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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1410
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:22:32 -
[181] - Quote
Sero
Your post made me chuckle. I think most of the people who couldn't stand the farm wars left. The notion that throwing npcs at FW farmers will hinder them is about as bad as the idea that throwing seeds at regular farmers will hinder them.
I'm not sure its that people "adapted" as much as the people who don't mind that faction war involves alts in stabbed or empty frigates are all that is left and continuing to join. I used to be more passionate about the game but years of ccp promises remaining unfulfilled - such as better intel tools, and timer rollbacks has made me more detached.
So I am not surprised that most people in faction war are fine with it, or pretty much gave up trying to help. There is no doubt that warfare and tactics is pretty much empty compared to how it was 3 years ago when ccp made some of these promises.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
104
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 02:38:31 -
[182] - Quote
A lot of people come in, eager to learn. They just don't get the help. Eve is s game you have to read into, and that is its greatest hurdle, in every aspect. From the new player experience to FW. As for Null bears joining FW in droves,I doubt very much, for much the same reason high sec mission runners wouldn't. Some People set their own goals and don't like variables, distractions, or the unexpected. There has to be better tools available, as you said, which explain concepts and expand awareness of changing environments. Not things that encourage you to be lazy. I don't like the idea of notifications when someone runs a timer in another constellation. In fact, of I'm not wrong, i think this information is already present in the FW window map grid. The system you hover your pointer over pulses and says, "Something something are currently being captured." Whatever delay it has, I'm not privy to. My own free time has been greatly reduced, but i still fly here and there. I can't wait for the t3d Small's change. I haven't seen that many AF's lately that weren't in a gang. As for timer rollbacks, I'm sure we'll see them soon too. I'm glad that the Null changes have made it glaringly obvious. One thing i would love to see is system upgradeability, where you can CHOOSE the bonus in system when you donate, with higher grade options only available at level V, like cyno inhibitor or the fuel bonus to towers. Heck, maybe even invasive bonuses that increase cost of fuel or station services to non -militia entities. I know we're not the only ones in lowsec, but some of these could be fun and there are many non-FW lowsec systems out there.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
223
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Posted - 2015.10.23 09:09:32 -
[183] - Quote
Silverbackyererse wrote:per wrote:FW shoud be about fighting not farming +1 Missions are a legacy from days when there was no other way to get LP in FW. Just remove them completely CCP! Defensive LP into hubs and not into peoples pockets.
YES! please completely remove missions and buff lp payouts from plexing, or make some other pvp oriented mechanic to make up for it. I don't understand why anyone wants to keep missions in any shape or form, it brings all the parasites into the warzone like the one in this thread boasting about how he farms fw lp without contributing anything to the militia.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1410
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Posted - 2015.10.23 13:57:15 -
[184] - Quote
I do think fw missions need to be nerfed relative to plexing - as I posted. But that will not fix faction war.
More lp here and less there will not change the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem with faction war is this:
You will gain more sov for your militia if you get 4 alts rabbit plexing than you will if you go out with a pvp ship and fight for plexes.
As long as such boring gameplay is how you win sov then the sov game will remain broken. It doesn't matter if your add rewards to plexing or take them away. Nor does it matter what tier system you have, cashout, or current. As long as the bolded statement remains true fw sov will be broken.
CCP knows how to fix the above and they even said they would do it. But that was about 3 years ago and they never followed through. At the last csm meeting they never even mentioned either fix. 1) timer rollbacks and 2) better intel tools. In particular real time intel about where plexes are being run so that organized pvpers can respond before the plex is captured.
If we had real time intel about where plexes were being run then the guy with 4 rabbit plexing accounts would quickly find his alts are getting killed or chased out before he can finish a plex. If he is killed or constantly chased out then he would lose his time spent. It would no longer be as cost effective as simply fitting your ship as best you can for pvp and choosing to stay and fight. The bolded statement would no longer be true and faction war would be fixed.
