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Jacid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2015.05.28 00:36:46 -
[1] - Quote
Despite all of the proposed changes to null sec including jump fatigue and a host of other planned changes the simple truth is that the blue doughnut still exists. It exists because game mechanics for large null sec alliances promote a fortress play style. It does this by making the resources (moon goo and sec status) essentially static locations thereby making it beneficial for large null sec blocks to capture and retain these resources for long term areas.
If you want to solve the blue doughnut problem and make eve more fun in null sec play have moon resources and security status depletable depending on usage.
By making moon sources depletable you create an environment which in order to stay ahead a null sec alliance needs to be constantly searching for new top tier moons to stay funded. The number of moons producing resources wouldn't change but once a resource was depleted from one planet it would move to an unoccupied planet or a planet that had previously been mined out of resources and essentially had a resource slot open. An initial time for depletation would be 4-6 months but this could be increased to decreased for better game play.
Depleting security status basically runs along the same though processes. Killing rats and mining in a location should decreases security status of a system. This creates the incentive for corporations to search out new space over time to rat and mine from. This could be countered by upgrading a system with sovereignty structures and stations. It could be argued that a station or system upgrades would put floor on security status for which the security status wouldn't drop below. On the other hand unused systems could generate security driving people to farm those systems. All security gains and losses would be over the course of weeks and months.
Making these changes would motivate null sec alliance to capture short term gains because funding would be less assured. This would lead to a more confrontational environment in the null sec blocks without giving too much power to any one alliance.
TL:DR
Move moon resources around so that alliances will have to actively hunt and fight for resources
Move security status around so that all space becomes valuable. Which make alliances less entrench as they search for better sov
This in turn leads to a more dynamic null sec and reduces the incentive to have a fortress play style.
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Daoden
The Scope Gallente Federation
101
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:03:29 -
[2] - Quote
The idea in this game is if someone else has what you want TAKE IT FROM THEM. If you cant take it from them that's your problem. If the moon goo wasn't a static source why would any one fight over the moon goo? they wouldn't, they would in fact bunker down even more and wait for it to cycle to their system. your idea doesn't change much of they dynamics other then who happens to have access to certain kinds of moon goo.
The fact is if you want people to actively hunt and fight for resources you make it so that these resource are static like they are, other wise why would I risk hundreds of billions in ISK for 1 months worth or moon goo.
-1 |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3408
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:15:12 -
[3] - Quote
I take it you want to see ishtars costing double or treble what they currently are then? (Hint: If you nuke the supply of the materials required for T2 production, you're going to send the price through the roof)
Where, in your proposal, is the incentive to actually live in nullsec? You want to punish us for doing so, yet offer nothing at all in return, which does nothing but encourage people to move out.
I suppose it's one way to encourage more people to move to FW, wormholes or incursions, but it's certainly not going to create a dynamic nullsec. If you want more action out here, you need to encourage people to use the space they hold, not punish them for doing so.
I also assume that you've never fought in a sov war? The resource and time commitments involved are not small, certainly not something anyone wants to be doing day in, day out.
I also assume that ytou haven't been keeping up with current events in null? How can you claim there's a blue donut when there is one bloc left, which has shed multiple regions, and a good half to two thirds of the map is wide open?
http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png
Compare this with the one from six months ago
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/verite/20150101.png
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Jacid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:54:07 -
[4] - Quote
Daoden wrote:The idea in this game is if someone else has what you want TAKE IT FROM THEM. If you cant take it from them that's your problem. If the moon goo wasn't a static source why would any one fight over the moon goo? they wouldn't, they would in fact bunker down even more and wait for it to cycle to their system. your idea doesn't change much of they dynamics other then who happens to have access to certain kinds of moon goo.
The fact is if you want people to actively hunt and fight for resources you make it so that these resource are static like they are, other wise why would I risk hundreds of billions in ISK for 1 months worth or moon goo.
