every person who claims not to fight because of links, there's someone who wouldn't fight without them. It's a crude approximation of course, but probably disturbingly accurate.
Risk assessment is the reason why a lot of people don't fight, and as the population ages it is only natural that they become better as a whole at evaluating the situation and deciding whether or not to take a fight. When I roam solo, I do so without links, and still find it difficult to get a fight. Either the occupant flees before i arrive, they're stabbed, or a frustrating mix of both. Plex mechanics are increasingly getting in the way of fights rather than facilitating them, and it's largely a result of the shift in focus FW has undergone.
System control means nothing beyond tier maintenance and docking rights, with the majority of systems having little or no value at all. With CCP's stance of medals being made abundantly clear recently, we've lost yet another reason for anyone to even consider flipping a war zone. It isn't until large entities decide to try their hand at FW that things heat up for a while, with BRAVE's recent arrival being a perfect example. Most "good" fights happen purely by accident, system sieges have had most of the fun sucked out of them by increasingly isk efficient doctrines being favoured due to their attritional nature.
Third parties control most of the meaningful assets within the war zones, which leaves militias essentially manufacturing ganks and easy kills as they roam around looking for fights that simply won't materialise, and if they do, one side has usually one-upped the other, which means the fight never happens.
In the end, links have very little to do with the stagnant nature of FW. Without a significant overhaul of the FW mechanics, I don't expect much to change. I'll leave you with a brief exchange I witnessed earlier today that perfectly highlights why FW is broken. A quick check of their killboards while I was running my plex revealed both were quad-stabbed with no weapons fitted. Also present in system, but silent for the duration was a similarly quad-stabbed Navy Vexor pilot.
Ranma Roxx > xFleuryx go the **** awas Ranma Roxx > away Ranma Roxx > if you please xFleuryx > no screw u, this is my site xFleuryx > i started it Ranma Roxx > i was first here Ranma Roxx > go away xFleuryx > I was xFleuryx > already 1 min off Ranma Roxx > gal mil have more manners as you xFleuryx > u just got here xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif Ranma Roxx > no Ranma Roxx > yesturday the same xFleuryx > then leave Ranma Roxx > you always **** in my plexes arround xFleuryx > I was here first May Arethusa > so cute xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > it's so anoying xFleuryx > Melancholy I i'm quad stabbed, come to the medium and kill this incursus Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > so poor xFleuryx > dude xFleuryx > leave Ranma Roxx > no i was first xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > no u weren't xFleuryx > ask Melancholy I Melancholy I > holy **** this local chat is cancer, you win, i leave xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > fly save Message > Site has been captured. Ranma Roxx > i think we will share the next years our lps xFleuryx > guess so Ranma Roxx > deal! May Arethusa > yeah, if only either of you had guns to resolve the issue properly xFleuryx > hey Galenros May Arethusa i'll call you when there's 1 min left on this medium, can come grab some quick LP if you want Galenros > no ty, dont use lp atm, but ty for the offer xFleuryx > k, np Galenros > should cash in the current ones in some point as well... n++Galenros > you guys have fun here and shoot those reds away :) xFleuryx > lol :) Galenros > 07 xFleuryx > 7o n++Ranma Roxx > i feel disapponted Ranma Roxx > you here sine two days? xFleuryx > i'm going to be here all month Ranma Roxx > as i see galmil have got more manners as you xFleuryx > but ya xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif. stop talking Ranma Roxx > you're funny Ranma Roxx > :D Ranma Roxx > thank you for entertaiment xFleuryx > lol, w/e xFleuryx > enjou half the LP for the next month Ranma Roxx > i think you will lose more Ranma Roxx > how many chars do you run? Ranma Roxx > :) xFleuryx > i'm running incursions right now, LP is worth nothing lol xFleuryx > I have 6 toons on 3 accounts Ranma Roxx > that's nice Ranma Roxx > and now? xFleuryx > it's not bad xFleuryx > what? Ranma Roxx > how many are in a plex right now? xFleuryx > just one Ranma Roxx > u see you loose xFleuryx > other 2 are runnning boosted for an incusrion, and the other one is flying it in xFleuryx > lose what? Ranma Roxx > more lp as i xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > so be afk again bab Ranma Roxx > *a xFleuryx > I make 240mil an hour if both my toons are runnig sites xFleuryx > keep your ****** LP
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
680
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 03:17:57 -
