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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
709
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:24:03 -
[421] - Quote
Mid would be a better option, but Ishtars as is would still compete with Battleships, not HACs.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
745
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:24:34 -
[422] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Quote:How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage. So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present. Still a major blow to the combo of ranges, and means that ishtars and similar can have their slots pruned and fitting room re-adjusted appropriately more easily to prevent them from getting full damage with full application and range with oversized prop and plate.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
709
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:26:18 -
[423] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Quote:How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage. So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present. Still a major blow to the combo of ranges, and means that ishtars and similar can have their slots pruned and fitting room re-adjusted appropriately more easily to prevent them from getting full damage with full application and range with oversized prop and plate.
There can be a gentleman's agreement not to fit DLAs with the same cancerous Ishtar fleets - it can develop naturally.
The issue at hand is Battleship weaponry on a cruiser hull.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
745
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:26:28 -
[424] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Mid would be a better option, but Ishtars as is would still compete with Battleships, not HACs. Oh yeah, it's a headshot.... against a cyborg zombie abomination of a ship.
Sentry nerfs, like this, along with a fitting room trim, and much more midslot pressure, would mean that a good ishtar doctrine punches up.... in one style of engagement, but is easily countered in most others.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
709
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:28:44 -
[425] - Quote
Still doesn't rectify the fact that the Zealot or the Eagle can't do 450 DPS at 130 km.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
745
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:32:07 -
[426] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Still doesn't rectify the fact that the Zealot or the Eagle can't do 450 DPS at 130 km. I still think the eagle is an attempt at giving the caldari a blaster brawler to compete with the diemost.
Talking more,
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
709
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:33:31 -
[427] - Quote
The Eagles were actually employed in fleet warfare, just like the Zealots. Tengu is the latest iteration of that.
September, 2013 - Odyssey 1.1 Never Forget.
P.S. What's a Muninn? ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦)
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
745
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:36:11 -
[428] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: P.S. What's a Munnin? ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦)
Them feels bro. I want a Munnin that competes in the role it so obviously was made for, not one overshadowed by the broadsword at being an arty HAC
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
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Making battleships worth the warp
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
709
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Posted - 2015.05.25 18:40:23 -
[429] - Quote
More distribution towards other HACs can be achieved by fixing the Ishtar, because this is not funny - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1
Data from Pre-Scylla via Rise's blog. An alternate version can be found in my signature, and the original elsewhere - it hides the truth.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1292
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Posted - 2015.05.25 21:41:27 -
[430] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Mid would be a better option, but Ishtars as is would still compete with Battleships, not HACs. Oh yeah, it's a headshot.... against a cyborg zombie abomination of a ship. Sentry nerfs, like this, along with a fitting room trim, and much more midslot pressure, would mean that a good ishtar doctrine punches up.... in one style of engagement, but is easily countered in most others.
It needs to be low to fight with DDA and fitting mods. Also to fight for Armor tank (domi pain, going shield makes bombs far more dangerous).
Also because the mid omni is the best sniping option so it's not really reasonable to make it compete with another range mod.
The battleship snipers, for example Apocs, would really run over the ishtars with such a configuration. Napocs could actually do it before, this would just make it really dominant. |
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
66
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Posted - 2015.05.25 22:30:32 -
[431] - Quote
afkalt wrote:[quote=James Baboli] The battleship snipers, for example Apocs, would really run over the ishtars with such a configuration. Napocs could actually do it before, this would just make it really dominant.
Uhh, you know full well that Apocs are a BS, they are supposed to **** on cruisers. It's frigates they are supposed to struggle with...
This problem will continue until something resembling the following is implemented or until sentries are nerfed to the point where sentries return to being useless.