-1
Its a valid concern we all want people to have incentive to take stuff from others however resources shouldn't be an infinite supply that allows a large null sec alliance to entrench themselves and make that resource next to impossible to capture. To answer your question people would fight for moon goo when the resources expended would be less than the resources capture, Which could be found out by probing the moon. I imagine a 4-6 month window for moons but really this time would need tweeking depending on how much additional conflict was generated by longer term moons vers short term moons...
As to bunkering down waiting for it to cycle to their system their is no sure fire way to assume that a more valuable moon goo would come into your system as such alliances would consistently be on the hunt for rare moons.
This wouldn't be a simple form of taking from large alliances and giving to poor alliances.. Large alliances would still have the benefit of numbers and resources in finding, establishing, and defending high value resources. However they would need to put more effort into maintaining their level of income. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1840
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:00:06 -
[5] - Quote
Jacid wrote:Daoden wrote:The idea in this game is if someone else has what you want TAKE IT FROM THEM. If you cant take it from them that's your problem. If the moon goo wasn't a static source why would any one fight over the moon goo? they wouldn't, they would in fact bunker down even more and wait for it to cycle to their system. your idea doesn't change much of they dynamics other then who happens to have access to certain kinds of moon goo.
The fact is if you want people to actively hunt and fight for resources you make it so that these resource are static like they are, other wise why would I risk hundreds of billions in ISK for 1 months worth or moon goo.
-1 Its a valid concern we all want people to have incentive to take stuff from others however resources shouldn't be an infinite supply that allows a large null sec alliance to entrench themselves and make that resource next to impossible to capture. To answer your question people would fight for moon goo when the resources expended would be less than the resources capture, Which could be found out by probing the moon. I imagine a 4-6 month window for moons but really this time would need tweeking depending on how much additional conflict was generated by longer term moons vers short term moons... As to bunkering down waiting for it to cycle to their system their is no sure fire way to assume that a more valuable moon goo would come into your system as such alliances would consistently be on the hunt for rare moons. This wouldn't be a simple form of taking from large alliances and giving to poor alliances.. Large alliances would still have the benefit of numbers and resources in finding, establishing, and defending high value resources. However they would need to put more effort into maintaining their level of income.
Did you ever put in the effort of establishing stuff like jump bridge network? Do you understand thoses tuff would have to be moved around every single time moon deplete because the new R64 might be the one with the tower for the jump bridge? Or the reaction farm, or the tower used to protect supers, or whatever else can be done with towers.
Nah I supposed you just though "X would be cool" without thinking of all it actually involve to do such thing... |
Jacid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 02:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Daoden wrote: Did you ever put in the effort of establishing stuff like jump bridge network? Do you understand thoses tuff would have to be moved around every single time moon deplete because the new R64 might be the one with the tower for the jump bridge? Or the reaction farm, or the tower used to protect supers, or whatever else can be done with towers.
Nah I supposed you just though "X would be cool" without thinking of all it actually involve to do such thing...
This actually was in part the reason why the resources would move around so that it would require effort to entrench moons and keep it. It would generate conflict and in eve conflict is good.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1004
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Posted - 2015.05.28 03:51:21 -
[7] - Quote
Not sure why a forum alt's opinion on sov null matters, but I'll bite. Look at the map. Show me where the blue donut is today...
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
68
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Posted - 2015.05.28 05:20:17 -
[8] - Quote
All I read was "I want more expensive T2 ships/mods and logistics I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!"
But alas, any mechanic that forces warfare and relocation will in the end fall upon those who handle these logistics. It's well known that logistic pilots make the content for everyone else. But anything that makes such a task constant... that's not fun for anyone honestly.
This "blue doughnut," by which you actually mean coalitions, is caused simply because of power in numbers. No mechanic can be implemented that goes against this except for adding diminishing returns (DR) to damage/repair module's application and power. Which has NO place in EVE, which means power in numbers will always remain dominant. Even with a DR, all that forces is multiple target callers. So again, not a valid option.
In the end you will never actually break up friendships within the game's leadership, you can only hope to test those friendships by introducing a mechanic(s) that act to dangle a carrot to their members. Which typically means it would need to be tied to some sort of NPC action or spawn which remains until contested then moves randomly.