It wouldn't take any lp, isk to do it. It would just be a matter of those 2 changes and fighting for faction war sov would be a fun and challenging game.
This has been the case for years, and for years I see new faces saying we just need this bit of candy or we need to take away this bit of candy. (Yes I say that too because some changes would be better, but I want to make it clear here, such changes won't actually fix the root of the problem.) I hear people ask for more benefits and consequences. But tying benefits and conseqences to a boring mechanic will never fix the ultimate problem and really only makes it worse.
CCP has given fw so much treasure the weight of it crushed all of the lp stores. All of them, including those that aren't even fw lp stores! Yet the sov game is still broken. I know this will fall on deaf ears. More players will say we need to have this or that candy. And CCP will continue to tweak the candy like they have been for years. But at base fw will remain broken.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1547
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:38:30 -
[185] - Quote
I really do struggle to grasp what you think is so broken about FW. One day its boosts, next day its that you think people should be always on a grand campaign to take all their adversaries space, next day its because there might be a farmer running a plex in a system no one cares about that only free intel can fix.
One more time, for the sake of futility. Boosts are in a good place in the gang/fleet meta. Occupancy war is the driver not the content. Giving people free intel will not suddenly make them interested in going to a back end system to watch a farmer safe up and cloak.
Better fix to farmers, which really is the only slight problem at the moment, would be to force them into pvp fits. The subtlest way to do this would be to simply not allow stabbed or cloak capable ships to run a timer. They can still enter a plex but the button will ignore them. This would mean multi boxing farmers would have to pay a lot more attention or lose a lot more ships. People might even roam around back-end systems if they are gonna get a cheesy low sp kill mail that they dont have to fit 2/3 scrams for.
As for making it fun to fight for FW occupancy, That really is a personal choice that you can make right now. I can undock and go plex uuna for a pretty boring time. Or i can undock and go plex hasmijaala / okkamon / kehjari / rakapas and have a fight within a minute or two of turning up.
if you are under the impression that you can make people care as much about a non-station dead end system as they do for their home-base, not only are you mistaken, but nothing you have never made a suggestion that would make that happen.
One final note, The LP store ecosystem was crusted by inferno which you love so much. Since that was fixed the LP stores quickly recovered and are now in a place resembling pre-inferno status-quo. Fw dudes, selling a narrow group of mods and ships, and level 5 mission runners cashing out implants. |
per
Terpene Conglomerate
79
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:01:34 -
[186] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Boosts are in a good place in the gang/fleet meta
i dont even know what to say to this ... in my eyes ogbs are quite broken and if you think they are completely ok, then we have nothing to talk about
another thing, those changes for fw mentioned in csm minutes ... anyone know when they will be implemented? not like they are something big but atleast something |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1419
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:45:51 -
[187] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:I really do struggle to grasp what you think is so broken about FW.
I put it in bold and underlined it. Again this is what is broken with faction war: You will gain more sov for your militia if you get 4 alts rabbit plexing than you will if you go out with a pvp ship and fight for plexes.
I really think the more people think about that, the more they will understand the root of the problem.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: One day its boosts, ...
Better fix to farmers, which really is the only slight problem at the moment, would be to force them into pvp fits. The subtlest way to do this would be to simply not allow stabbed or cloak capable ships to run a timer.
Removing OGB would help the whole game including fw. But ogb are not why faction war in particular has always been broken.
Stabs really are not necessary to rabbit plex. Neither is a cloak. Even if CCP did those changes the bold and underlined statement would remain true. So faction war would still be broken.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Not to say there are not other things that can be improved on in FW. But constantly saying that every slight or non-problem 'BREAKS' FW seems like angsty alarmism and is simply embarrassing to read.
