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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1080
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Posted - 2015.05.19 16:52:32 -
[1] - Quote
Highslot utility mod, prevents a cyno from being lit and/or deactivates an active cyno. Perhaps just "jams" the cyno so that it still has to cycle the full duration but becomes unusable.
Would allow some counterplay to known hotdroppers, forcing them to be more careful in bait ships and hopefully encouraging less one-sided conflict where people are more willing to fight. Probably wouldn't have much effect on large scale capital ops where multiple backup cynos are already used.
Clearly there would be many repercussions - some good, some bad. Some depend on your point of view.
Discuss.
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
391
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Posted - 2015.05.19 17:02:19 -
[2] - Quote
You realise the whole i undock i get dropped on thing died with the jump changes? |
Christopher Mabata
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
321
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Posted - 2015.05.19 17:14:30 -
[3] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Highslot utility mod, prevents a cyno from being lit and/or deactivates an active cyno. Perhaps just "jams" the cyno so that it still has to cycle the full duration but becomes unusable.
Would allow some counterplay to known hotdroppers, forcing them to be more careful in bait ships and hopefully encouraging less one-sided conflict where people are more willing to fight. Probably wouldn't have much effect on large scale capital ops where multiple backup cynos are already used.
Clearly there would be many repercussions - some good, some bad. Some depend on your point of view.
Discuss.
We already got jump changes and the mobile anti cyno structure, people just never seem to think its enough, you have plenty of tools to avoid getting dropped on use those rather than asking CCP for more ways to protect your assets than are even needed
#USA #PODSQUAD #Waitthisisn'ttwitterthenewlookconfusedme
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1080
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Posted - 2015.05.19 17:44:36 -
[4] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:You realise the whole i undock i get dropped on thing died with the jump changes? I disagree. Blackops in particular are still very popular in many regions of lowsec. I have at least 10 alts on my watchlist whose sole purpose is to light cynos and I see them daily.
Christopher Mabata wrote:We already got jump changes and the mobile anti cyno structure, people just never seem to think its enough In my opinion, cyno inhibitor modules are useful for protecting your own capitals during structure bashes and the like, but the online time is prohibitive for other uses. If you see an Arazu in system that you know is a hot drop alt, you can't expect to anchor the thing and get it to engage you. Essentially, the cyno is guaranteed to work because they pick the engagement.
If it wasn't guaranteed though, people would have to find more creative ways to get fights or bring more support to get control over their cyno. I think it would create a more interesting dynamic than the current meta. Perhaps you disagree.
Christopher Mabata wrote:you have plenty of tools to avoid getting dropped on use those rather than asking CCP for more ways to protect your assets than are even needed I'm not asking for anything. I just have an idea which I believe fills a different use niche than the cyno inhibitor and I'm curious what other people think. Thank you for your opinion.
I'm also not interested in "avoiding" getting dropped or "protecting" my assets. That's easy. Dock up. Use cyno inhibs to protect your fleets and structures. What I'm considering is a way to empower smaller groups to engage against known hot droppers. This would bring more conflict (a good thing!) and be less one-sided, giving some of the cards back to the people actually in system (also a good thing in my opinion).
I've been on both sides of this many times. Dropping everything in sight leads to very scarce targets and very bored players. We are our own worst enemy in that regard. We just need some more reasons to pause and think about taking the easy way out before we light up.
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joecuster
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
48
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Posted - 2015.05.19 18:09:01 -
[5] - Quote
lol cyno inhib to pricey for bads |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1220
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Posted - 2015.05.19 18:20:02 -
[6] - Quote
joecuster wrote:lol cyno inhib to pricey for bads
Totally stops the blops ships mentioned too, right?
PS: it doesn't. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
719
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Posted - 2015.05.19 19:52:55 -
[7] - Quote
afkalt wrote:joecuster wrote:lol cyno inhib to pricey for bads Totally stops the blops ships mentioned too, right? PS: it doesn't. And that is awesome.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
296
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Posted - 2015.05.19 20:12:44 -
[8] - Quote
The mobile inhibitor actually does it's job really well and sets up some interesting tactics while using them. It is sufficient and a really good addition to the game.