Example (not exactly serious): Incursion type-event which spawns within a single region until the previous one is subverted.
-Lore can write it off as that faction's leaders training and gathering forces to move in on the weakened empire or launch a counter offensive on the drifter threat themselves. -The event is endless unless all their capital production facilities are destroyed. -Several static and non-respawning production facilities would appear around the region to be targeted by opposing forces (or the inhabitants of the region) -Upon destruction a new region will be selected and the event will begin anew within a short period of time.
While these exist: -Higher level combat sites will appear within the region offering larger rewards -Increased data/relic site spawn rate -Increased ore availability -Increased faction and officer spawns
Line members will want to fight to have and hold these events within their region. Players must move to contest other regions, while their actual home systems are less likely to exchange hands outside of typical sov warfare. Still a lot of logistics, but not a complete relocation nightmare. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
718
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Posted - 2015.05.28 06:31:14 -
[9] - Quote
Moons don't need to move. Bottlenecks in blueprints can be.
Dyspro -> Tech -> Dyspro
Full circle, EVE IS SAVED!
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
134
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 09:12:12 -
[10] - Quote
Jacid wrote: It exists because game mechanics for large null sec alliances promote a fortress play style. It does this by making the resources (moon goo and sec status) essentially static locations thereby making it beneficial for large null sec blocks to capture and retain these resources for long term areas.
If you want to solve the blue doughnut problem and make eve more fun in null sec play have moon resources and security status depletable depending on usage.
When you occupy an areas it is a long term plan to build up the infrastructure, supply chain, the stations and so on. You don't really want to disassemble all structures, repackage them (if possible), move them across the univers and then build them up again.
Before thinking about new ideas I would wait how FozziSov (c) will change the game.
So for now: no
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
197
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Posted - 2015.05.28 11:29:57 -
[11] - Quote
Daoden wrote:The idea in this game is if someone else has what you want TAKE IT FROM THEM. If you cant take it from them that's your problem. If the moon goo wasn't a static source why would any one fight over the moon goo? they wouldn't, they would in fact bunker down even more and wait for it to cycle to their system. your idea doesn't change much of they dynamics other then who happens to have access to certain kinds of moon goo.
The fact is if you want people to actively hunt and fight for resources you make it so that these resource are static like they are, other wise why would I risk hundreds of billions in ISK for 1 months worth or moon goo.
-1
Nobody fights over moon goo, it's been split between blue donutees since forever.
+1
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1841
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Posted - 2015.05.28 12:24:18 -
[12] - Quote
Jacid wrote:Daoden wrote: Did you ever put in the effort of establishing stuff like jump bridge network? Do you understand thoses tuff would have to be moved around every single time moon deplete because the new R64 might be the one with the tower for the jump bridge? Or the reaction farm, or the tower used to protect supers, or whatever else can be done with towers.
Nah I supposed you just though "X would be cool" without thinking of all it actually involve to do such thing... This actually was in part the reason why the resources would move around so that it would require effort to entrench moons and keep it. It would generate conflict and in eve conflict is good.
Why would you fight for a moon that might be worthless 2 week down the line before it even payed back the ship loses you incurred conquering said moon? Are people supposed to know in advance when moons will deplete? Are they suppose to blind siege moon in hope there is at least a few week worth of material left in there before the next "reset"? |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
628
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Posted - 2015.05.28 12:32:12 -
[13] - Quote
There is more genuine conflict in nullsec right now than at any time in the past two years. I'd say CCP is, thus far, on the right track.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1050
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Posted - 2015.05.28 13:29:25 -
[14] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jacid wrote:Daoden wrote: Did you ever put in the effort of establishing stuff like jump bridge network? Do you understand thoses tuff would have to be moved around every single time moon deplete because the new R64 might be the one with the tower for the jump bridge? Or the reaction farm, or the tower used to protect supers, or whatever else can be done with towers.