I donGÇÖt say that. There is a difference between saying something like nerfing fw mission pay would improve faction war, and saying the fw mission pay GÇ£breaksGÇ¥ faction war.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:As for making it fun to fight for FW occupancy, That really is a personal choice that you can make right now. I can undock and go plex uuna for a pretty boring time. Or i can undock and go plex hasmijaala / okkamon / kehjari / rakapas and have a fight within a minute or two of turning up.
Sure you can go get some fights in plexes. I used to enjoy that, and it was good fun. But if you decide you want to do pvp with random dudes around a plex you will not be gaining fw sov nearly as much as the guy with 4 alts rabbit plexing. So ultimately pvpers stop caring about sov. And that is why the sov system is stagnant and broken.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: if you are under the impression that you can make people care as much about a non-station dead end system as they do for their home-base, not only are you mistaken, but nothing you have never made a suggestion that would make that happen.
If a game is fun and challenging then more people will care about being good at it. If a game is a boring grind then fewer people will care about it. That is all I am saying. Maybe you disagree.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1548
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Posted - 2015.10.23 17:47:36 -
[188] - Quote
Very minor changes to plexes, as in, no stabs and cloaks able to run buttons will fix farming. Your derogatory term 'rabbit' plexers is unwieldy. It seems you just use that to describe behavior you dont like.
if an atron runs away from a daredevil, does that make him a rabbit plexer? If a condor runs away from a crapacal, does that make it a rabit plexer. If someone runs 4 accounts to plex, does that make him a rabbit plexer if his alts sometimes fight if he things they have a chance. If someone has 4 alts who dont fight but his main hangs around to defend them, are they rabbit plexers? My alts have 2 stabs fitted but i still sometimes fight and sometimes win, are they rabbit plexers?
'Rabbit' plexers is a useless term you use in an angsty way to be derogatory to other players choices. The global problem is only stabs and cloaks. Once stabbed and cloaky ships cannot run buttons, then they are much more vulnerable and then it comes down to your ability to catch them, which is half the fun.
OGB are great at the gang fleet level, specially if they are off grid. It gives a potential advantage to the side that is willing to try and disrupt the hostile fleets boosts. This creates a different and very important role for anyone interested in probing (assuming boosts get agro and cant sit on gates, but even then forcing them out of system can be an advantage). |
per
Terpene Conglomerate
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 18:22:55 -
[189] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Per: It is interesting that those FW changes are not on the roadmap ccp put out.
thats the reason im asking, if someone possibly knows something more (i wasnt able to find anything) personaly i hope those changes will be put in in next big expansion (the one with citadels etc) but my inner voice telling me i definitely shouldnt be so optimistic because - csm minutes were to me like: "yeah we will do this in some future... maybe", but i already heard that somewhere someday in the distant past :)
would be nice if some csm or ccp could insert some more info here
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Very minor changes to plexes, as in, no stabs and cloaks able to run buttons will fix farming. Your derogatory term 'rabbit' plexers is unwieldy. It seems you just use that to describe behavior you dont like.
if an atron runs away from a daredevil, does that make him a rabbit plexer? If a condor runs away from a crapacal, does that make it a rabit plexer. If someone runs 4 accounts to plex, does that make him a rabbit plexer if his alts sometimes fight if he things they have a chance. If someone has 4 alts who dont fight but his main hangs around to defend them, are they rabbit plexers? My alts have 2 stabs fitted but i still sometimes fight and sometimes win, are they rabbit plexers?
'Rabbit' plexers is a useless term you use in an angsty way to be derogatory to other players choices. The global problem is only stabs and cloaks. Once stabbed and cloaky ships cannot run buttons, then they are much more vulnerable and then it comes down to your ability to catch them, which is half the fun. .
cloaks are already disabled in plexes(no ability to cloak in plex range) and ppl that used cloaks for catching farmers cant do that now - was llike neutral change to fw i agree on the stabs problem, ships with them just shouldnt be able to run the timer - but again its treating the symptoms not the problems and i much rather see something like timer rollbacks instead of some artificial restrictions on fitting of your ships
btw condor usually doesnt have to run from caracals in novice plexes |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1548
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 18:31:10 -
[190] - Quote
Thats why my idea is better. Cloaks and stabs should be allowed inside a plex. But they simply should not effect the button.
