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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7029
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Posted - 2015.05.20 18:49:57 -
[1] - Quote
Some news for you all.
And for those who were engaging in ridiculous conspiracy theories, hey! Look! It's Lina Ambrose publishing an article.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
536
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Posted - 2015.05.20 19:15:02 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:Eifyr and Co. will most likely be charged with GÇ£corporate negligence leading to the death of an employeeGÇ¥ if it can be ascertained that there are GÇ£reasonable grounds to believe that Dr. Tukoss is deceased.GÇ¥ WTF?!..
Since when Concord is also the international, cluster-wide Supreme Court and Justice Department, or is Tukoss' death a crime against humanity, or what the everliving seething sleeper-infested hell?
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7029
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Posted - 2015.05.20 19:37:17 -
[3] - Quote
That's, uh, certainly a lesser charge than I would've imagined. Still, I think it's mostly an excuse to dig very deeply indeed into Eifyr & Co.'s dealings.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1158
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Posted - 2015.05.20 20:18:30 -
[4] - Quote
It wouldn't surprise me if Eifyr have been trying to get their hands on Drifter tech around the implants they use. This would be a very compelling reason to keep quiet about them. |
Deceiver's Echo
True Resource Acquisition Corporation
57
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Posted - 2015.05.20 20:32:21 -
[5] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:That's, uh, certainly a lesser charge than I would've imagined. Still, I think it's mostly an excuse to dig very deeply indeed into Eifyr & Co.'s dealings.
Edit: on further thought, carrot and stick. CONCORD wishes to have Eifyr & Co. cooperate with the investigation, and so are using the interstellar security charge as a stick, while the negligence charge is a carrot. It's possible.
I'm more curious about the negligence charge. If Eifyr sent Tukoss into the unidentified system, it would mean they had access to the technology to reach that system and that Eifyr gave this technology to Tukoss. On the other hand, Tukoss was a capsuleer. He should have had a clone contract. If he died, he would have been cloned.
So. The fact that he is apparently dead would mean someone intentionally deactivated the means by which Mr. Tukoss would have survived the destruction of his ship. Or it could mean Tukoss is still alive, and Eifyr is attempting to hide that fact by claiming he died, taking the negligence charge in return for not providing full information to authorities.
For those wondering about why CONCORD is taking the lead in this investigation, that right there is your smoking gun. This opens up an interesting possibility; is Eifyr hiding more? It's obvious by this chain of reasoning that they are. The question is what is it? Negligence by allowing Tukoss to die, or putting the Cluster at risk to further their own ends? |
Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
113
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Posted - 2015.05.20 20:38:16 -
[6] - Quote
Lina Ambre filing a report does not necessarily indicate her complete freedom.
Her legal status aside, there seems to be several layers of information concerning our new neighbors. Some of it, we've been able to figure out for ourselves. Some is held by CONCORD and the DED, and now it seems that Eifyr and Co. might be sitting on a few more tidbits that they're no longer willing to share with the DED. I'm not even going to speculate on what and why.
But once again, we see the DED trying to grab at more power and control.
"(Eifyr and Co.)...corporation may face significant financial penalties for concealing the footage, which could be considered withholding information vital to Interstellar Security."
If the DED feels it can bring in the heads of a corporation or civilian individuals based on grounds that it is "vital to interstellar security," then they're going to feel free to detain anyone for any length of time for any trumped up reason.
Let that sink in.
That means whatever a Gallente or Matari feels about "freedom," whatever Corp a Caldari serves or the faith of any Amarr are now secondary to what the DED and by extension CONCORD thinks is best for "interstellar security." This is a jar of minced Fedos that cannot be easily closed. This is a level of power, that once tasted, is instantly addicting. How much more proof is needed that the DED needs to be brought down several pegs?
I for one, do not welcome our new CONCORD-subsidized overlords.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
113
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Posted - 2015.05.20 20:41:09 -
[7] - Quote
Deceiver's Echo wrote: For those wondering about why CONCORD is taking the lead in this investigation, that right there is your smoking gun. This opens up an interesting possibility; is Eifyr hiding more? It's obvious by this chain of reasoning that they are. The question is what is it? Negligence by allowing Tukoss to die, or putting the Cluster at risk to further their own ends?
And that's just it, isn't it? Why is CONCORD leading an investigation that should have been run by the Republic?
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7029
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Posted - 2015.05.20 20:48:17 -
[8] - Quote
This just in: a century-old interstellar arbitration and law enforcement group arbitrates and enforces law, and does it without being beholden completely to all of the empires.