Covert cynos are another beast entirely. You have so many options to deal with this... A)Jam the tackle ship that is initiating the drop. B)Counter drop. People like big shiny killmails, it shouldnt be too hard to set up a good counter drop. One good welp of their BLOPS fleet and they will probably leave you alone. C)Kite. Given that almost all the 'good' ships in the meta are so fast and so small, dropping them is actually tricky. D)Get a fleet and fight your local pirates. Bored groups are the ones that resort to excessively Cyno based gameplay. It's not that they don't want a fight, it's that they only way they can get one is by baiting.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Alexis Nightwish
195
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Posted - 2015.05.19 20:55:26 -
[9] - Quote
The cyno mechanics are terrible since forever and always.
The OP's idea would probably need more fleshing out, but as a concept I like it. If this or something similar were in game, roams in Low and Null would be a lot more fun. I'm totally on board with anything that let's me **** with the "I Win!" button. Especially now that ratting carriers in null are all required to have a depot out and a cyno in hold so if jumped they can summon the whole constellation right on top of them instantaneously.
Cyno inhibs are great as a preventative, defensive action in a set place, but are totally worthless for roams. If there's even a chance of winning we'll take the fight, but what's the point of fighting someone who just has 50 dudes 5ly away waiting next to a Titan that's 1cm out of its POS so they can get some of that EZKB Green. Yes, I did just make that term up.
Whether you die or escape at that point it doesn't matter because a cyno going up signals the end of the fun.
+1 to cyno fuckery
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1081
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Posted - 2015.05.19 21:19:48 -
[10] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:The mobile inhibitor actually does it's job really well and sets up some interesting tactics while using them. It is sufficient and a really good addition to the game. I agree it was a good addition.
Vic Jefferson wrote: Covert cynos are another beast entirely. You have so many options to deal with this... A)Jam the tackle ship that is initiating the drop. B)Counter drop. People like big shiny killmails, it shouldnt be too hard to set up a good counter drop. One good welp of their BLOPS fleet and they will probably leave you alone. C)Kite. Given that almost all the 'good' ships in the meta are so fast and so small, dropping them is actually tricky. D)Get a fleet and fight your local pirates. Bored groups are the ones that resort to excessively Cyno based gameplay. It's not that they don't want a fight, it's that they only way they can get one is by baiting.
A and C are valid suggestions.
B) I don't want them to leave me alone. I want more conflict, not less. This just leads to a standoff where neither group wants to do anything but drop on easy victims, because no one wants to actually risk their black ops (why would you? they are flimsy).
D) I am the local pirate.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2197
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Posted - 2015.05.19 21:20:21 -
[11] - Quote
Current Inhibitors only work if you are a static fleet. If you are a roaming fleet they are vastly to expensive to drop on every single gate and location you land on. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
296
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Posted - 2015.05.19 21:35:41 -
[12] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Current Inhibitors only work if you are a static fleet. If you are a roaming fleet they are vastly to expensive to drop on every single gate and location you land on.
I'm not sure its that cut and dry. I had a humorous situation unfold where we were defending a poco, and the attacking fleet was scouted with no logi; they intend to drop triage. We scrambled a cyno inhibitor up as fast up as possible, and had it anchored by the time they landed in our bubble. Their scouts did not evidently think it worthy of the FC's attention, or didn't notice it. Suffice to say the fight went rather well for us.
They aren't supposed to HARD counter caps, or drops. If you are truly a roaming fleet, just don't let the bait scram you, and you live to fight another day, and they get fatigued for no kills. As cancerous as the current speed/drone/LML meta is, it does a fair bit to dissuade drops.
If you don't think you can kill a carrier before his friends show up, bring more bombers. Or hide the cyno inhibs in the anoms before hand. Think creatively.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
196
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Posted - 2015.05.19 21:46:09 -
[13] - Quote
Cynos are more boring than mining.
