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Raeph Mikakka
RUBUL Academy
0
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Posted - 2015.05.29 13:51:44 -
[1] - Quote
I've been thinking for a while about the whole supercap problem, there's far more than originally intended and with so many big alliances that can afford to drop dozens of them at a time, how can the little guys get a look in?
This is a solution that's just come to me and I thought I'd post it up.
Cynosural fields have a bandwidth based on mass or size. Once the limit has been reached, the cyno can't be jumped to any more but stays "open", meaning the cyno ship can't just immediately open up another.
Of course the entity that's jumping a lot could bring several cyno ships, but it'd a) give the guys they're fighting a bit of a heads up about what's coming and b) take up pilots or slots in the ships that are there. Plus it'd make people think more about exit cynos and make it more effort to actually set up a drop.
Another similar idea would be to have it so that when you jump from system A to system B, the mini WH you create (assuming that's how jumps work in lore) can only support a certain mass/volume, meaning that you could only have a limited amount of ships jumping in a certain time limit between those two systems.
Again, there's ways around it, like having ships jumping from different systems, but again it'd make it harder to set up and the logistics would have to be more thought out.
The idea wouldn't be to kill supers or caps, just to give them some restrictions that meant they're not as easy to throw around and is more punishing to mistakes. So far I've seen a lot of ideas about how they jump, maybe how they land could be looked at too? |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
637
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Posted - 2015.05.29 14:02:01 -
[2] - Quote
This idea has come up before, but it's been a while, and given the more recent changes, I think it's good to address it again.
Frankly, between the range nerfs and the addition of jump fatigue, I don't see this as adding anything more to the game. At that point you're not nerfing force projection - you're punishing people for having more friends than you do. Does it suck to get hot dropped by 45 people? Hell yeah. Been there, done that, got the t-shirts. But that's Eve.
Additionally, this disproportinately hurts smaller entities who may not have the additional pilots for more cynos. Some would argue that the range nerf did the same thing, but it also forced the larger nullsec entities to contract some, so I think the smaller groups got more out of it than the may have lost.
This change, on the other hand, offers up no benefit to the smaller entity - the larger groups will bring more cyno ships to cover the nerf, while the smaller groups simply cannot, meaning they may not be able to field the numbers necessary to win the objective (whatever that is).
tl;dr: Jump movement is in a pretty good place at the moment. I don't think this is really necessary.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Raeph Mikakka
RUBUL Academy
0
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Posted - 2015.05.29 14:20:09 -
[3] - Quote
I don't really think the range and jump fatigue changes have done much to change how warfare works in null from what I've seen. It just changed the time scale and how ships are dedicated. I've been watching what's going on with provi at the moment and see dozens of NC. supers dropping into fights the same as they always have been able to, the only difference is that the bigger entities have to dedicate their forces more because they can't suddenly pull back to the other end of their space within a few minutes.
I'm surprised you think it'd hurt smaller entities than big ones. It'd do the opposite in my eyes.
A smaller entity that has less caps/supers won't need as many cynos or as much setup as larger organisations if what I suggested was implimented. Even if they needed multiple cynos, a cyno pilot is much easier to spare (let's be honest, the majority of people that fly caps and especially supers have cyno alts so a cap capable fleet should have plenty) but slowing down the rate that a larger fleet can blob a system with supers would be an advantage to the little guys.
As for "punishing" people for having more friends, that's not the intention but I do think that EVE is a game about numbers a little too much right now. With how I anticipate fozziesov going, that'll be even more the case when faster ships like ceptors that require less training become the ship of choice to fight over sov. I think blob entities that have hundreds of pilots they can call on with a few moments notice are likely to become more and more powerful while smaller corps, irrespective of skill or drive, just don't have the numbers to compete.
Thanks for the input, even though we disagree. :) |
Leto Aramaus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
122
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Posted - 2015.05.29 15:01:12 -
[4] - Quote
Elenahina wrote: Does it suck to get hot dropped by 45 people? Hell yeah. Been there, done that, got the t-shirts. But that's Eve.
I think the OP, ( and I agree) is saying that maybe that shouldn't "be EVE." Maybe that EVE, is a ****** EVE.
Elenahina wrote:Additionally, this disproportinately hurts smaller entities who may not have the additional pilots for more cynos. Some would argue that the range nerf did the same thing, but it also forced the larger nullsec entities to contract some, so I think the smaller groups got more out of it than the may have lost.
This change, on the other hand, offers up no benefit to the smaller entity - the larger groups will bring more cyno ships to cover the nerf, while the smaller groups simply cannot, meaning they may not be able to field the numbers necessary to win the objective (whatever that is).
I disagree. The smaller entities, in general, don't have 10+ supers to drop, so they wouldn't be affected by this change at all. If the "smaller" guys, for example, us in GalMil, are dropping dreads/carrier en masse, like more than 10 or 20 caps... well then we're no longer that small are we? I say its perfectly reasonable to require more cynos. If we can't field them, we can't jump all the caps in.
+1
That being said... I'm in support of substantial combat buffs to supers, to offset the jump nerfs (fatigue already + something like this if it happens).