In this scenario you can still catch he farmer with no worry that they are going to be stabbed. |
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1419
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:08:47 -
[191] - Quote
"Rabbit plexing" means people who run plexes with the intent to run if anyone comes or at least have no intent on fighting. I don't mean it derogatory. In fact as I said it is the best way to gain sov in faction war. When I was interested in winning sov I did it myself. Unlike you I do not blame players for playing the game according to the mechanics. I blame ccp for designing the game in a way that optimizes boring play.
Sure some people might think rabbit plexing 4 alts is great fun. They may think I am wrong that fw would be better if it was not the optimal way to win sov. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I however am fairly convinced *more* people would agree with me. Namely if the bolded and underlined statement was false then faction war would be better. What do you think? Would fw be better if ccp made it so the bolded and underlined statement were no longer true?
I use the term "rabbit plexer" as opposed to "farmer." "Farmer" implies that people are doing plexing for lp or isk gain. We had rabbit plexing before lp payouts. I don't think most plexers who d-plex relatively uncontested systems in empty frigates are "farmers" (because I tend to doubt they do it for the lp) but I would call them rabbits.
Stopping any sort of pay for plexing would end "farming" but it wouldn't end "rabbit plexing." And so fw sov would still be broken.
You can put your ship pretty far away from the warp in so even if you did not have local, dscan, or stabs you would still likely get away before you were pointed. Keep in mind that lots of times people with stabbed ships purposely let you target them so you can see its pretty futile to keep chasing them. If they could not fit stabs they would just warp off before you could get a point.
As for what is and is not "rabbit plexing" there may be some gray areas. Where you want to draw the line about when someone fits the definition of a "rabbit plexer" or a "farmer" is a metaphysical question I will not claim to resolve.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1548
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:25:28 -
[192] - Quote
Everyone has the idea of running if something comes they dont want to fight. Some peoples envelopes are larger than others. Therefor your term lacks any meaningful definition. |
Arla Sarain
689
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:48:48 -
[193] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Everyone has the idea of running if something comes they dont want to fight. Some peoples envelopes are larger than others. Therefor your term lacks any meaningful definition. But wouldn't it be great if plex mechanics encouraged people to try and surpass their perceived narrow envelopes...? As opposed to the mechanics now that reward never committing to defending a plex and actually do the opposite - reward drawing out your aggressors patience and weaponizing his frustration.
Your statement is true for the occasion when one is met with an obviously higher class/performance ship. But people still run away from Probes and Rifters and whatnot. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1548
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:27:00 -
[194] - Quote
Well, from my perspective. Most people i come across are rabbit plexers, or more accurately, evasion farmers.
Its a matter of perspective. Its interesting to see how many farmers, who would run away from almost anything, will go toe-to-toe with one of my equally young and low SP alt.
You also just fell into the same trap cerain often does. Points out a problem and offers no solution. Simply incanting things like 'introduce a mechanic' or 'ccp should fix it' is no help. You cannot force people to fight. At least you didnt go full cerain, and offer a solution that barely has any connection to the problem he proposes it to fix.
Someone suggested removing d-plex LP. But that will be a boon for the farmers since it will resurrect the pendulum and flip flop occupancy of the past. many systems will just be written off as they were in the past since you know if you lose them today, they will just be back in your possession in 4 days time even if you dont lift a finger to go there.
Basically, farming is already easy to fix. You just have to be as interested in defending the system as they are in farming it. If you are not interested in the system, does it really matter if they are evasion farmers or not? since if you are not there you would not know either way.
