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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
741
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:15:48 -
[91] - Quote
Natheniel wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith. But chemical control via vitoc is? Respectfully, Mr. Natheniel, the key question is whether the slave is capable of choosing to believe (however much they might be encouraged to do so).
If I remember the history, the Amarr were Sansha's Nation's strongest supporters, and the last empire to agree to go to war against Sansha Kuvakei after the True Slaves appeared.
The Amarr, I guess, did find Kuvakei's ideas intriguing, but ... removing free will defeats the purpose. |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
386
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:19:23 -
[92] - Quote
Jili Tonari wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:I would like to rectify my previous statement, this topic may entertain me for a bit longer than I thought.... I also popped more popcorn then I ment to, so I'll be hanging around. Yo! Still here? Yeah. Still here.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
470
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:21:30 -
[93] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:Liam Antolliere wrote:Anyanka Funk wrote:If Master Kuvakei, changed his citizens' implants to give his citizens joy from the belief in god and scripture, wouldn't that be more efficient than how the Amarr force their slaves to believe? I believe that would be rather counter-intuitive to the very foundation of faith. Forced acceptance and false belief aren't faith, they're delusions, at best, and mental conditioning, at worst. The Amarr, from my understanding, hold that the willing acceptance of submission to God is the beginning of faith, a vital component that cannot be replaced or circumvented. There is no willing acceptance through slavery. Then it wouldn't be slavery.
Ha! Fate has a sense of humor, it seems....I never thought I'd see the day where I would be arguing forj slavery, rather than against it.
Your sentiment, while completely understandable, represents a misunderstanding of the purpose of slavery in the Empire. A slave is never forced to accept faith nor is the acceptance of faith suddenly rewarded with freedom.
Slavery exists in order to break an individual free from distraction and teach them discipline, to instruct them in how to live a life that would be considered righteous before God. You can see the general philosophy behind this in the Scriptures:
Quote:"Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5
If the reward for acceptance of the faith was immediate emancipation, then I would see merit in your argument. However, even after accepting the faith, an individual's status as a slave doesn't change. They remain a slave until such a time that they are able to have the chains removed and walk the righteous path without them.
Almost like training wheels to a bicycle.
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Anyanka Funk
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
85
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:22:01 -
[94] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Natheniel wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith. But chemical control via vitoc is? Respectfully, Mr. Natheniel, the key question is whether the slave is capable of choosing to believe (however much they might be encouraged to do so). If I remember the history, the Amarr were Sansha's Nation's strongest supporters, and the last empire to agree to go to war against Sansha Kuvakei after the True Slaves appeared. The Amarr, I guess, did find Kuvakei's ideas intriguing, but ... removing free will defeats the purpose.
Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves.
Signature removed due to inappropriate content - CCP Falcon
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
386
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:24:06 -
[95] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Natheniel wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith. But chemical control via vitoc is? It isn't. Then how is it still a thing?
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Anyanka Funk
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
85
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:25:45 -
[96] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Anyanka Funk wrote:Liam Antolliere wrote:Anyanka Funk wrote:If Master Kuvakei, changed his citizens' implants to give his citizens joy from the belief in god and scripture, wouldn't that be more efficient than how the Amarr force their slaves to believe? I believe that would be rather counter-intuitive to the very foundation of faith. Forced acceptance and false belief aren't faith, they're delusions, at best, and mental conditioning, at worst. The Amarr, from my understanding, hold that the willing acceptance of submission to God is the beginning of faith, a vital component that cannot be replaced or circumvented. There is no willing acceptance through slavery. Then it wouldn't be slavery. Ha! Fate has a sense of humor, it seems....I never thought I'd see the day where I would be arguing forj slavery, rather than against it. Your sentiment, while completely understandable, represents a misunderstanding of the purpose of slavery in the Empire. A slave is never forced to accept faith nor is the acceptance of faith suddenly rewarded with freedom. Slavery exists in order to break an individual free from distraction and teach them discipline, to instruct them in how to live a life that would be considered righteous before God. You can see the general philosophy behind this in the Scriptures: Quote:"Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5 If the reward for acceptance of the faith was immediate emancipation, then I would see merit in your argument. However, even after accepting the faith, an individual's status as a slave doesn't change. They remain a slave until such a time that they are able to have the chains removed and walk the righteous path without them. Almost like training wheels to a bicycle.
I think this would suffice as an application letter to [PAUX].
