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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1296
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 10:17:39 -
[481] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:afkalt wrote:What happens with TE? Betcha at those ranges they can graze. EFT will show it (if they ever fixed drone tracking math). This is my bet, that two Ishtars (10 Curator II's) scripted for tracking, were still getting some hits on him. Not sure whether that is a problem or not, especially if he was using orbit at 30km.
Yes, plus sentries drop 2-3 km away from each other at points, all it takes is a slightly uneven orbit (unavoidable because it isn't a single drone) and they'll nick you. EM sentries at a shield ship with low hp are gonna hurt. |
Jacid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 10:40:35 -
[482] - Quote
Don't:
Nerf sentries Nerf Ishtars or Domis
Do:
Have defender missiles target drones in order of threat Sentries>Heavies>medium>Lights
You could adjust the explosive velocity so that heavy defenders would be do lots of damage to sentries but less so to moving drones.
The ishtars could of course defend their sentries via firewall but then they wouldn't be able to be mobile and that would remove a lot of the benefit of flying an ishtar in the first place. Makes a more dynamic combat for eve and finally makes defender missiles useful.
/Thread |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1296
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 11:12:37 -
[483] - Quote
Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.
Inspired. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1000
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Posted - 2015.05.27 11:41:54 -
[484] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.
Inspired.
Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1839
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Posted - 2015.05.27 14:56:16 -
[485] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:afkalt wrote:Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.
Inspired. Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones.
Then they become a must have in fleets just in case... |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
776
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 17:03:16 -
[486] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:afkalt wrote:Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.
Inspired. Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones. Then they become a must have in fleets just in case... Tactical rock-paper-scissors is a valid balancing mechanic..... Though with CCPs usual balancing finesse it will probably come out more like Planet-cracking-asteriod-tissue-paper-shotgun.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
Maxi Dap
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.27 17:11:49 -
[487] - Quote
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. |
Jacid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 17:18:03 -
[488] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:afkalt wrote:Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter.
Inspired. Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones.
I think it offers a better solution than beating to death the ishtar and sentries with the nerf bat. Sentries should be more powerful than other weapon systems at the cost of being able to be destroyed as was intended
The alternative along those same lines is just to increase the sig radius and decrees the EHP of sentries looking at it with drone bonuses the garde has maybe 5k ehp and frig size sig. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1298
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 17:40:15 -
[489] - Quote
No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships.
I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING
I've long advocated in other threads to drop the control range bonus and nerf CPU to enforce a fitting compromise of range (DLA) vs DPS (DDA), for example. That doesn't kill the Ishtar at all, brawlers are untouched, snipers lose some DPS as they have too much today. PvE could drop tank to use say...overclocks because....PvE who needs the tank? |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
778
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 17:42:53 -
[490] - Quote
afkalt wrote:No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships. I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING Nah, it is usually Tank, speed, range, tracking, Ewar, DPS, pick 3 or pick half of 4. Ishtar gets to pick 5, which is why it is a problem.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1298
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 17:44:44 -
[491] - Quote
Yes, I was paraphrasing as on a mobile |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
778
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 17:47:52 -
[492] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Yes, I was paraphrasing as on a mobile Apologies for calling you out on brevity. Not sorry for helping expand the idea set as I agree with it entirely. Real fitting choices (even if they don't trim the fitting room, slot reduction or DLA adjustment should help alot)
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
847
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Posted - 2015.05.27 18:28:22 -
[493] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:What's wrong with drone tracking math? EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly. I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations. I didn't ask about EFT.
The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about. |
Abby Silverwind
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
5
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Posted - 2015.05.27 19:00:11 -
[494] - Quote
The rage and tears in this thread are beautiful. Nice changes +1
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
Your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1299
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 19:51:26 -
[495] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:afkalt wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:What's wrong with drone tracking math? EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly. I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations. I didn't ask about EFT. The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about.
But I was speaking in the context of EFT.... |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1109
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 20:30:33 -
[496] - Quote
Maxi Dap wrote:well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.
not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game.
and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1003
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 01:33:38 -
[497] - Quote
afkalt wrote:No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships. I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING I've long advocated in other threads to drop the control range bonus and nerf CPU to enforce a fitting compromise of range (DLA) vs DPS (DDA), for example. That doesn't kill the Ishtar at all, brawlers are untouched, snipers lose some DPS as they have too much today. PvE could drop tank to use say...overclocks because....PvE who needs the tank?
Just dropping the control range bonus would go a long way, because that nerfs the projection. I'm not even sure that it would be necessary to also nerf the CPU. Remember, the goal should be to bring the Ishtar in line with the Zealot, Muninn, and Eagle, not turn it into a smoking crater of uselessness.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
715
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 01:49:53 -
[498] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against?
Large Railguns and Beams.
They just forgot to adjust VNI & Ishtar bandwidths when DDAs came out.