Removing stabs from the repertoire of farmers simply gives pvpers the option to catch these guys without having to fit multiple scrams. Ceraind says it wont help because the evasion farmers will just warp away. I say, if they are paying enough attention to see you coming then they are entitled to warp away from something they dont like, just like everyone else. |
Arla Sarain
691
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:59:48 -
[195] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You also just fell into the same trap cerain often does. Points out a problem and offers no solution. It's not a trap. We are not game designers. The point of this thread is to discuss problems.
If I had to take a shot in the dark, I'd add a timer for "release of commitment" - if you don't come back to the plex after a certain time, you essentially demonstrate that you have no interest of committing to defending and capturing it. Once this runs out, any previous progress is lost. To prevent people from dipping into a plex and warping out to reset it, there is another timer that has to be completed to demonstrate interest. This should be relatively short, but also long enough that a stabbed ship could be killed (since these are the ships that will be the main perpetrators of "dipping", having the privilege of warping out if they have enough stabs).
It's not ideal.
Cons: 1) There are now several timers. Not only is there a strain on the game to keep track of these timers, they have to be released with supplementary QoL changes that somehow display these timers to each militia. I suppose the assets from the recent WH polarization timers could work, but that only tackles half of the problem.
2) Genuine system pushes could be adversely affected - FW folk are keen on keeping track of the timers in order to strategize re-shipping and plex contesting. I suppose this system would be milder than simply having each separate timer for each Militia. The scenarios I am considering are: [A] POS reshipping, in which case you are likely in the system, you get a certain amount of time to reship before the progress is lost, and if you can't seem to get your **** together, you likely wouldn't get the plex anyway, timer or no timer (although this is a huge leap in logic). [B] Station reship in a nearby or close system - the time this takes would likely not just envelope the "recommitment timer" but also the entire plex capture timer anyway (again a large leap, but it's difficult to estimate without giving a number for the timer), in which case you may consider an encounter loss as a loss of plex anyway, and instead prepare to ship for the next site.
Pros: 1) Rolling back timers is less painful, since you don't need to complete the plex to discourage the farmer or the person with an evasion agenda, you just need to wait long enough to wipe the progress entirely. Best applied when their timer is almost complete for maximum salt.
2) Bunny plexing is harder within a single system for the same reason as above. It would be difficult to make any progress without defeating your aggressor and discouraging him from entering. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1420
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:14:43 -
[196] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
You also just fell into the same trap cerain often does. Points out a problem and offers no solution. Simply incanting things like 'introduce a mechanic' or 'ccp should fix it' is no help. .
I am sure everyone who read the thread knows I very clearly stated what I think will solve the problem. If any non-trolls think that is not the case I will try to help them understand.
Lots of people can agree there is a problem, without agreeing to any particular solution. At least they agree with the first step of the logic - that there is a problem.
They might also disagree with your claim that what we mean by "rabbit plexer" or "farmer" is so vague that it is meaningless. There might be some gray area at the fringes of the term but it is clear enough for many people who have tried to pvp in fw space to understand what we mean. You just try to derail every topic you can.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
104
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Posted - 2015.10.23 21:43:49 -
[197] - Quote
The opposing point of views are helpful. I've come to terms that I will be quite alright if missions were removed, so long as there is a second LP source available, besides kills (unless they find a way to buff them back up without obvious exploits). Dual timers still sound great to me. Better than waiting around through a bloated timer that would still be present with the roll backs. It will also encourage some to fight over a plex that has a few seconds to go on your end. Either way,I would still like to see a small benefit to dplexing low contested systems. The ihub injection of the lost LP would be awesome. It would give us a reason to clear out the damn things.
A bonus to tier based on total VP or kill stats would be a tremendous tradeoff were missions removed. Because, let's face it. Who would ever touch tier 5 again without missions?
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
104
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Posted - 2015.10.24 20:52:17 -
[198] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
They might also disagree with your claim that what we mean by "rabbit plexer" or "farmer" is so vague that it is meaningless. There might be some gray area at the fringes of the term but it is clear enough for many people who have tried to pvp in fw space to understand what we mean. You just try to derail every topic you can.