Nah I supposed you just though "X would be cool" without thinking of all it actually involve to do such thing... This actually was in part the reason why the resources would move around so that it would require effort to entrench moons and keep it. It would generate conflict and in eve conflict is good. Why would you fight for a moon that might be worthless 2 week down the line before it even payed back the ship loses you incurred conquering said moon? Are people supposed to know in advance when moons will deplete? Are they suppose to blind siege moon in hope there is at least a few week worth of material left in there before the next "reset"?
Moon goo really needs to move. The concept of a large static passive isk faucet sucks the fun out of eve at every server tick.
Why would you fight for a moon that might be worthless in 2 weeks?? Here's where your logic foul comes into play. You're stuck in the current rut that ALL the high end moon goo NEEDS to be controlled by one or two large groups. It would cause a shift in moon goo at a very basic level.
Here's the idea. Moon goo gets depleted after some interval of mining. That would be based on some preset timer (for time I'd suggest 8 - 12 months until depleted - would vary, but long enough to get some stable use out of it). Whatever the time - it periodically moves. There would be no data dump available that would reveal the locations of the various moon goo deposits. If you want them - you have to interact with the game and scan the moons.
1. Here's what would happen: System owners would scan their systems periodically looking to hit the jackpot. That could be weekly/daily/monthly - the interval would be up to the guy scanning the moon. JACKPOT - a guy finds a newly discovered high end deposit. He's got some options. a) keep it quiet and reap personal profits b) tell his corp/alliance and make it a group asset (this could be an alliance / corp requirement) c) he stupidly reports it to some coallition overlord so they can roll in and loot the asset from his system. (dumb) Would the spice..... er goo still flow? Of course. It's just handled at a level chosen by the grunt that scanned down the moon. It would give null owners and additional reason to log in and actually do something in eve (in lieu of playing mech warrior online and monitor eve for a ping of importance).
2. Here's what wouldn't happen: A few large groups wouldn't be able to lock down a passive source of income via the blob. There are just too many moons in eve for 8 guys to keep track of. You said it yourself - It wouldn't be worth the risk/effort to mobilize 5000 guys to take over and hold a single moon goo resource that would pack up and move in a few months all on its own.
3. Here's what else wouldn't happen. T2 prices wouldn't quadrupliply. It would no longer by managed by a 2 or 3 dude monopoly. Competition would break out. No more price controls. The slim profit margin that rests at the buy and build level for t2 ships would move back to the high end moon goo level of the process. Just as invention broke the t2 BPO monopoly and dropped the price of a hulk from 600 mil to it's current values - T2 prices would drop (to a lesser extent) as the goo monopoly was removed.
4. Here's who should be against nonstatic moon goo. The small portion of characters that make insane profits off of it. The somewhat larger group of pilots that use it to fuel SRP and other things on the corp / alliance level. Taking this static free isk faucet away will totally ruin the way eve is played by a few individuals.
5. Here's who should be all for nonstatic moon goo - everyone that isn't one of the small group of guys in #4 above.
Again, moon goo won't cease to flow. It just won't be easily controlled by a sellect few. It will just be handled at a lower level.
To the OP. Moon goo has a minor at best effect on space buddies online. They are coalitioned up and blue donutted up to minimize risk to their eve way of life. That's about maintaining stability and controlling the masses. Sure it's a straw for the camel's back, but don't expect moving moon goo around to stand alone and break the donut. Breaking that will have to be the summation of manyseveral things. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
302
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Posted - 2015.05.28 13:54:37 -
[15] - Quote
What I see here is another half baked idea on how and why the sov changes (not fully implemented yet by the way) are not working.
CCP has a plan for nul, and for now we as players need to accept that nul will be in a state of chaos and confusion until all of those sov changes are implemented. After they are and the players have had some time to adapt to the new reality of nul, then and only then can we call for more changes.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1841
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 14:04:32 -
[16] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Moon goo really needs to move. The concept of a large static passive isk faucet sucks the fun out of eve at every server tick.
If at least you understood what an ISK faucet is...
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Why would you fight for a moon that might be worthless in 2 weeks?? Here's where your logic foul comes into play. You're stuck in the current rut that ALL the high end moon goo NEEDS to be controlled by one or two large groups. It would cause a shift in moon goo at a very basic level.