That said, Mokk, did you happen upon any sort of fact that might support your continued wearing of tinfoil headgear? Anything you can show in public?
Also, for those following along at home, Mokk's currently engaged in a slippery slope fallacy, and-- oh, what to call that one where you selectively insinuate that CONCORD will undermine the deeply-held values of each empire in turn? I have a meeting shortly, but I'll certainly have to identify which of the myriad options fits best.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4852
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Posted - 2015.05.20 21:31:42 -
[9] - Quote
Priano-haani, I'll leave you to reflect on what the response would be if Concord decided that an employee of Lai Dai or Ishukone had acted contrary to the interests of "Interstellar Security" while following a directive of those corporations.
I'd remind you that some of us are equally happy that Admiral Yanala both did NOT fire on Caldari Prime and DID fire on DED personnel attempting to interfere in State business.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Deceiver's Echo
True Resource Acquisition Corporation
58
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Posted - 2015.05.20 21:55:30 -
[10] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:And that's just it, isn't it? Why is CONCORD leading an investigation that should have been run by the Republic? On the withholding evidence charge: Drifters are present across Empire space. Withholding evidence of their potential arrival therefore affected all the Empires. Therefore, CONCORD has jurisdiction as the Drifters are a threat to all four Empires.
It seems rather straightforward to me.
On the negligence charge: Hilen Tukoss was a Capsuleer. If he died while in a Capsule, and Eifyr was in charge of his clone, then Eifyr is responsible for his death regardless of the circumstances of said death.
Again, fairly straightforward. |
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7029
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:35:24 -
[11] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Priano-haani, I'll leave you to reflect on what the response would be if Concord decided that an employee of Lai Dai or Ishukone had acted contrary to the interests of "Interstellar Security" while following a directive of those corporations.
I'd remind you that some of us are equally happy that Admiral Yanala both did NOT fire on Caldari Prime and DID fire on DED personnel attempting to interfere in State business.
Tuulinen-haan; in that situation, I would question Lai Dai or Ishukone, and I would consider this a failure of judgment on their part warranting due reward. This would not be merited if, say, Eifyr & Co. (or, for analogy's sake, Ishukone, Hyasyoda, or any of the Eight) had divulged this broadcast upon the appearance of the Vigilant Tyrannos in known space. Indeed, if they had done that via channels with a request that it remain confidential, I suspect Eifyr & Co. would not be facing the current inquiry.
We both know that duty takes many forms; while duty to all is not so immediate and concrete a duty as that to corporation, or the immediate and most pressing duty to kirjuun, it must still be something tended to. I know this sounds terribly impractical.
Oh, also, Mokk: appeal to fear is the logical fallacy that I was searching for earlier. Enjoy!
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
113
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:09:43 -
[12] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:This just in: a century-old interstellar arbitration and law enforcement group arbitrates and enforces law, and does it without being beholden completely to all of the empires.
That said, Mokk, did you happen upon any sort of fact that might support your continued wearing of tinfoil headgear? Anything you can show in public?
Also, for those following along at home, Mokk's currently engaged in a slippery slope fallacy, and-- oh, what to call that one where you selectively insinuate that CONCORD will undermine the deeply-held values of each empire in turn? I have a meeting shortly, but I'll certainly have to identify which of the myriad options fits best.
Your first sentence illustrates the core issue. They're supposed to arbitrate. They are supposed to be beholden to all the empires equally, not above them. They are supposed to work for the governments of New Eden, not the reverse.
I see nothing yet to refute my stance that CONCORD is corrupt. Your continues unquestioning defense of them almost makes me want to ask how much they're paying you.
What do you call a person who "selectively insinuate that CONCORD will undermine the deeply-held values of each empire in turn?"
Pirate, dear. Criminal. Lawbreaker. Outlaw. You might also try wise, intelligent, realist and experienced in the way governments work. "Insinuate?" I'm flat out accusing them of crossing the line. Maybe your corporate structure allows for bootlicking CONCORD, by my faith says that God is the only authority over Amarr. Not CONCORD. I'd rather be an honest pirate than a false sycophant.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Deceiver's Echo
True Resource Acquisition Corporation
62
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pilot Mokk,
Claiming CONCORD is an authority you do not recognize is beside the point. Your view about this being a proverbial "slippery slope" cannot be proven except for the passage of time, and is therefore a distraction. You have a belief that this is a Republic matter. What is your basis for this assertion? All of the evidence that I see points to CONCORD's legitimate grounds for investigation.