I gotta say, to this guy's credit, that being critical of how the term 'rabbit' is used to imply skittish behavior, while accepting the very skewered definition of 'farmer' as applied to ... repetitious acts for the accumulation of non-physical objects within a virtual environment in exchange for real currency(?), is pretty comical. I don't think even a fraction of the persons you would label as farmer would qualify as what would generally be considered a 'farmer' by MMO standards. Grind would even be more suitable, except that the idiom of Eve terminology is accustomed to a certain set of words.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Madrax573
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
10
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Posted - 2015.10.26 02:17:20 -
[199] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Everyone has the idea of running if something comes they dont want to fight. Some peoples envelopes are larger than others. Therefor your term lacks any meaningful definition. But wouldn't it be great if plex mechanics encouraged people to try and surpass their perceived narrow envelopes...? As opposed to the mechanics now that reward never committing to defending a plex and actually do the opposite - reward drawing out your aggressors patience and weaponizing his frustration. Your statement is true for the occasion when one is met with an obviously higher class/performance ship. But people still run away from Probes and Rifters and whatnot.
There is now way to 'encourage' people to stay and fight, especially outside of their perceived engagement envelope, simple as that.
It seems that the most people who complain about the farmers just want to be able to force people to fight and not give them a choice about weather they can engage or not.
Despite his ideas about OGB Crosi is pretty much spot on about where FW is at the moment. Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. Farmers in FW are just like farmers in mission, WH, ded's etc doing something pretty inane to acquire isk. And TBH it's better for eve in general if it's acquired by trading farmed LP than bounty payout for rats as it doesn't actually inject isk into the game world. And that the real reason CCP won't change it much from what it is like now. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
309
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 04:04:18 -
[200] - Quote
Madrax573 wrote:
Despite his ideas about OGB Crosi is pretty much spot on about where FW is at the moment. Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. Farmers in FW are just like farmers in mission, WH, ded's etc doing something pretty inane to acquire isk. And TBH it's better for eve in general if it's acquired by trading farmed LP than bounty payout for rats as it doesn't actually inject isk into the game world. And that the real reason CCP won't change it much from what it is like now.
While home systems are safe from farmers, we do still have to deplex them every morning. Somebody's isk machine causes us to have to spend hours deplexing our home systems without pvp, and for much smaller rewards than the farmers got.
Plexing is supposed to be dangerous, that's why the payouts are so good. The farmers risk almost nothing, just an insured frigate that's stabbed and fitted with cheap modules.
The farmers DO contribute to warzone control. A bunch of stabbed ships plexing everywhere makes it hard for the other side to make a comeback.
They also devalue the "real" players' LP. We'd get more isk for the the items in our LP store if the market weren't flooded by the farmers.
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
107
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Posted - 2015.10.26 04:36:35 -
[201] - Quote
Madrax573 wrote: And TBH it's better for eve in general if it's acquired by trading farmed LP than bounty payout for rats as it doesn't actually inject isk into the game world. And that the real reason CCP won't change it much from what it is like now.
Those reasons may be true, but to say that farmers don't impact the war zone because they never flipped a system is like saying the deep fryer don't help you eat your fries. They were instrumental, along with many focused alts, during the second victory in keeping low priority systems low contested as the last three were flipped. Players with alts like Crosi played a huge part, bringing systems down almost single-handedly (if all those alt arms could still be considered one body). Villore Accords had consistent gate camps. While OMS and Heyd turned,I did my best to keep the Mantenault/Alamel Russians at bay, who would run those systems up every night. I cannot speak enough about the disappointment in not getting that 2nd medal, or worst, the first for many who sunk days of effort for just a pat on the back. Also, not seeing how it affects one to sell a VNI for 60 instead of nearly 80, is blindfolded logic. It can be just as much a hit to moral that is further compounded after heavy, repeated, losses. These things appear to be separate in themselves, yet share a relationship in which pvp'ers are the bastard child. It's a QoL change that should happen, more for the sake of the southern war zone then our own, which has unique handicaps that prevent snowballing.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1550
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Posted - 2015.10.26 04:51:26 -
[202] - Quote
if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem?