No matter how many people control it, if you can't know for how long you can keep it at it's current projected level of profit, you won't siege it. If it's material change 3 days down the line, you will be stuck having sieged a useless moon. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1051
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Posted - 2015.05.28 14:57:06 -
[17] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
Moon goo really needs to move. The concept of a large static passive isk faucet sucks the fun out of eve at every server tick.
If at least you understood what an ISK faucet is... Serendipity Lost wrote:
Why would you fight for a moon that might be worthless in 2 weeks?? Here's where your logic foul comes into play. You're stuck in the current rut that ALL the high end moon goo NEEDS to be controlled by one or two large groups. It would cause a shift in moon goo at a very basic level.
No matter how many people control it, if you can't know for how long you can keep it at it's current projected level of profit, you won't siege it. If it's material change 3 days down the line, you will be stuck having sieged a useless moon.
In the first part. I know a good deal about the moon goo market. You could almost say I'm pissing on my own shoes with this proposed change. You writing me off as a know nothing certainly does not make it true. I love the game. I love the change that is going on in null as we speak. Thinking is changing. The perception of 'nomal' is changing in some interesting ways. Some things that are currently 'normal' are not good for the long term health of the game. I'd like to be playing eve 10 years from now. I'm one of the nutty ones that wants to be playing eve in 10 years. I don't want to subscribe to eve, play another game and occaisionally pop back into eve for an event of interest here and there.
In the second part. You're still dealing with the concept of conrolling it. I'm saying you need to let go of the idea of controlling moon goo. We don't need to control it. We've had a good run - I feel its time to aknowledge we had a good run and leave it go. For the long term good of eve it's time to let it become like every other asset in eve. Releasing moon goo back to the masses and by this I mean getting it out from under the shadow of the big blob is the right thing to do. Individuals and small groups will pick it up and deal with it as the market demands. Long term stagnant control will be gone. Let's be honest here - the last thing the entities currently controlling moon goo want is for the greater eve to start fighting over it and the thing the want even less than that is for CCP to release it to the general population - that's only common sense. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1841
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 15:13:53 -
[18] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
Moon goo really needs to move. The concept of a large static passive isk faucet sucks the fun out of eve at every server tick.
If at least you understood what an ISK faucet is... Serendipity Lost wrote:
Why would you fight for a moon that might be worthless in 2 weeks?? Here's where your logic foul comes into play. You're stuck in the current rut that ALL the high end moon goo NEEDS to be controlled by one or two large groups. It would cause a shift in moon goo at a very basic level.
No matter how many people control it, if you can't know for how long you can keep it at it's current projected level of profit, you won't siege it. If it's material change 3 days down the line, you will be stuck having sieged a useless moon. In the first part. I know a good deal about the moon goo market. You could almost say I'm pissing on my own shoes with this proposed change. You writing me off as a know nothing certainly does not make it true. I love the game. I love the change that is going on in null as we speak. Thinking is changing. The perception of 'nomal' is changing in some interesting ways. Some things that are currently 'normal' are not good for the long term health of the game. I'd like to be playing eve 10 years from now. I'm one of the nutty ones that wants to be playing eve in 10 years. I don't want to subscribe to eve, play another game and occaisionally pop back into eve for an event of interest here and there. In the second part. You're still dealing with the concept of conrolling it. I'm saying you need to let go of the idea of controlling moon goo. We don't need to control it. We've had a good run - I feel its time to aknowledge we had a good run and leave it go. For the long term good of eve it's time to let it become like every other asset in eve. Releasing moon goo back to the masses and by this I mean getting it out from under the shadow of the big blob is the right thing to do. Individuals and small groups will pick it up and deal with it as the market demands. Long term stagnant control will be gone. Let's be honest here - the last thing the entities currently controlling moon goo want is for the greater eve to start fighting over it and the thing the want even less than that is for CCP to release it to the general population - that's only common sense.
Can't wait for all the content created by corp/alliance operations with negative ROI...