[123] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:Quote:It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. For every person who claims not to fight because of links, there's someone who wouldn't fight without them. It's a crude approximation of course, but probably disturbingly accurate. Risk assessment is the reason why a lot of people don't fight, and as the population ages it is only natural that they become better as a whole at evaluating the situation and deciding whether or not to take a fight. When I roam solo, I do so without links, and still find it difficult to get a fight. Either the occupant flees before i arrive, they're stabbed, or a frustrating mix of both. Plex mechanics are increasingly getting in the way of fights rather than facilitating them, and it's largely a result of the shift in focus FW has undergone. System control means nothing beyond tier maintenance and docking rights, with the majority of systems having little or no value at all. With CCP's stance of medals being made abundantly clear recently, we've lost yet another reason for anyone to even consider flipping a war zone. It isn't until large entities decide to try their hand at FW that things heat up for a while, with BRAVE's recent arrival being a perfect example. Most "good" fights happen purely by accident, system sieges have had most of the fun sucked out of them by increasingly isk efficient doctrines being favoured due to their attritional nature. Third parties control most of the meaningful assets within the war zones, which leaves militias essentially manufacturing ganks and easy kills as they roam around looking for fights that simply won't materialise, and if they do, one side has usually one-upped the other, which means the fight never happens. In the end, links have very little to do with the stagnant nature of FW. Without a significant overhaul of the FW mechanics, I don't expect much to change. I'll leave you with a brief exchange I witnessed earlier today that perfectly highlights why FW is broken. A quick check of their killboards while I was running my plex revealed both were quad-stabbed with no weapons fitted. Also present in system, but silent for the duration was a similarly quad-stabbed Navy Vexor pilot. Ranma Roxx > xFleuryx go the **** awas Ranma Roxx > away Ranma Roxx > if you please xFleuryx > no screw u, this is my site xFleuryx > i started it Ranma Roxx > i was first here Ranma Roxx > go away xFleuryx > I was xFleuryx > already 1 min off Ranma Roxx > gal mil have more manners as you xFleuryx > u just got here xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif Ranma Roxx > no Ranma Roxx > yesturday the same xFleuryx > then leave Ranma Roxx > you always **** in my plexes arround xFleuryx > I was here first May Arethusa > so cute xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > it's so anoying xFleuryx > Melancholy I i'm quad stabbed, come to the medium and kill this incursus Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > so poor xFleuryx > dude xFleuryx > leave Ranma Roxx > no i was first xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > no u weren't xFleuryx > ask Melancholy I Melancholy I > holy **** this local chat is cancer, you win, i leave xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > fly save Message > Site has been captured. Ranma Roxx > i think we will share the next years our lps xFleuryx > guess so Ranma Roxx > deal! May Arethusa > yeah, if only either of you had guns to resolve the issue properly xFleuryx > hey Galenros May Arethusa i'll call you when there's 1 min left on this medium, can come grab some quick LP if you want Galenros > no ty, dont use lp atm, but ty for the offer xFleuryx > k, np Galenros > should cash in the current ones in some point as well... n++Galenros > you guys have fun here and shoot those reds away :) xFleuryx > lol :) Galenros > 07 xFleuryx > 7o n++Ranma Roxx > i feel disapponted Ranma Roxx > you here sine two days? xFleuryx > i'm going to be here all month Ranma Roxx > as i see galmil have got more manners as you xFleuryx > but ya xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif. stop talking Ranma Roxx > you're funny Ranma Roxx > :D Ranma Roxx > thank you for entertaiment xFleuryx > lol, w/e xFleuryx > enjou half the LP for the next month Ranma Roxx > i think you will lose more Ranma Roxx > how many chars do you run? Ranma Roxx > :) xFleuryx > i'm running incursions right now, LP is worth nothing lol xFleuryx > I have 6 toons on 3 accounts Ranma Roxx > that's nice Ranma Roxx > and now? xFleuryx > it's not bad xFleuryx > what? Ranma Roxx > how many are in a plex right now? xFleuryx > just one Ranma Roxx > u see you loose xFleuryx > other 2 are runnning boosted for an incusrion, and the other one is flying it in xFleuryx > lose what? Ranma Roxx > more lp as i xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > so be afk again bab Ranma Roxx > *a xFleuryx > I make 240mil an hour if both my toons are runnig sites xFleuryx > keep your ****** LP
Bob wept.
|
per
Terpene Conglomerate
76
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 13:01:52 -
[124] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Boosts are older than FW.
well they might be older than fw but they havent been always so op |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1525
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 13:35:32 -
[125] - Quote
No, they used to be slightly more powerful. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4109
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 13:45:15 -
[126] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:Quote:It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. I disagree.