Signature removed due to inappropriate content - CCP Falcon
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
741
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:30:33 -
[97] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Natheniel wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith. But chemical control via vitoc is? Respectfully, Mr. Natheniel, the key question is whether the slave is capable of choosing to believe (however much they might be encouraged to do so). If I remember the history, the Amarr were Sansha's Nation's strongest supporters, and the last empire to agree to go to war against Sansha Kuvakei after the True Slaves appeared. The Amarr, I guess, did find Kuvakei's ideas intriguing, but ... removing free will defeats the purpose. Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves. Even as a slave, I would have the option to rebel, and suffer for it, and probably eventually die.
Or just spit in my owner's soup, maybe.
Similarly, I might be forced to go through the motions of religious belief, and even study and recite the beliefs of my captors. I'm ... well, kind of clever. I could probably fake it. But the question of whether I actually believed would be mine alone.
True Slaves don't get that sort of choice. ... the mind isn't free (though it might be butchered as much as directly controlled). |
Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
470
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:31:12 -
[98] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:I think this would suffice as an application letter to [PAUX].
Do not misunderstand me...
The wise learn the ways of their adversaries not because they wish to adopt them but because understanding reveals paths otherwise hidden; either for peace or for war.
I am an administrator in a peace conference, it would be extremely difficult to facilitate that goal if I did not make some effort to understand the people on the opposite end of the table.
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1528
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:34:00 -
[99] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves.
Slaves have freedom of will. What they don't have is freedom of action.
Tyrel Toov wrote:Then how is it still a thing?
Because Holders use their best judgment in handling difficult subjects. Some slaves are too stubborn and hostile to be able to be managed with traditional means.
The issue with it, is that there are some places in the empire where it is used too liberally.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Anyanka Funk
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
87
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:48:30 -
[100] - Quote
I'm going to adopt a Drooler for experimentation with this subject.
Signature removed due to inappropriate content - CCP Falcon
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Natheniel
Mostly Sober The Bastard Cartel
0
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:50:48 -
[101] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Anyanka Funk wrote:Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves. Slaves have freedom of will. What they don't have is freedom of opportunity. Tyrel Toov wrote:Then how is it still a thing? Because Holders use their best judgment in handling difficult subjects. Some slaves are too stubborn and hostile to be able to be managed with more proper methods. The issue with it, is that there are some places in the empire where it is used too liberally.
If you state that vitoc is isn't better then the sansha use of implant control, why are you ok with it being used in any case? |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1528
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:52:58 -
[102] - Quote
Because people on drugs still have free will.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Natheniel
Mostly Sober The Bastard Cartel
0
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:55:04 -
[103] - Quote
So then you believe that vitoc use is acceptable |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
386
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:05:16 -
[104] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Because people on drugs still have free will. You are surprisingly ignorant of the effects of addiction, ain't you?
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1528
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Posted - 2015.05.22 16:09:34 -
[105] - Quote
I am quite aware of the effects of addiction.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
387
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Posted - 2015.05.22 16:16:51 -
[106] - Quote
Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Anyanka Funk
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
87
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Posted - 2015.05.22 16:25:55 -
[107] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix. How many billions do I have to pay for this to happen?
Signature removed due to inappropriate content - CCP Falcon
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1529
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Posted - 2015.05.22 16:26:47 -
[108] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix.
You are still mistaking freedom of will with freedom of opportunity. With vitoc you could maybe force me to lie to you, but you could not force me to abandon my faith. It is similar to traditional slave control because it can only force the person to perform an action, not change a belief. To change a belief requires the person to want to change it.
TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
389
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Posted - 2015.05.22 16:43:39 -
[109] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix. You are still mistaking freedom of will with freedom of opportunity. With vitoc you could maybe force me to lie to you, but you could not force me to abandon my faith. It is similar to traditional slave control because it can only force the person to perform an action, not change a belief. To change a belief requires the person to want to change it. TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head. So how long do you think it would take to break you, till you have repeated the lie so much it becomes believable?
Anyanka Funk wrote: How many billions do I have to pay for this to happen?
I won't do it for any amount. I'm not so shallow as to resort to that kind of behavior.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
178
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Posted - 2015.05.22 16:44:43 -
[110] - Quote
Natheniel wrote:So then you believe that vitoc use is acceptable Vitoc method is still debated in the Empire, so you won't get a precise answer to your question. |
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
741
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Posted - 2015.05.22 16:48:21 -
[111] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head. Um. Lt. Kernher? We should maybe draw a line between TCMC's, which I think the Khanid Kingdom uses, and Nation implants.