GJ guys, the loss of 3 bill in ships to conquer that moon now enable us to farm it for the hmmmmm... 2 bill worth of ressources still in it. Don't worry about the value of the tower not being included or the upkeep to keep it running.
This will be great. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
197
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Posted - 2015.05.28 15:53:34 -
[19] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Can't wait for all the content created by corp/alliance operations with negative ROI...
GJ guys, the loss of 3 bill in ships to conquer that moon now enable us to farm it for the hmmmmm... 2 bill worth of ressources still in it. Don't worry about the value of the tower not being included or the upkeep to keep it running.
This will be great.
"Bawwww some moons will be less worth so the whole concept is bad". With a moon lasting 8 weeks the chance to get onto the last 3 days worth of resource is about 5%. HTFU.
As if ANY war right now (fountain snafu aside) is about moons. Dem bluedonutees crying...
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2443
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Posted - 2015.05.28 16:22:55 -
[20] - Quote
so, in summary:
alliances wont fight for moons if they stand still but they will definitely move if it moves around randomly.
Using your space and fighting to protect it devalues it.
Also, youre a few games patches too late, blue dont already got its chunks bitten off. |
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1051
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Posted - 2015.05.28 16:52:59 -
[21] - Quote
I think some good data points would be how much each type of moon is actually worth per month as of right now. Are there any spreadsheet nerds (I say that with respect and jealousy) that can whoop up a nice little table?
I think we need a bit of perspective on Frostys losing 3 bil in ships for 2 bil worth of resources. I think it best for all if we understand what 2 bil worth of resources means in relation to goo production time.
It would be awesome if you could make the following columns:
| goo type | goo value / unit | goo value per month |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2506
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Posted - 2015.05.28 17:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jacid wrote:Despite all of the proposed changes to null sec including jump fatigue and a host of other planned changes the simple truth is that the blue doughnut still exists.
Encouraging groups to focus their activity in a smaller area for safety (fortress playstyle) clearly did not cause the blue donut. The sov changes arent in place or even fully announced yet and the various null powers have; consolidated, retreated, crumbled, re-emerged or abandoned sov holding completely. Sov is very much shaken up relative to the past few years, that much is obvious.
That said, non-static resources sounds more fun. Its something i enjoy in WH's and its something i'd like more of in other areas of space. This doesnt necessarily mean having to become nomadic (though you could do) or going 20 jumps for what you are looking for, but i find it fun when a group has to; explore, scout, hunt, compete, defend and basically forage for their paycheck.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Iain Cariaba
1455
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Posted - 2015.05.28 17:24:59 -
[23] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Can't wait for all the content created by corp/alliance operations with negative ROI...
GJ guys, the loss of 3 bill in ships to conquer that moon now enable us to farm it for the hmmmmm... 2 bill worth of ressources still in it. Don't worry about the value of the tower not being included or the upkeep to keep it running.
This will be great.
"Bawwww some moons will be less worth so the whole concept is bad". With a moon lasting 8 weeks the chance to get onto the last 3 days worth of resource is about 5%. HTFU. As if ANY war right now (fountain snafu aside) is about moons. Dem bluedonutees crying... Wow, really? I wonder what all those POSes over r64 moons I keep reinforcing and defending are really for then, if not fighting over control of moons...
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1841
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Posted - 2015.05.28 19:08:40 -
[24] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Can't wait for all the content created by corp/alliance operations with negative ROI...
GJ guys, the loss of 3 bill in ships to conquer that moon now enable us to farm it for the hmmmmm... 2 bill worth of ressources still in it. Don't worry about the value of the tower not being included or the upkeep to keep it running.
This will be great.
"Bawwww some moons will be less worth so the whole concept is bad". With a moon lasting 8 weeks the chance to get onto the last 3 days worth of resource is about 5%. HTFU. As if ANY war right now (fountain snafu aside) is about moons. Dem bluedonutees crying... Wow, really? I wonder what all those POSes over r64 moons I keep reinforcing and defending are really for then, if not fighting over control of moons...
Obviously your overlord is tricking you and you are bashing POS on useless moon in an effort to keep you entertained with "content" while they keep making mad ISK off the real money mooons. You know, the one that never get targetted.