Prove to me that this is a Republic matter that should be handled by the Republic, and I will gladly accept your point. It most likely won't change CONCORD's view. I also have not seen anything int he news about the Republic claiming CONCORD is overstepping their authority.
Aside from your own theory making, is there any logical basis for believing that CONCORD is doing anything other than what it is legitimately within it's rights to do? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7031
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:41:45 -
[14] - Quote
So. Now, I know this is news to you, but evidently there's this thing called international law, and usually enforcement of it is surrendered to a body outside of the participating states, to avoid situations where one state completely overrules the interests and laws of another state fully for its own needs.
Shocking, I know.
As for CONCORD's corruption-- aside from war declarations being a paying-off of CONCORD to allow Capsuleers to do what Capsuleers always do, do you have evidence? I know evidence is a dirty word for you, and you'd rather engage in yet another fallacious and hilariously false attack on the power structure as it stands, but please do try. At least a little bit. I'd love to ever at all see evidence come from you for your claims.
Oh, and I know reading is difficult for you, but if you read the post above yours, I identified your prior fallacy as an 'appeal to fear' fallacy, and also a slippery slope.
Now, that said, while I know you'd love to call yourself wise, intelligent, experienced, etc, reputation is built on more than proclamations. I'm willing to accept that outlaws can be intelligent and capable actors. Maker, I'll freely acknowledge that Deceiver's Echo is knowledgeable and intelligent, despite our being ideologically divergent. But you-- you still haven't established the cachet for me to consider that a possibility. Instead, I know that you're wearing the insignia of a known group of miscreants, and claim that the powers that be are evil.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
113
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Posted - 2015.05.21 01:41:45 -
[15] - Quote
Deceiver's Echo wrote:Pilot Mokk,
Claiming CONCORD is an authority you do not recognize is beside the point. Your view about this being a proverbial "slippery slope" cannot be proven except for the passage of time, and is therefore a distraction. You have a belief that this is a Republic matter. What is your basis for this assertion? All of the evidence that I see points to CONCORD's legitimate grounds for investigation.
Prove to me that this is a Republic matter that should be handled by the Republic, and I will gladly accept your point. It most likely won't change CONCORD's view. I also have not seen anything in the news about the Republic claiming CONCORD is overstepping their authority.
Aside from your own theory making, is there any logical basis for believing that CONCORD is doing anything other than what it is legitimately within it's rights to do?
Given my current associations, it may seem to you that my stance is self-serving. But I've been critical of CONCORD long before I became an Angel.
CONCORD is supposed to be an arbiter between the governments, not an authority over them. So a Matari corporation's wrongdoings should be handled by the Republic. CONCORD should only be able to apprehend and extradite, not be sole authority in any arena, especially Interstellar Law. Once CONCORD Law supersedes governmental law, that government ceases to have any real authority. I can commit a crime, throw a pile of ISK at CONCORD and be absolved of all wrongdoing in the eyes of their "law."
Not only do we see proof of their excess of authority in this case (detaining civilians without charge, compelling corporations to answer to unspecified charges) we also have to consider CONCORD's long history of failure. Look at what's become of the Caldari Homeworld. Look at their failure at keeping peace between the Amarr and the Matari Elder Fleet. Look at their complete failure to address threats like the Sansha, Bloodraiders, and yes, "pirate" groups like my own! Their supposed "laws" allow people like Nauplius to commit mass murder with impunity; and tie the hands of the Empire who are the ones who should be dealing with him. But share important intel on an emergent threat like the Drifters and they can detain you without charge? So not only are they doing what they shouldn't be doing, they're failing miserably at the work they are supposed to be doing, and they're making piles of ISK in the process. This isn't Order, this is corruption on high.
I'm "lawless" for a damn good reason. And like my King, I refuse to be broken for a useless cause when my work remains unfinished.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
113
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Posted - 2015.05.21 01:43:11 -
[16] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Blather
See above for my stance. CONCORD is rot. Feel free to dance into perdition if you want, but I won't.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Deceiver's Echo
True Resource Acquisition Corporation
62
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Posted - 2015.05.21 02:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:I'm "lawless" for a damn good reason. I understand your point. That is not the question though. Your viewpoint, being an Angel and (if I understand your usage of the term "King" correctly) supporter of the Khanid Kingdom, would mean your opinion is just that. You do not represent the Republic, and as the Republic has not made official statement opposing the investigation. There is no grounds to say that CONCORD is overstepping it's authority in this instance aside from your opinion.