Assuming you enjoy EVE PVP, you'll fight if:
a) you have the necessary resources (ISK, logistics in the hauling sense, SP to fly the appropriate ship, etc.)
b) you believe you have a reasonable chance to win, or at least have an enjoyable fight for example killing something before you die
FW LP, a decently organised corp (or DIY hauling if you enjoy it) and some patience (training time) pretty much take care of a).
Regarding b), everyone has their own personal risk adversity, some low some high, that's a given independently of game mechanics. The fact with OGB though is that it adds a pretty significant level of uncertainty to everyone's pre-fight risk-assessment.
Yes, over time you come to know the 'usual suspects' who always fly boosted in a certain area. But if you like to roam you'll often be in a situation where you really don't know who's boosted and who's not.
So I'll throw in a simple idea: make 'boosted' (as in warfare links, not fleet leadership bonuses) a status that shows up in local and on-grid (same as the 'suspect' status, for example). Then let the meta sort itself out, 'in the open' so to speak.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 17:16:08 -
[127] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:No, they used to be slightly more powerful.
T3s came after faction war.
Although that was the point where people could start using boosts the percentages of people actually using them did not seem to get out of hand until later.
The bonuses themselves may have decreased but because ccp gave us other mods that work especially well with ogb like better active tank ships and mods as well as better bonuses to those mods there effect was largely unaffected and over the years they have arguably even become more powerfull.
Of course with time there will continue to be more available characters trained with the leadership and other skills necessary to run ogb. And I think we see more and more of their use. (but I admit that is somewhat anecdotal afaik ccp has not released any data on how many more kills use a booster. I would love to see that data.)
CCP did allot of things that made low sec pvp much better over the last few years e.g., fw and crime watch changes. And according to dotlan in 2013 and 2014 we had over 4 million kills in low sec. In 2015 we are currently sitting at about 2.8 million. Now we still have 2.7 months to go. And there are allot of null sec entities coming in. But it is good to see the statistics before the influx of null sec pilots which for reasons unrelated to low sec mechanics might boost the pvp. So we see 4m/12 = over 333k kills/ month for 2013 and 2014. 2015 we have 2.8/10.3 =271k kills per month. Thats a 20% decline.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015
2013 and 2014 saw much more pvp than 2012 and earlier years. You would think as people get more pvp fights that in itself would draw more people to low sec and we would see the numbers continue to snowball upward. Even with the numbers plateauing in 2013-2014 that would be a sign something is amiss. That is what makes this reversing of the trend particularly odd.
Faction war hasn't changed that much since then. Other low sec mechanics haven't changed that much AFAIK. I would at least posit that the ogb cancer spreading is a very important factor.
If you want to blame bad null sec changes for the decline in numbers generally that really shouldn't effect low sec pvp that much. If anything we are seeing many of those players would come over to low sec so it might actually be helping low sec.
I did also predict that the changes to faction war done on october 22nd 2012 would eventually lead to stagnation. But I would have thought that the increase in kills in 2013 could have made up for that at least in the kill statistics. Sure people might have less interest in faction war sov but I would think the increase in pvp would continue to draw more players.
I have a strong hunch broken ogbs are a big contributing reason for this decline. But I would be interested in other views.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1525
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 17:27:42 -
[128] - Quote
No they arnt.
There has been little appetite to fight for sov in meat grinders until this month and brave entering FW, but the choice not to push the warzone and generate ludicrous numbers of kills has not at all had anything to do with OGB or FW stagnating. Sorry.
It simply takes a level of willpower and support to mobilise and deploy and up to now no one has pressed that button for a while. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 18:05:04 -
[129] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:No they arnt.
There has been little appetite to fight for sov in meat grinders until this month and brave entering FW, but the choice not to push the warzone and generate ludicrous numbers of kills has not at all had anything to do with OGB or FW stagnating. Sorry.