The complete map of the moon distribution were distributed at the BBQ. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1841
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 19:16:15 -
[25] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I think some good data points would be how much each type of moon is actually worth per month as of right now. Are there any spreadsheet nerds (I say that with respect and jealousy) that can whoop up a nice little table?
I think we need a bit of perspective on Frostys losing 3 bil in ships for 2 bil worth of resources. I think it best for all if we understand what 2 bil worth of resources means in relation to goo production time.
It would be awesome if you could make the following columns:
| goo type | goo value / unit | goo value per month |
Rapid math if I didn't mess up something gives about 1,5bill a week for Dysprosium at current price.
93,866.6 per unit (sell order price)
100 unit per hour (fixed value)
9,388,660.00 per hour
225,327,840.00 per day
1,577,294,880.00 per week
Not included of course is the sunk cost of the tower and assorted modules and the fuel blocks to run the tower.
If the math is wrong, please tell me why so I can get a better idea of what a moon is worth. |
Sigras
Conglomo
1027
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 19:42:36 -
[26] - Quote
Does anyone here remember a long time ago when people used to fight over static 10/10 complexes?
They make them randomly spawn and instantly they were removed as a consideration for driving conflict in 0.0
If I tell you that you can make a potentially unlimited amount if you take X system, then you will spend a potentially unlimited amount of ISK trying to take it.
If I tell you that you can make at most 100 billion ISK if you take system X then no moron in their right mind would ever risk 100 billion ISK trying to take that system.
Also have you ever scanned a few thousand moons? It's really freaking annoying... Now imagine having to scan every moon in your space... every day... that is what you're proposing with this system...
A much better system is to make ring mining produce moon materials, and then allow moon miners to be disabled by small gangs by moving them outside the POS shield. This would allow you to disrupt the massive moon empires without completely destabilizing the economy |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
69
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 19:53:56 -
[27] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: If the math is wrong, please tell me why so I can get a better idea of what a moon is worth.
I'm not going to say your math is wrong, but you are forgetting the larger chunk of it actually. Most mined moon materials in null are actually used in reactions. Leftover material is typically stockpiled or hauled to empire. So to do the math correctly you'd actually have to include reactions which require said moon goo.
Fact is, even if moon goo moved randomly it would still have to be tied to a region otherwise you could sit in one place and expect to see every type of goo over time. What this would actually accomplish is actually a step back from what we have seen the mere ANNOUNCEMENT of fozziesov has created. Alliances would branch out more to insure they held and entire region(s) to insure when the goo did deplete and shift that they would have control of the new system. Towers would be on every moon offline waiting for that moon to be populated. And while I'm at it moon probing would have to changed significantly or removed entirely for this to even be worth it and not cause some massive depression in the market. You can have 100+ moons in a system, this means every moon not currently mining would have to be probed. Just think about that if you have ever actually had to probe an entire region of moons. Ya, nobody is going to do that willingly.
If you think this possibly puts the goo in the hands of the small corp, or individual I have news for you. All towers are on a corp level, corps can give rights to members, but it is, at it's heart, a corp level asset. Corps are a part of alliances, alliances have sov bills and SRP which players have come to be reliant upon so they don't have to spend hours grinding isk in a few non-cloaky camped systems to afford their doctrine ships. This means even IF moon goo left alliance hands and was handed off entirely to the corp level you can expect higher taxes, you like mining? Industry? Market trading? Expect API wallet audits to make sure you are properly contributing. Try to slip through the cracks? Expect a warning if your lucky, or a kick and find all your assets locked in now hostile stations.
There is literally nothing wrong with the current system. It is literally player's delusions of some massive isk generating machine that goes entirely to the alliance leadership. They never think about the actual costs: TCU - 20m/day IHUB -19m/day Cyno gen - 4m/day Cyno jammer - 25m/day Super cap production - 1m/day (I think) Bridges - 12.5m/day
That is per day, per system. And remember, bridges take 2 systems, the number I gave is per system. And that's not even looking at SRP which can rack up very quickly with a few careless FCs.