Click a button and wait. At least you can move about while mining. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
965
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Posted - 2015.05.20 02:02:52 -
[14] - Quote
There are already many high slot modules that can shut down an active cyno. They are called turrets and missile launchers. Rumor has it that drones, bombs, and smartbombs are also capable of shutting down a cyno.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
395
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Posted - 2015.05.20 07:27:54 -
[15] - Quote
I meant it like this...
I once undocked my carrier to show it to a new bro, (irl buddy of mine no intelligence leaks there) and within 1 minute i had a ******* Pandemic legion ganksquad on my undocked carrier... It was fairly silly... Docked back up and felt like a big boy once the shakes stopped... |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
797
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Posted - 2015.05.20 07:41:17 -
[16] - Quote
When a cyno goes up either apply DPS or GTFO, one or the other usually works.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1092
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Posted - 2015.05.20 11:11:07 -
[17] - Quote
well for once a great well thought out idea with no holes in it
this would change so much no longer would people have to fear constantly being dropped on
isn't it great we play in a game with no alts so that this would actually fix a problem and not just force people to sub another acc to be competitive in an area of the game?
seriously this mod gets added to the game all i do is make a few more cyno alts and train them with damps.
so what changes
1. people make more alts
2. Arazue becomes even more so the primary recon for lighting cov cynos
3. i have a few back up cynos in large fleets to ensure everyone i need to have drop drops
what stays the same
1. you are still going to be at just as much risk of being dropped on
2. even if i only bring in one cyno ship i will be able to bridge in most of my fleet as they will know when the cyno is going to be light and you need to react to a ship d-cloaking
3 .people who do not use jump drives complain that they are to strong and want one more nerf
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
967
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Posted - 2015.05.20 11:46:49 -
[18] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:I meant it like this...
I once undocked my carrier to show it to a new bro, (irl buddy of mine no intelligence leaks there) and within 1 minute i had a ******* Pandemic legion ganksquad on my undocked carrier... It was fairly silly... Docked back up and felt like a big boy once the shakes stopped...
You undocked a Carrier without paying attention to local and you think this is a problem with game mechanics?
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
130
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Posted - 2015.05.20 11:52:27 -
[19] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Perhaps just "jams" the cyno so that it still has to cycle the full duration but becomes unusable.
No neeed for a special item here. Any ship with a gun can do this and if you use a small blaster ship a cyno alt is dead within seconds after landing on it.
No idea why cynos cause so much pain to you guys. I normally have a problem to keep the alive for at least 10 seconds after lighting them and typiclally 12 secos after firing it the cyno is bubbled and dead.
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1082
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Posted - 2015.05.20 13:24:56 -
[20] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:No neeed for a special item here. Any ship with a gun can do this and if you use a small blaster ship a cyno alt is dead within seconds after landing on it. I've seen this argument twice now. You realize no one uses an Ibis to hot drop right? I'm not talking about throw-away cynos on station to move your carrier, I'm talking about brick-tanked hot drop ships.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:1. you are still going to be at just as much risk of being dropped on
2. even if i only bring in one cyno ship i will be able to bridge in most of my fleet as they will know when the cyno is going to be light and you need to react to a ship d-cloaking
3 .people who do not use jump drives complain that they are to strong and want one more nerf This idea isn't meant to hard counter blops or capital drops. I consider 1) and 2) a good thing. This idea is not supposed to hard counter hot drops, just to provide one more factor to make it more risky. That's why I made it a targeted high slot (utility highs are somewhat rare comparatively), and not area of effect. If you really want to drop you shouldn't be completely prevented by a single module (come to think of it falcons would be quite good at countering them as well).
As it is, the only really viable counter to dropping is counter dropping. This leads to all the drop-capable groups sitting in station while their cyno hunts targets, possibly with one tasty ship out ratting as bait. Sure, a well executed counter-drop can be fun, but the vast majority of your time is squandered inside the ship hangar. IMO more options to counter drops, even if they are not foolproof, means more people out in space instead of waiting around in station, whether it's to try and shut down the cyno or help support it.
As for 3), I've been on both sides of the situation many times. I find it quite boring and would like to see more ships in space. I think my idea has the potential for that, perhaps with some fleshing out. And happy blops pilots do not need to feel threatened by it. As you pointed out, there are ways to counter this counter.