No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing.
The question is what has lead players to be uninterested in pushing the warzone to generate pvp? Now if all of a sudden null sec got so much better that might explain why low sec became stagnant. (but the statistics don't really show that)
I agree that null sec corps coming to faction war space (and some even into faction war) should help increase the kills. But it would be odd to then say ogb has increased the pvp in low sec. These groups coming to fw low sec is not because low sec all of a sudden got better. At least it objectively has not changed since 2013 other than having fewer kills and people. I don't think these groups would think fewer kills and fewer people is good. It has more to do with these groups' perception that null sec got worse for them.
In the end we should try to isolate and remove confounding variables like what is happening in null sec in assessing how things are going in low sec. We should expect that if pvp increases in low sec as it did in 2013 then it should continue to snowball up if nothing else is at work. More people coming to low sec and finding more and more pvp should lead to more people coming to low sec for pvp and more pvp etc etc. Saddly we did not see that. We saw a proliferation of ogb in low sec and the amount of pvp plateaued and is now actually dropping.
What other causes do you attribute this to other than ogb proliferating?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1525
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 18:13:17 -
[130] - Quote
Lack of a narrative to drive a huge operation. The foresight to know the costs in time, isk and sleep for those involved and the fact that it was really up to caldari to roll the dice in our warzone since gallente was pretty much where we wanted to be. Cal mil lacked the confidence to push and the odd time they tried we smacked it down. Brave arriving has delivered the narrative, so it just come down to who has the most time, isk and sleeps the least :)
OGB wouldnt even feature on a list of why operations have been slow this year.
Amarr/matar WT is currently changing hands. Not sure how many fights they are getting but saying FW is stagnating when systems have started changing hands on all sides of the warzone would be incorrect. |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4110
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 18:52:56 -
[131] - Quote
Cearain wrote:No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing.
omissis
What other causes do you attribute this to other than ogb proliferating?
Though I certainly recognize the influence of OGB on the solo/small gang meta, I frankly never once, in 2+ years of FW fleet combat, heard a galmil FC take or not a fight because of boosts/lack of them.
We fly just as often with boost than without. When we have them, oftentimes the dude with the booster alt has to drop fleet at one point to go eat/work/make sweet love to his gf/whatever; no-one cares, we just keep on going. Maybe an hour after someone else puts links up, or maybe not, the squids die anyway.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
689
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 00:59:52 -
[132] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Cearain wrote:No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing.
omissis
What other causes do you attribute this to other than ogb proliferating?
Though I certainly recognize the influence of OGB on the solo/small gang meta, I frankly never once, in 2+ years of FW fleet combat, heard a galmil FC take or not a fight because of boosts/lack of them. We fly just as often with boost than without. When we have them, oftentimes the dude with the booster alt has to drop fleet at one point to go eat/work/make sweet love to his gf/whatever; no-one cares, we just keep on going. Maybe an hour after someone else puts links up, or maybe not, the squids die anyway.
I've never been in a serious (doctrine with logi) Galmil fleet that did not have at least one booster. Most of the active FC's have an OGB alt. The advantage in fleet EHP alone is just too overpowering.
Making a semi-AFK alt an entry requirement for PvP is bad. The argument that links create content because one guy can fly circles around unlinked e-uni and brave blobs is nonsense. For every fight like that there's many more that didn't happen because one side recognized the futility of trying to catch linked snaked nano kiters with no links of their own, and docked up. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1530
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 09:54:16 -
[133] - Quote
You think brave or eve uni dont have links? |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 13:44:12 -
[134] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You think brave or eve uni dont have links?
Are you asking if there is a single person in those entire alliances that has links? If so the answer is yes. Or are you asking if every pvp pilot from those corps always has links every time they pvp? Then the answer is no.
Again they get the impression that leaving the blob = getting ganked. Eve wasn't always that way.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1531
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 14:09:00 -
[135] - Quote
You seem to be speaking for a great many people there. Im not sure you have the perspective to do so. I think you are working on assumptions. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 14:29:21 -
[136] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You seem to be speaking for a great many people there. Im not sure you have the perspective to do so. I think you are working on assumptions.
Well we can look at the evidence. Which includes the fact that one of the most supported player requests that has yet to be implemented is to put boosts on grid. It is likely the most common topic that players have consistently told ccp is terrible for the game leading right up to the current decline in numbers.