Ishtar's need to: 1) Have their bandwidth reduced to 75 2) Role bonus changed such that their drone damage and health is increased by 66% 3) Cruiser per level bonuses effect Drone max velocity and tracking, and hybrid weapon tracking 4) HAC per level bonuses effect Drone optimal range and hybrid weapon optimal range 5) Drone bay reduced to 200 (2 flights of heavies/sentries and 1 flight of mediums under new stats)
Sentries need: 1) ~20km control range to prevent over use of this battleship level sniping platform in kiting doctrines
Dominix (and only Dominix) would then need: 1) Role bonus of 500% increase to sentry drone control range
Ishtar pilots can now chose between a kite/brawl set up with blasters/rails and mobile drones -or- a full sniping fit with sentries and rails. Those that went through and mathed it already would also see that this is a damage increase when using any light or medium drone over the current Ishtar. This would be a buff to the base stats of a brawling Ishtar, while nerfing the current shoot-you-at-100 while kiting fits we currently see. The control range on sentries is seriously something that should have been implemented with their launch as a stationary weapons platform. The ability to kite players into their optimal in a fast cruiser hull is why they became a problem in the first place. This is simply needed to bring the use of such a platform in line with other slow/long range platforms. |
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
35
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Posted - 2015.05.25 23:23:19 -
[432] - Quote
EDIT: Removed Post |
Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
326
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Posted - 2015.05.25 23:47:47 -
[433] - Quote
Ran the math on this My Ishtar puts out (rounded down)
500 DPS with Curators alone an additional 150-200 with blasters So i lose 15.50 DPS off this change for a total of 484.5DPS with JUST my curators I lose 13% of my tracking as well.
The problem here is my fit has room to neutralize those changes either through rigging or additional mods to maintain the same stats I am now after a very quick refit and a little bit of ISK investment.
Yes sentry drones are a bit crazy now, but if we nerf them we hurt other ships too. We nerf the hulls to hard, nobody flys it and people move on to the next flavor in line which then gets nerfed too.
Perhaps what we should be doing is taking the time to bring the other hulls UP to compare with the Ishtar ( for example ) rather than trying to bring down a bunch of hulls all at once.
Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
748
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Posted - 2015.05.25 23:57:13 -
[434] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Ran the math on this My Ishtar puts out (rounded down)
500 DPS with Curators alone an additional 150-200 with blasters So i lose 15.50 DPS off this change for a total of 484.5DPS with JUST my curators I lose 13% of my tracking as well.
The problem here is my fit has room to neutralize those changes either through rigging or additional mods to maintain the same stats I am now after a very quick refit and a little bit of ISK investment.
Yes sentry drones are a bit crazy now, but if we nerf them we hurt other ships too. We nerf the hulls to hard, nobody flys it and people move on to the next flavor in line which then gets nerfed too.
Perhaps what we should be doing is taking the time to bring the other hulls UP to compare with the Ishtar ( for example ) rather than trying to bring down a bunch of hulls all at once.
This way lays powercreep. It is simpler to keep a relative power level by hammering the high points, and filling in the depressions. If CCP makes the high points depressed, they should eventually get around to filling them back in up to par.
So the question for if sentries and thus ships using sentries are out of balance is largely now, what are they compared to? Are they supposed to be comparable to large turrets, in either the long range or short range categories? Are they supposed to compare to medium turrets, seeing as after all, they're accessible to cruisers? Are they balanced against some arbitrary set of numbers somewhere, or actual performance?
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2360
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Posted - 2015.05.26 00:20:34 -
[435] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas.
Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking
We welcome feedback as always!
We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose
+1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally
Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine.
The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game.
Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
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Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
326
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Posted - 2015.05.26 02:14:53 -
[436] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:Ran the math on this My Ishtar puts out (rounded down)
500 DPS with Curators alone an additional 150-200 with blasters So i lose 15.50 DPS off this change for a total of 484.5DPS with JUST my curators I lose 13% of my tracking as well.
The problem here is my fit has room to neutralize those changes either through rigging or additional mods to maintain the same stats I am now after a very quick refit and a little bit of ISK investment.
Yes sentry drones are a bit crazy now, but if we nerf them we hurt other ships too. We nerf the hulls to hard, nobody flys it and people move on to the next flavor in line which then gets nerfed too.