I know the Empire doesn't allow TCMC's, but ... if I remember, they do leave free will intact. They just sort of provide the subject a ... sort of reality-overlay. A slightly more pleasant reality to live in.
The idea still kind of makes me squirm, but it doesn't seem quite as ... intrusive? |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
390
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:54:51 -
[112] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head. Um. Lt. Kernher? We should maybe draw a line between TCMC's, which I think the Khanid Kingdom uses, and Nation implants. I know the Empire doesn't allow TCMC's, but ... if I remember, they do leave free will intact. They just sort of provide the subject a ... sort of reality-overlay. A slightly more pleasant reality to live in. The idea still kind of makes me squirm, but it doesn't seem quite as ... intrusive? All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
741
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Posted - 2015.05.22 17:07:01 -
[113] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less. Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion. |
Anyanka Funk
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
88
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Posted - 2015.05.22 17:18:20 -
[114] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less. Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion. That was not an opinion, it was was a true statement.
Signature removed due to inappropriate content - CCP Falcon
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
741
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Posted - 2015.05.22 17:29:46 -
[115] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less. Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion. That was not an opinion, it was was a true statement. Before ...
I used to challenge people to catch me an "inalienable human right" so I could mount it on my wall.
While I ... usually ... sort of try to be less harsh these days, my knowledge base is still essentially the same. So are a lot of my basic beliefs, I guess.
It doesn't seem to me that the universe shares your belief in an objective right and wrong, Ms. Funk.
Your opinion about Mr. Toov's opinion is, respectfully, just that. |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
391
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Posted - 2015.05.22 17:38:06 -
[116] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.
There's hardly a comment in this thread that doesn't fit this statement.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
741
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Posted - 2015.05.22 17:58:37 -
[117] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote: Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.
There's hardly a comment in this thread that doesn't fit this statement. Maybe that's true. The sides on this matter are pretty entrenched. But....
I mostly pointed it out because it's an area where nuance tends to get lost in a thick fog of highly-charged rhetoric (some of which might be usable as blaster ammunition if it were physical). The Amarr, with some exceptions, literally believe they've got a divine mandate to Reclaim humanity. Your own side, for some reason, seems to claim equivalent moral purpose, only without the divinity.
Labeling your own side as "good" and the other as "evil" is good for maintaining public support for a war, and I'm sure it makes it easier to pull the trigger, but it makes any resolution other than military victory ... sort of hard to come by, doesn't it?
One of the first things I read after coming to the Empire was the Pax Amarria. People tend to treat it as though it were sort of a missionary's version of the Amarrian scriptures, but it's actually much more interesting than that. It's an effort to move the Empire away from the idea of Reclaiming by the sword, and legitimize peaceful coexistence (and Reclaiming by nonviolent persuasion).
The Amarr do change. Have changed. Are changing. Positions are not static.
In this sort of environment, can you really afford to see no nuance in their positions, or your own?
If you can't get slavery banned within this generation, but can get Vitoc banned, or TCMC's, is that nothing?
Do you want an all-out war? We can do that. The Angels and Blooders (and Nation, which is a real problem), slavers all, can fight over whatever's left, after. What's more, Empress Jamyl has already demonstrated that she can damage the Republic economy and cause all sorts of social problems by giving you exactly what you ask for, even in part.
Is it really in your interests to be painting yourself into a rhetorical corner? Is it really in anyone's? |
Anyanka Funk
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
89
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 18:08:45 -
[118] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Anyanka Funk wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less. Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion. That was not an opinion, it was was a true statement. Before ... I used to challenge people to catch me an "inalienable human right" so I could mount it on my wall. While I ... usually ... sort of try to be less harsh these days, my knowledge base is still essentially the same. So are a lot of my basic beliefs, I guess. It doesn't seem to me that the universe shares your belief in an objective right and wrong, Ms. Funk. Your opinion about Mr. Toov's opinion is, respectfully, just that.
I'm also stating a fact.
Signature removed due to inappropriate content - CCP Falcon
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Natheniel
Mostly Sober The Bastard Cartel
0
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Posted - 2015.05.22 18:10:42 -
[119] - Quote
Aria - some times people need to meet the devil to know his name. If they don't want to see it, showing them again will not change anything. If anything humans are resilant. I believe in both sides to pull through this intact. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4865
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Posted - 2015.05.22 18:19:54 -
[120] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:I'm also stating a fact. You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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