Of course you are going to pretend you don't hear what the players are saying. And pretend ogb is not contributing to people choosing to do other things with their time.
Sure we can ask *how much* it is contributing to players not being as interested in the game. Even in my own case I can say I would probably go back to doing some low sec pvp if they removed ogb, but there are other things at work as well. But in light of the constant dissatisfaction expressed by players, one would have to be completely deaf to then wonder if it is effecting their interest in the game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1531
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 15:03:03 -
[137] - Quote
There is no conversation for keeping OGB OG. So its very hard to make a comparison. The vocal minority is never really representative of the whole. |
Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:12:35 -
[138] - Quote
Honestly this game is broken like piece of **** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it.
Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY.
So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN.
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
232
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:14:25 -
[139] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Honestly this game is broken like piece of **** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it.
Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY.
So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN.
Edit: I did the maths and I made today easily 330mil in 1h and 31 minutes. In lean back mode. Crazy.
Stop doing FW missions Colt, they rot your brain. Welcome back btw o7
All they need to do is nerf the excessive high tier bonus's to LP rewards and then implement the planned alterations to Missions that mean you have to risk a bit more. A FW Mission should not get 150% payout at tier 3, 175% at tier 4 and 225% at tier 5. They're too high.
I recommend the high tiers have no bonus's to rewards and should instead provide discounts on things that are not wealth accumulation. Such as discounts to repair costs, contract costs, manufacturing costs, research costs, Militia I-hub donation costs, concord sec status repair costs, etc..
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
530
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:38:59 -
[140] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing.
Sorry Cearain but you are wrong on this one. We don't push the warzone because we want an extremely strong PVP ecosystem at the moment. There are still enough people in Gal Mil with the know how, as well as pilots with the skills and gumption, to take the warzone. It would totally suck at the moment due to how much neckbearding we would have to do in the AU tz due to Cal AU tz strength, but it would be doable.
Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets.
- Than |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1545
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:42:59 -
[141] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Honestly this game is broken like piece of **** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it.
Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY.
So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN.
Edit: I did the maths and I made today easily 330mil in 1h and 31 minutes. In lean back mode. Crazy.
I dont see many people running missions in cal gal space. Perhaps the webbing frigs will fix them a little. Id be happy with just deleting them. Even now, if people running missions bothers you its trivial to go stop them. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
5
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Posted - 2015.10.20 14:39:25 -
[142] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h
Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds
Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? |
Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:03:58 -
[143] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote:Honestly this game is broken like piece of **** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it.
Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY.
So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN.
Edit: I did the maths and I made today easily 330mil in 1h and 31 minutes. In lean back mode. Crazy. Stop doing FW missions Colt, they rot your brain. Welcome back btw o7All they need to do is nerf the excessive high tier bonus's to LP rewards and then implement the planned alterations to Missions that mean you have to risk a bit more. A FW Mission should not get 150% payout at tier 3, 175% at tier 4 and 225% at tier 5. They're too high. I recommend the high tiers have no bonus's to rewards and should instead provide discounts on things that are not wealth accumulation. Such as discounts to repair costs, contract costs, manufacturing costs, research costs, Militia I-hub donation costs, concord sec status repair costs, etc..
THX but I am not back. On the other side I was never away. Had always 2 alts covering 3 militias. Best isk/h in game by far. NOT going back to lowsec "do not undock without ogb" pvp. Although I have my own booster now but I am not ************* enough to use it as "pro solo pvp".
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
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Arla Sarain
677
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:04:26 -
[144] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere? |
Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:07:49 -
[145] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ?
I have a good RL income but THX for the example/insult. But if you have ever been with russians, romanians or africans in a corp you get a bad conscience when you realise that europeans and us boys are doing pay2win with plex. On the other side the most east europeans would not be able to play without plex. Well everyone can do what he likes in this game.
Back on topic: Well t3ds get banned from smalls but are not good enough for mediums so what to do with em?
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
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Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:09:42 -
[146] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere?
From idiots who rat in sov 0.0 ofc. Tried it once while I was in NC and quit after 2h. Was even more dull than mining.
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
834
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:34:59 -
[147] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere?