PS - For the love of all that is holy stop calling it an isk faucet. It just makes you look ******** as it generates no isk. It causes isk to exchange hands - typically from the alliance level to the solo players who are producing fuel blocks. For it to be an ISK FAUCET we would have to be generating isk from the moon itself. So please get informed, stew in those numbers a while, then try to present intelligent and informed design changes |
DaReaper
Net 7
2110
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 20:04:58 -
[28] - Quote
TL;DR
you are kinda on to something, but not really. Moon goo shoudl become active mining, but move around? No.
no one fights over moons, there really is no point when you cna just strike a deal to not take others moons.
Making moons become active mined, either via a drilling platform that shoots chunks in space you need to mine, or adding T2 ore to roid belts you need to mine, or comets, or new anomalies, would be far better smaller conflict drivers then moons moving.
The logistics alone would cause most alliances to quit playing eve.
This idea is as bad as the 'finite reources' idea, where as belts mine out they don;t respawn, which doenslt work in an online mmo.
The basic idea is decent, the execution and your reasons for the idea are flawed and incorrect.
-1
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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DaReaper
Net 7
2110
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 20:08:58 -
[29] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Does anyone here remember a long time ago when people used to fight over static 10/10 complexes?
They make them randomly spawn and instantly they were removed as a consideration for driving conflict in 0.0
If I tell you that you can make a potentially unlimited amount if you take X system, then you will spend a potentially unlimited amount of ISK trying to take it.
If I tell you that you can make at most 100 billion ISK if you take system X then no moron in their right mind would ever risk 100 billion ISK trying to take that system.
Also have you ever scanned a few thousand moons? It's really freaking annoying... Now imagine having to scan every moon in your space... every day... that is what you're proposing with this system...
A much better system is to make ring mining produce moon materials, and then allow moon miners to be disabled by small gangs by moving them outside the POS shield. This would allow you to disrupt the massive moon empires without completely destabilizing the economy
except they didn't. They complex's were farmed by the people who owned them. And at the time, BoB, ASCN, and other groups formed packs to not mess with others complexs. It was a flase conflict driver.
Moons stopped being fought over a long time ago as well. Goons did not attack BoB because bob has moons. BoB did not kill ASCN for ASCN's moons. Some small battles happened over moons, but large conflicts happened for more human reasons.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
|
Sigras
Conglomo
1028
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 00:31:27 -
[30] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Sigras wrote:Does anyone here remember a long time ago when people used to fight over static 10/10 complexes?
They make them randomly spawn and instantly they were removed as a consideration for driving conflict in 0.0
If I tell you that you can make a potentially unlimited amount if you take X system, then you will spend a potentially unlimited amount of ISK trying to take it.
If I tell you that you can make at most 100 billion ISK if you take system X then no moron in their right mind would ever risk 100 billion ISK trying to take that system. except they didn't. They complex's were farmed by the people who owned them. And at the time, BoB, ASCN, and other groups formed packs to not mess with others complexs. It was a flase conflict driver. Moons stopped being fought over a long time ago as well. Goons did not attack BoB because bob has moons. BoB did not kill ASCN for ASCN's moons. Some small battles happened over moons, but large conflicts happened for more human reasons. Except they did, you're just thinking too narrowly... When BoB held that space, they were resented by all of Eve because they held the best space. Everyone knew it, and everyone knew it was because of their moons and their 10/10s... and like it or not it grated on everyone...
Goonswarm galvanized under the "we hate BoB" banner, and they gained powerful allies because of it.
If you're looking for a more recent example, how about when the CFC attacked Test alliance for their moons in fountain? ISK is the prime mover in this universe, and anyone who tells you anything different is selling something.
Sigras wrote:Also have you ever scanned a few thousand moons? It's really freaking annoying... Now imagine having to scan every moon in your space... every day... that is what you're proposing with this system...
A much better system is to make ring mining produce moon materials, and then allow moon miners to be disabled by small gangs by moving them outside the POS shield. This would allow you to disrupt the massive moon empires without completely destabilizing the economy |
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