All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 05:04:03 -
[203] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem?
All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower.
I guess you can say we take a hit to our income by exploiting the farmers as a balance of power or a crushing added momentum. To use them like a drone horde, has been both funny and horrific. My major concern is missions, the impact of which can only be seen at it's nosebleed point in the Min/Amarr stage. But it's hard to get the fat kids to give up the candy, if even for their own good.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
309
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Posted - 2015.10.26 05:12:42 -
[204] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem?
All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower.
If you're in the system they are.
If you cover every plex.
Dock up and take a break, they come back. You chase them out. They come back. Manage to kill them and they'll be back in a stabbed ship and plexing again in minutes.
Go for a roam? For every minute you're gone, that's another minute you have to deplex when you get back.
They determine warzone control. The only thing the rest of their militia has to do is show up and siege ihubs to hit higher tiers, which increases the number of farmers.
Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers.
That's not going to happen, and worthless farmers gonna farm.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1550
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Posted - 2015.10.26 05:34:06 -
[205] - Quote
Why do you think that a system should be safe if you are not there? Also, what difference would it make if its an evasion farmer or an actual pvper if you are not there? |
Madrax573
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
10
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Posted - 2015.10.26 05:45:24 -
[206] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem?
All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower. If you're in the system they are. If you cover every plex. Dock up and take a break, they come back. You chase them out. They come back. Manage to kill them and they'll be back in a stabbed ship and plexing again in minutes. Go for a roam? For every minute you're gone, that's another minute you have to deplex when you get back. They determine warzone control. The only thing the rest of their militia has to do is show up and siege ihubs to hit higher tiers, which increases the number of farmers. Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers. That's not going to happen, and worthless farmers gonna farm.
Bolded the important part. Nothing will ever change this in eve.
Put Simply FW farming is an ISK sink in Eve and something that eve sorely needs TBH as isk is now easier than ever to accumulate.
Farmers may have been 'influential' in campaigns but farmers by definition don't engage in the conflict. Like Crosi mentions if Alts are used strategically then are they 'farmers' or tools of war?
Lets face it despite the fact that there seems to be a bigger number of whiners in EVE nowadays FW is probably the best version that it ever has been. It can be easily accessed by low sp players able to fund their pvp easily and it can be used by vets to get more of an elite pvp experience seeing as the skill lvl of the pvper's in FW is generally the highest in game IMO. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
23
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Posted - 2015.10.26 11:16:45 -
[207] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before.
450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? I have a good RL income but THX for the example/insult. But if you have ever been with russians, romanians or africans in a corp you get a bad conscience when you realise that europeans and us boys are doing pay2win with plex. On the other side the most east europeans would not be able to play without plex. Well everyone can do what he likes in this game. Back on topic: Well t3ds get banned from smalls but are not good enough for mediums so what to do with em?
wasn't meant as an insult, more just a joke about my surprise @ 450mil / hr
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1423
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Posted - 2015.10.26 15:38:38 -
[208] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote: Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers.
That's not going to happen....
If we had rollbacks and real time intel on where plexes were being hit, 7-10 active organized pvpers could cover the entire amarr warzone. Each pvper could cover a section and they could effectively make sure most plexes were not captured without a fight. It would not be long before rabbit plexing was so inefficient, it would disappear. Faction war sov would finally be fixed.
Of course both militias would have more than that number covering the warzone and the pvp per plex would skyrocket.
Madrax573 wrote: There is now way to 'encourage' people to stay and fight, especially outside of their perceived engagement envelope, simple as that.