Basically, it's just one more monkey wrench to stir the pot.
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Alexis Nightwish
198
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Posted - 2015.05.20 17:28:47 -
[21] - Quote
People keep saying "It's easy, just kill the cyno"
Let's do a play-by-play.
Cyno ship lights cyno and calls out "Cyno up!" (takes about 1 second) Titan or carrier pilots do the right click menu dance to open portal or jump (takes about 1 second) Titan pilot calls out "Jump jump jump!" (takes about 1 second) Fleet right clicks titan and selects jump (takes about 1 second) Ships travel through the jump tunnel/load the remote grid (takes 2-5 seconds)
From the cyno going up, till fleet is landing on top of you, is from 4-9 seconds.
Assuming that you know that a ship is packing a cyno, and assuming you're not busy with something else (like combat?), and assuming your fleet is super pro and has a response time of zero, can you lock and destroy the following in under 9 seconds?
[Maller, Brick cyno] Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Damage Control II
Warp Disruptor II Warp Disruptor II Faint Warp Disruptor I
Cynosural Field Generator I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
114,000 EHP on overheat. You will need to do somewhere between 13,000 to 28,500 DPS (depending on how long it takes for the enemy fleet to get to you) to stop from being dropped. Given that this ship is less than 25m ISK, there's no reason to not use a second or even a third.
So tell me again how easy it is to kill the cyno.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
196
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Posted - 2015.05.20 21:07:42 -
[22] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:People keep saying "It's easy, just kill the cyno"
Let's do a play-by-play.
Cyno ship lights cyno and calls out "Cyno up!" (takes about 1 second) Titan or carrier pilots do the right click menu dance to open portal or jump (takes about 1 second) Titan pilot calls out "Jump jump jump!" (takes about 1 second) Fleet right clicks titan and selects jump (takes about 1 second) Ships travel through the jump tunnel/load the remote grid (takes 2-5 seconds)
From the cyno going up, till fleet is landing on top of you, is from 4-9 seconds.
Assuming that you know that a ship is packing a cyno, and assuming you're not busy with something else (like combat?), and assuming your fleet is super pro and has a response time of zero, can you lock and destroy the following in under 9 seconds?
[Maller, Brick cyno]
114,000 EHP on overheat. You will need to do somewhere between 13,000 to 28,500 DPS (depending on how long it takes for the enemy fleet to get to you) to stop from being dropped. Given that this ship is less than 25m ISK, there's no reason to not use a second or even a third.
So tell me again how easy it is to kill the cyno. In that case, is a targeted cyno squasher really going to stop the fleet from bridging through? A lot of that time is eaaten up by reacting to the appearance of a new ship (warp in, or decloak), locking the ship, then throwing the suppression on it.
And this assumes that you're within suppression range. If not, then add time to burn into range. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
299
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Posted - 2015.05.21 01:34:26 -
[23] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:As it is, the only really viable counter to dropping is counter dropping.
Alexis Nightwish wrote:[Maller, Brick cyno]
Or...you know, not taking obvious bait. Maller is terrible because everyone knows its a cyno. If you get scrammed by something as obvious and slow as a maller, you have bigger issues. You can annoy a cyno maller and blueball his gang by just sending enough kiting ships to tear it apart slowly - it's not going to light unless it has a solid lock on something, and if it does light, you can all just scurry away.
Ship scanners and cargo scanners are also your friends, but again, most bait ships can be discerned more readily through judgement alone.
Procurer? check to see if it has a mining laser equipped. If no, its a cyno.
If you want to make convincing bait, you have to hull tank it so it still goes really fast but has enough buffer to initiate and aggressively tackle something.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1083
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Posted - 2015.05.21 02:13:49 -
[24] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Or...you know, not taking obvious bait. Maller is terrible because everyone knows its a cyno. If you get scrammed by something as obvious and slow as a maller, you have bigger issues. You can annoy a cyno maller and blueball his gang by just sending enough kiting ships to tear it apart slowly - it's not going to light unless it has a solid lock on something, and if it does light, you can all just scurry away. Again, I'm not talking about getting jumped by unknown cyno characters in obvious mallers. I'm proposing an idea to deal with known cyno alts that roam about every day in the same ship using the same tactic.