Primary This Rifter wrote:afkalt wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:What's wrong with drone tracking math? EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly. I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations. I didn't ask about EFT. The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about.
Bonused sentries have Medium turret tracking, on top of being independent of the host ship's velocity, range or direction relative to the target.
Cry me a river.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
744
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Posted - 2015.05.28 04:23:13 -
[499] - Quote
So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries.
I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave. |
Teebeutel
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 05:23:20 -
[500] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries.
I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave. You can't orbit sentries effectively enough to give all of them tracking problems if they're spread out by even the slightest bit, which is something that any competently run ishtar fleet will make sure of, at certain fleet sizes the blob of sentries just becomes to big. Not to mention that in the time you would spend killing their sentries, they kill your fleetmates. |
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Maxi Dap
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.05.28 06:35:48 -
[501] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Maxi Dap wrote:well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not
Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships.
See if you can fit the criteria bellow:
460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
744
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 07:06:16 -
[502] - Quote
Teebeutel wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries.
I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave. You can't orbit sentries effectively enough to give all of them tracking problems if they're spread out by even the slightest bit, which is something that any competently run ishtar fleet will make sure of, at certain fleet sizes the blob of sentries just becomes to big. Not to mention that in the time you would spend killing their sentries, they kill your fleetmates.
So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness
It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
House of Freedom
208
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 07:29:23 -
[503] - Quote
Maxi Dap wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Maxi Dap wrote:well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships. See if you can fit the criteria bellow: 460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application
thats simply rediculous. this doesn't strike you as over the top?
Maxi Dap wrote: So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness
It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy.
If you are in a gang out for trouble, leaving is no problem. But what happens when you'd like to defend your POS/Station, with all your stuff in it? Leaving then means abandoning your home. You'll need a whole fleet of bombers just to clear multiple waves of sentries but they cannot stay on grid for combat because torpedoes are bad against speeding ishtars and would be shredded by warriors. With the upcoming changes to SOV mechanics, grid control is an important thing and if the only alternative to abandon grid is bringing more ishtars than your opponent, something is wrong for sure.
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
799
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Posted - 2015.05.28 07:31:56 -
[504] - Quote
Maxi Dap wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Maxi Dap wrote:well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships. See if you can fit the criteria bellow: 460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application Those are fairly impressive numbers, seeing as I can't get such numbers out of two ships which are reasonably agreed to be OP almost everywhere, specifically tengu and loki.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
Maxi Dap
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 08:39:23 -
[505] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
thats simply rediculous. this doesn't strike you as over the top?
Over the top compared to what? Hi-sec mission running? Incursions? I mean if I want to make 160m an hour in a C3 Wh where the risk is quet high thats over the top? Really?
It's nto the Ishtar thats broken, its every other (same sized hull) ship balanced for pvp that makes them suck in pve. Sure there is plenty of BS that are capable of pve, and they are out there. But didn't you guys get the memo? this is cruisers online.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1308
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Posted - 2015.05.28 09:29:59 -
[506] - Quote
Maxi Dap wrote: Cruiser sized hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application
This is literally everything that's wrong with them.
And by the way, Sleipnirs can do those sites roughly that fast. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
744
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 10:01:51 -
[507] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Maxi Dap wrote: So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness
It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy.
If you are in a gang out for trouble, leaving is no problem. But what happens when you'd like to defend your POS/Station, with all your stuff in it? Leaving then means abandoning your home. You'll need a whole fleet of bombers just to clear multiple waves of sentries but they cannot stay on grid for combat because torpedoes are bad against speeding ishtars and would be shredded by warriors. With the upcoming changes to SOV mechanics, grid control is an important thing and if the only alternative to abandon grid is bringing more ishtars than your opponent, something is wrong for sure.
I don't know.... Surely there are range bonuses ships that can fit sensor boosters and tracking enhancers to outrange sentries and just blap them from the sky? Rohk's seem like they could hit out further than you could get a sentry to go. It's not like the sentries are smaller than a cruiser and moving at all, should be pretty easy. If they were there to hit your POS. How many link augmentors are these ships supposed to be using? I understand it would be hard if only one person was defending the structure, but then several vs. One rarely works out for the one. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1308
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 10:13:43 -
[508] - Quote
Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range.
The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets |
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 10:24:33 -
[509] - Quote
Tamer wrote:Dear CCP. That fix do nothing. The only one thing you can do to nerf OP drone formats.
Add signature radius and/or reduce HP of drones.
1-2 bombs to kill drones, will be great. Shield Ishtar has 60k EHP. Its drones in drone bay have 120k EHP combined. CCP, why? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
744
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 11:12:02 -
[510] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range.
The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets
That may be the case... But if they warp to you then they have to deploy sentries again. don't stay there. The long range ship(s) are just to deal with the drones. Drones main weakness is being able to be shot. Use that.
Granted they are better than they were, but there was a day not long ago when drone based PvP was a bad joke. Remember why. |
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