What engagement envelope do people who fly empty frigates have? What about those who fit stabs? You see people fit their ship the most effective way they can, for what they want to accomplish. If they want to win sov in null sec they do not fit stabs or fly empty ships. If they want to win sov in faction war they do. Why? Because of ccp's design decisions.
CCP can and should make the mechanics in faction war such that people who plex expect they will need to pvp in order to gain space. That is what the 2 changes they promised, would do. But they still have not implemented them.
Madrax573 wrote: Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. .
You have a very null sec mindset. In null sec this sort of works because it is entirely player based so the people who fight for a small bit of space donGÇÖt need to share it with the rest of new eden. Faction war will never be that way. Anyone can join the factions and reap the rewards that a small number of players create. That is why there really isnGÇÖt much gain to holding your own system/constellation in faction war. Yes you can dock. Big deal leave faction war and you can dock there too. If they gave faction war players some big advantages like anomalies in their upgraded systems like null sec guess what? 1) pirates could sit and dock in those systems and kill the ratters.
Well then lets say ccp gave faction war some faction war only systems where only they could dock. I still donGÇÖt think people would be very safe in low sec especially if they do the upcoming 4 way war. But lets assume it is as safe as null sec. People would just put alts in that faction farm the anomalies that others earned. Unlike null sec sov players can't purge parasites out of faction war. Once you understand these inherent limitations you will see that faction war needs to go in a different direction.
Applying the null sec view of GÇ£let me keep my little bit of spaceGÇ¥ is doomed when applied to faction war. CCP needs to understand these limitations. But faction war is not just limited due to this. Since the consequences in fw are not as large as losing space in null, CCP can make it so that faction war people can win sov much easier and quicker than what they need to do in null sec. They can make winning sov much more fun and involve much less drudgery. They could make it so the entire front is won by the side that is best at pvp of a variety of types. That is why Faction war has so much promise. Sadly they still have a design where the side that that fields the most rabbit plexers wins the most space. IMO that is drudgery.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
313
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Posted - 2015.10.26 17:10:44 -
[209] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Why do you think that a system should be safe if you are not there? Also, what difference would it make if its an evasion farmer or an actual pvper if you are not there?
How many pvpers are going to bother trying to catch a stabbed farmer? Most are worried about killboard stats, and a 250,000 isk kill isn't worth much.
If you're roaming you dont bother going after them because you need two scrams.
If it's a pvper at least the guy is adding content. You can ship down to something you're pretty sure he'll fight and you'll both get to have some fun.
The farmers are practically a non-entitiy when it comes to content. All they contribute is warzone control (which is good and bad for everyone) and devaluing everybody else's LP.
In a few minutes a new character can be doing small and/or novice plexes, in a ship that costs practically nothing, while making more isk per hour than high/low level 4 missions or lower class WHs while being semi-afk.
Is it any wonder why so many non-alt characters left militia? They get all the income without having to bleed for it. Now we're just a handful of pilots and an army of plexing alts.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
313
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Posted - 2015.10.26 17:15:34 -
[210] - Quote
Madrax573 wrote:
Bolded the important part. Nothing will ever change this in eve.
Put Simply FW farming is an ISK sink in Eve and something that eve sorely needs TBH as isk is now easier than ever to accumulate.
Farmers may have been 'influential' in campaigns but farmers by definition don't engage in the conflict. Like Crosi mentions if Alts are used strategically then are they 'farmers' or tools of war?
Lets face it despite the fact that there seems to be a bigger number of whiners in EVE nowadays FW is probably the best version that it ever has been. It can be easily accessed by low sp players able to fund their pvp easily and it can be used by vets to get more of an elite pvp experience seeing as the skill lvl of the pvper's in FW is generally the highest in game IMO.
Home systems are mostly safe from farmers, but that doesn't mean that farmers don't have an effect on home systems. Once one side has most of the systems, the active pvpers have fewer places to go to find the fights they're looking for. When it's just the home systems things get dicey.
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