It's funny that you think there aren't goon alts in FW. |
Arla Sarain
677
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:35:56 -
[148] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere? From idiots who rat in sov 0.0 ofc. Tried it once while I was in NC and quit after 2h. Was even more dull than mining. Ok so bar the continuous spouting about how much they are idiots, contrary to their current choice, if they decided to start being "smart" and moved up to FW, you don't think that the value of LP will fall? Not only will there be a saturation of items, there also won't be any ISK provided by them for us to trade our LP items in.
Wormhole income is much "crazier" than FW. Blue loot is bought by NPCs and the income is high enough to farm in dreads and compensate for losses, which happen very occasionally.
FW income is hardly broken. We get as much as people are willing to pay for the stuff we provide. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:55:57 -
[149] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Cearain wrote:
No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing.
Sorry Cearain but you are wrong on this one. We don't push the warzone because we want an extremely strong PVP ecosystem at the moment. There are still enough people in Gal Mil with the know how, as well as pilots with the skills and gumption, to take the warzone. It would totally suck at the moment due to how much neckbearding we would have to do in the AU tz due to Cal AU tz strength, but it would be doable.
I am not sure we disagree about how the game works. We may have a semantic difference. When I talk about "doing faction war" I generally mean fighting for faction war sov. I realize most people do not mean that. Most people think random pvp that has nothing to do with fw sov is still doing faction war - as long as your corp is in faction war. Therefore as long as there is allot of fights around you then fw is not stagnating. IMO faction war is stagnant when no one cares about gaining sov for your side.
When you say lots of people in gallente could fight for sov but don't (for whatever reason) IMO that means the sov system is stagnant.
Thanatos Marathon wrote: Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets.
- Than
I agree here as well. Station lockouts are great for null sec where they don't want people coming to fight in their farms. (they literally refer to a ssytem of "farms and fields" favorably) But it doesn't suit so well in faction war where people often join specifically to pvp. That is why I think the station lockout rule should be eased. E.g., once a system is contested (or contested a certain percent) both sides should be able to dock. This would also mean people have some urgency to fight for a system before it is 90% contested.
In any case what you describe is a clear mechanic where players are forced to either gain sov or promote pvp. Good mechanics would have the 2 go hand in hand and not compete against eachother.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 21:26:09 -
[150] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote: It's funny that you think there aren't goon alts in FW.
They most assuredly do have/had alts in fw and they do/did run the missions. When lp was worth something they paid phenomenal amounts. I have run missions for all but the Caldari.
The lp market continues to collapse but they are still too lucrative. Faction war missions do need a nerf. But they are in the *most* dangerous part of space so I think they should pay more than most other types of pvp. Also unlike ratting in null sec or running high sec missions where you can do that for about as long as you want, you need to dedicate at least a couple of hours straight to running these missions. At least if you really want to run them efficiently.
I know I am one of the few who thinks that fw mission structure is actually excellent. People used to say they want more people to come to low sec but obviously your typical level 4 mission will not work. No one is going to be able to sit in kamela, or eha in a battleship and run damsel in distress unless they have a huge group ready to defend them. This form of mission where you travel through and try to do a relatively quick kill while also trying to dodge pirates is perfect. It gets people who are willing to risk low sec used to traveling through it (and learning not every gate in low sec is camped) and rewards their risks.
There used to be allot of concern about stealth bombers but I really think having them run them is ok. They do not align all that quickly and you can get caught at the gate if someone is quick to warp to the beacon in an interceptor. I have seen the video where Gorski Carr ran a complete set of FW missions in 2 hours. But he ran them at would have been about 3AM central time US. He had absolutely no one interupt any of his missions. Not one person. He could just warp to the beacon every time without ever having to warp close to the mission while cloaked to see if anyone followed. If you run them during the US time zone you should expect to be chased out about 3 times during a run and probably lose about 1 bomber every 40 missions or so. And that assumes you are pretty careful.
If anyone thinks running missions in a stealth bomber is absolutely safe I recommend they look at for example Greg Shumann's killboard for July and August. You will see that if you are good at catching them these missions can provide content. It might be safe if you are AU time zone but any other time you are at risk. It's true the stealth bombers are not that expensive but it does take time and logistics to reship if you want to finish the mission run and the pirates forcing you off course can turn a 2 hour run into a 4 hour run or even a run where you simply won't be able to finish some of the missions.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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