Perhaps what we should be doing is taking the time to bring the other hulls UP to compare with the Ishtar ( for example ) rather than trying to bring down a bunch of hulls all at once.
This way lays powercreep. It is simpler to keep a relative power level by hammering the high points, and filling in the depressions. If CCP makes the high points depressed, they should eventually get around to filling them back in up to par. So the question for if sentries and thus ships using sentries are out of balance is largely now, what are they compared to? Are they supposed to be comparable to large turrets, in either the long range or short range categories? Are they supposed to compare to medium turrets, seeing as after all, they're accessible to cruisers? Are they balanced against some arbitrary set of numbers somewhere, or actual performance?
Excellent question, as i have never thought of anything to compare sentry drones to, they are readily accessible to many cruisers be it an ishtar, stratios, vexor navy issue, prophecy, or arbitrator. But they put out battleship DPS despite this, perhaps heavy drones are what they compare to, except they just dont worry about flight time and all the impact mechanics involved in that as well.
Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
66
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Posted - 2015.05.26 02:18:28 -
[437] - Quote
Terra Chrall wrote:I see this as interesting, with some potential, though I disagree on 2 suggestions.
1) The drone bay. No reason not to leave it capable of 3 sets of the Heavy/Sentry. 225m3, keeps the choices and spares. 2) Control range. No need to change. If a ship opts to use sentries for long range sniping they will be out of rail range and lose that DPS. If they opt to stay in rail range, control range does not matter.
Plus as far as I can tell, Drone Control Range is a pilot stat not drone. So this would have to be reworked to accomplish your ends and it is an unnecessary addition of complexity to start with.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to grab the actual numbers. I was running numbers on paper so had a few numbers off actually with my math. I would agree with your suggestion of increasing the drone bay to 225, I was honestly thinking 2 flights plus back up. But you make a very good point of why 3 flights should be allowed. As for your second point, I can see the problem here. I could have sworn they reached out further, so maybe a larger optimal range bonus in in order.
I also agree it does do a number on the train time to get to perfect operation. However, the increased training should pay off in spades for those who can fly it optimally, while not being overbearingly so as medium weapon systems are not horribly long train times.
As for the control range currently you are 100% correct, control range is currently decided by the drone's base range+skills to decide how far out from you/your drones is to it's intended target you can issue orders to attack. I effectually want that aspect removed from sentries such that sentries have a set targeting range (their optimal+falloff) and their control range be based on possibly the sentry skill itself, something along the lines of 4km per level. Numbers of course being debatable.
And to reiterate, this doesn't effect their current functionality in the slightest to ECM/damps since to issue the attack command the pilot must still have the target lock, all that changes is their leash range to the sentries. |
ashley Eoner
476
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Posted - 2015.05.26 03:32:56 -
[438] - Quote
So the much vaunted teiricide is slowly being rolled back one ship and weapons system at a time...
I don't find the drones tracking to be out of line when compared to similar bonuses turret hulls. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
845
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Posted - 2015.05.26 03:48:52 -
[439] - Quote
Since CCP is so convinced that the sentries are the problem and not the Ishtar, this has me wondering.
What other sentry platform is overpowered? The Dominix? The reason we use it is because it requires far fewer fitting skills than virtually any other battleship doctrine. You want to fix that hull, you reduce its CPU and PG. The Eos? MAYBE. It's pretty balanced though, mostly due to the fact that it has much higher training requirements than the Ishtar, and its much more limited mobility in comparison. If you nerf the Ishtar this might emerge as the next favored ship, but it probably wouldn't. The Armageddon? Nah, it's just fine. If anything it could use a bit of a boost. The Nestor? No, that ship is a joke. Sentries don't really make it any better. The Rattlesnake? It's a pretty powerful ship, but it's pretty on par with the rest of the pirate battleships. If anything it needs a bit of a boost. The Stratios? Pretty balanced. It sees less PVP use than other pirate cruisers, but it has a decent amount of exploration utility. The Vexor/VNI? Powerful as far as T1 or Navy faction cruisers go, but still fairly balanced. As a gank boat the Vexor sees some utility, but otherwise its use is pretty even with other cruisers. Carriers? You can nerf sentries into the ground, it really isn't going to make much of a difference to how much these get used.