Yes, kiting ships can be used, but the situation is still fairly low risk for the cyno as he can always just drop carriers. And if it's a recon he won't even uncloak without a real target.
I'm pretty sure the maller example was just an exaggeration of the point that you can't just alpha the cyno in most situations, and to suggest that you can is just silly.
To reiterate, the goal here is not to be immune to cynos or make them useless. It is to make cynos fallible so that tactics and supporting ships become more important than remembering to bring ozone and stay within jump range.
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
299
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Posted - 2015.05.21 02:46:34 -
[25] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:It is to make cynos fallible so that tactics and supporting ships become more important than remembering to bring ozone and stay within jump range.
They already are. Deny them the drop. Bring lots of yellow jams or just kite the cyno ship. You win? It's hardly an I win button if the maller is jammed/kited and has to panic light, you all warp off, and all the people who were waiting on the bridge have fatigue and no kills for all the waiting you made them do.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1083
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Posted - 2015.05.21 02:49:41 -
[26] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:They already are. Deny them the drop. Bring lots of yellow jams or just kite the cyno ship. You win? It's hardly an I win button if the maller is jammed/kited and has to panic light, you all warp off, and all the people who were waiting on the bridge have fatigue and no kills for all the waiting you made them do. This is boring for both sides and the lack of real risk makes it a daily recurring experience. I'm trying to liven things up by forcing both sides to consider alternative tactics.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
971
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Posted - 2015.05.21 03:43:23 -
[27] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:They already are. Deny them the drop. Bring lots of yellow jams or just kite the cyno ship. You win? It's hardly an I win button if the maller is jammed/kited and has to panic light, you all warp off, and all the people who were waiting on the bridge have fatigue and no kills for all the waiting you made them do. This is boring for both sides and the lack of real risk makes it a daily recurring experience. I'm trying to liven things up by forcing both sides to consider alternative tactics.
This is Eve. If you cannot win, than you deny them any satisfaction from the experience.
You are trying to have a personal cyno jammer on your ship. If you want that, stay in high sec or go to WH space.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1083
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Posted - 2015.05.21 04:01:51 -
[28] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Having a personal cyno jammer on a ship will not make the game any more exciting for the BLOPS gang that is hunting you. It just gives you another way to get away when you fritter away all the other tools at your disposal (like paying attention). This still isn't a "whoops, pants caught around my ankles, better jam the cyno" suggestion. People won't fit them to everything on the off chance they get dropped. Highslots are too valuable.
The situation I have in mind is where you know EXACTLY what that cyno alt is doing in your system and why, what they are flying, and what they intend to do with it. This will not benefit people who aren't "paying attention". It will just provide one more way to provoke a fight with them (current suggestions are kite the cyno until you all get bored, dock up until you get bored and log off, or counter drop until the whole region gets bored and unsubs). And the fact that it exists as an option will force the droppers as well as any possible counter droppers to factor it into their risk assessment, either bringing more ships to support their cyno or running the risk of having to abandon it.
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Tabyll Altol
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
93
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:15:56 -
[29] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Highslot utility mod, prevents a cyno from being lit and/or deactivates an active cyno. Perhaps just "jams" the cyno so that it still has to cycle the full duration but becomes unusable.
Would allow some counterplay to known hotdroppers, forcing them to be more careful in bait ships and hopefully encouraging less one-sided conflict where people are more willing to fight. Probably wouldn't have much effect on large scale capital ops where multiple backup cynos are already used.
Clearly there would be many repercussions - some good, some bad. Some depend on your point of view.
Discuss!
Already implemented it-¦s called volley damage. Just adjust your damage to volley the ships ;)
-1 |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1229
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:23:08 -
[30] - Quote
I've never in all my time in eve had a bait ship pop before we got through. Not ever.
That solution is like suggesting jumping before you hit the ground will save you from a falling elevator. |
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