I ask for evidence that there is a logical objection. I see none. I see your--in your eyes--well-founded distrust for CONCORD. I understand that. However, it does not sway my opinion. My only concern has been for the individuals detained previously. As they are now released I see no further concern. It is now in the hands of CONCORD and Eifyr, and the investigation will determine what happens next.
Perhaps bringing these concerns to your own thread, and opening up a dialogue that way may help your cause. I wish you the best of luck. You may wish to request others who may have similar concerns to petition Republic representatives to bring complaints to CONCORD, or perhaps through representatives of the Khanid Kingdom. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1159
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:09:07 -
[18] - Quote
My view here is that CONCORD have acted correctly in their investigation int Eifyr. The Drifters are not just affecting the Republic, they are entering and interacting in all areas of space (and not just the Empires). This is a holistic issue for the whole of New Eden. If they are a threat then it is to us all, if they ultimately need assistance then it should be all of New Eden that provide it.
CONCORD may be an imperfect organization but when is such ever perfect? They've done a reasonably good job so far and keep the excesses of the Empires and capsuleers in check by one means or another. Eifyr recklessly endangered the entirety of New Eden by withholding information for corporate gain or protection and should answer for these actions. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1522
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:59:05 -
[19] - Quote
I agree with Mokk. CONCORD should be calling on the Republic to investigate and try corporations in its sovereignty.
Demanding the release of documents or videos important to Interstellar Security is one thing. What is in error is the complete bypass of Republic leadership to impose on high its own investigation and punishment of a corporation under Republic sovereignty. As Mokk said, CONCORD should be arbitrating between governments, not lording over them.
CONCORD has in the last few decades twisted itself into something far larger and far more invasive than it ever should have been, and this is something that should not be excused.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1159
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Posted - 2015.05.21 10:02:36 -
[20] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:...
CONCORD has in the last few decades twisted itself into something far larger and far more invasive than it ever should have been, and this is something that should not be tolerated.
One could say the same of the Empires. The issue at hand (i.e. the Drifters and the possible threat they pose/face) affects everyone, not just a single Empire. On that Basis it is best that CONCORD investigate the actions of this corporation. This is a New Eden wide issue, not a Republic issue. |
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1524
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Posted - 2015.05.21 12:17:37 -
[21] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:One could say the same of the Empires. The issue at hand (i.e. the Drifters and the possible threat they pose/face) affects everyone, not just a single Empire. On that Basis it is best that CONCORD investigate the actions of this corporation. This is a New Eden wide issue, not a Republic issue.
A New Eden-wide issue should not mean that CONCORD takes sole authority. It should mean that CONCORD facilitates joint diplomatic and strategic meetings of its member states, and the decisions of those states are what should determine its direction. The Inner Council's authority is suspect since it is comprised of and bound to none of the member states.
Yes, this is a New Eden-wide issue. But it being a New Eden-wide issue does not mean that the sovereignty of the CONCORD member states should be ignored. If CONCORD believes Eifyr & Co. have committed a crime, then it should call on local Republic authorities to deal with that crime. If CONCORD believes Eifyr & Co. are withholding information vital to interstellar security, then it should call on the Republic to procure that information and bring it before the DED. What it should not be doing is taking matters into its own hands and completely bypassing local authorities.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1280
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Posted - 2015.05.21 13:38:20 -
[22] - Quote
This is just a guess. But what if DED has been infiltrated by Drifters, or whom (or what)ever entity is controlling the Drifter faction? That would explain a lot.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Trii Seo
730
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Posted - 2015.05.21 13:43:22 -
[23] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:...
CONCORD has in the last few decades twisted itself into something far larger and far more invasive than it ever should have been, and this is something that should not be tolerated. One could say the same of the Empires. The issue at hand (i.e. the Drifters and the possible threat they pose/face) affects everyone, not just a single Empire. On that Basis it is best that CONCORD investigate the actions of this corporation. This is a New Eden wide issue, not a Republic issue.
And of course who is better at protecting New Eden than the notoriously inept police force that doesn't even have the ddcency to be corrupt?
I'd honestly put more faith in independent capsuleer investigations, given DED's love for obfuscating vital information.
The king is dead, long live the king!
Glory to Maximilian Singularity the Sixth, First of his Name!
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