The only problem is the Ishtar. The only nerf that needs to happen is to the Ishtar. Sentries themselves are fine. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
994
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Posted - 2015.05.26 03:57:41 -
[440] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas.
Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking
We welcome feedback as always!
We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose +1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine. The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game. Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid.
I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
71
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Posted - 2015.05.26 06:46:22 -
[441] - Quote
I remember days when there were no sentry drones in fleet warfare and those days were pretty good. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1292
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Posted - 2015.05.26 07:28:30 -
[442] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:afkalt wrote:The battleship snipers, for example Apocs, would really run over the ishtars with such a configuration. Napocs could actually do it before, this would just make it really dominant. Uhh, you know full well that Apocs are a BS, they are supposed to **** on cruisers. It's frigates they are supposed to struggle with...
No, that's why we have battlecruisers!
The rest of the notions destroy the ships I'm afraid. Hell even my idea to punt the DLA to a low is overly harsh in the light of day. |
Gauro Charante
Vile Duck Pond
10
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Posted - 2015.05.26 09:31:02 -
[443] - Quote
Been reading these forums alot about them drones. I'm a drone user so it's nice to know whats going on with them.
These changes wont really bother me, the way i use them they are still waaayy too good (imho). Here are some ideas I've seen and tought about:
1. Just drop that HUGE hp pool those sentrys have. Why do they have that much HP? 30-50% less HP staight off might give them big fights a scare when sentrys cracks like eggs around them. For PvE that HP is useless anyways couse I have never seen NPC to get a good shot at them when I sit 50+km from the enemy with my drones
2. Give Heavys a good boost in HP and drop that Bandwith to 20. 10-20% more hp and they could take a beating and even maybe scary for some.
3. Cruisers can't get more than 100 MB bandwith, thus dropping those 5 sentry boats from the pic but 5 heavys are still in use. Also many other ships bandwith prolly would have to change acordingly. |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.05.26 11:03:10 -
[444] - Quote
@ gauro 1) there are man situations in pve where even the navy sentries cannot hold the aggro longer than 10sec. 3) this already happened with the last dmg-reduction.
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Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.05.26 11:08:20 -
[445] - Quote
@ gauro 1) there are man situations in pve where even the navy sentries cannot hold the aggro longer than 10sec. For example blond Rainer de 6/10 or 'besiged ....' sites. I'm not telling the HPs don't deserve a reduction. Just: the hps are useful in pve. 3) this already happened with the last dmg-reduction. |
DEFANDER
Jenny from the block
9
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Posted - 2015.05.26 13:29:18 -
[446] - Quote
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.
And i agree, there are "other forces" at work here. Pulling the rains. |
Casivek Andrard
Bloody Cross Syndicate Violent Declaration
7
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Posted - 2015.05.26 14:51:33 -
[447] - Quote
DEFANDER wrote:I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.
And i agree, there are "other forces" at work here. Pulling the rains.
If by other forces you mean the null bears crying at ccp to not balance the ship as they are a bunch of lazy f1 monkeys then sure you are right |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
12888
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Posted - 2015.05.26 15:06:36 -
[448] - Quote
DEFANDER wrote:I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
997
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Posted - 2015.05.26 15:23:38 -
[449] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:DEFANDER wrote:I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work.
Well, then, we look forward to more substantive responses!
It is good to see you are still following the threads. Shame that it takes a snarky post to get you to reveal your presence.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1836
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Posted - 2015.05.26 15:41:15 -
[450] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:DEFANDER wrote:I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Well, then, we look forward to more substantive responses! It is good to see you are still following the threads. Shame that it takes a snarky post to get you to reveal your presence.
That's because too many people take for granted that no post = no reading at all. That's the sad part about this forum section. |
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