The UI update we deserve
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Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
338
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Posted - 2015.05.29 15:47:47 -
[5] - Quote
I think before we address they way cyno's work we need to comprehensively re-balance supers first. That way the limited deployment mechanic suggested doesn't become a factor in deciding what they can and cant do in Modern EvE
Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1054
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Posted - 2015.05.29 16:08:20 -
[6] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:I think before we address they way cyno's work we need to comprehensively re-balance supers first. That way the limited deployment mechanic suggested doesn't become a factor in deciding what they can and cant do in Modern EvE
Because if I'm in a super I should be able to do everything all the time?
Attention all super pilots: sell those outdated pieces of junk while you can still get a return on your investment. If you've been playing eve long enough to fly a super then you've been playing eve long enough to see the end game for supers. Get your cash now, before it's too late.
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Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
339
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Posted - 2015.05.29 16:20:02 -
[7] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:I think before we address they way cyno's work we need to comprehensively re-balance supers first. That way the limited deployment mechanic suggested doesn't become a factor in deciding what they can and cant do in Modern EvE Because if I'm in a super I should be able to do everything all the time? Attention all super pilots: sell those outdated pieces of junk while you can still get a return on your investment. If you've been playing eve long enough to fly a super then you've been playing eve long enough to see the end game for supers. Get your cash now, before it's too late.
Supers will never be completely useless not so long as titan bridges are used to rapidly deploy or provide hotdrop content, doomsdays and fighter bombers are also integral parts of anti-capital warfare. Whether you dislike supers or not they're here to stay. The difference is with EvE shifting away from massive capital warfare to determine solely who will maintain or take a system the supers need a re-balance to stay relevant in the new modernized EvE. In no way should they do everything all the time, in no way did i suggest that. You simply bastardized my point rather drastically.
I envision supers filling roles in fleets no other ship can, just like command ships or scanners, they have unique hyper specialized but adaptable roles for fleets, supers merely need one of their own as DPS as a role in fleets has a backlog of resumes on the table a few dozen long.
Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
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Raeph Mikakka
RUBUL Academy
0
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Posted - 2015.05.29 16:52:33 -
[8] - Quote
Appreciating the input guys, whether it's in agreement or critical. :)
I think something like this would be part of the super rebalancing, not with or against it and could be taken into account while they're potentially being rebalanced. It's tweakable too, by changing the limitation on mass/volume you can limit the amount of ships that can pass through before the cyno stops working, meaning that if or when further balancing comes in, it wouldn't be a huge issue to change the numbers.
Another thing that just occurred to me about this idea though that (IMO) strengthens it even more is that since the limiting factor happens in the "receiving" system, it'd work effectively with tidi. Currently since the receiving system is slowed, it gives anything jumping into the system effectively more time to get there. If a fleet is relying on more cynos in position, then they'll have more of an issue getting those cynos to where they're needed. At the moment, tidi actually favours the bigger fleet that will have more time to get reinforcements into jump range.
Bottlenecking the way supers move around in a way that doesn't affect caps or subcaps so much would mean that as they're slower to get on field, the first ones there would be more vulnerable while they wait for reinforcements. Also some thought would need to be put into extraction again rather than one guy waiting with a cyno. That would (hopefully) mean that supers aren't thrown around quite as casually as they are at the moment. Jumping a super into a red cap fleet without making sure that you're set up properly would be riskier.
But none of it would affect the core gameplay. Nothing's specifically getting nerfed or buffed, one super before would still be as powerful as one super after. It'd just mean that the guys that can send out a ping and get 50 supers online within minutes currently would be slowed in their response time. Not only directly because of my suggested changes, but because they'd need to make sure that multiple cynos are in place. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
471
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Posted - 2015.05.29 17:54:34 -
[9] - Quote
The most I would like to see is a certain amount of cap being used off the cynoing ship based off of mass when a ship jumps to it. This could make neuts a good counter to getting hotdropped (And cap batteries could have a bit more use), but the fleet jumping in could counter this by having the first few people through have cap transfers for the cyno ship to let the rest of the fleet through.
But would this really be needed with all the recent jump changes that have been made?
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1006
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Posted - 2015.05.29 18:58:51 -
[10] - Quote
This is an unnecessary limitation and one that will ultimately just be irritating for all concerned.
I believe that some Eve players are still hung up on what happened last year or the year before, and have not quite absorbed how different Eve is post-Phoebe, and will be post-FozzieSov.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1006
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Posted - 2015.05.29 18:59:46 -
[11] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:I think before we address they way cyno's work we need to comprehensively re-balance supers first. That way the limited deployment mechanic suggested doesn't become a factor in deciding what they can and cant do in Modern EvE Because if I'm in a super I should be able to do everything all the time? Attention all super pilots: sell those outdated pieces of junk while you can still get a return on your investment. If you've been playing eve long enough to fly a super then you've been playing eve long enough to see the end game for supers. Get your cash now, before it's too late.
WTS, 2x Avatars!
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2962
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Posted - 2015.05.29 19:08:53 -
[12] - Quote
Your "solution" will get sidestepped by the use of multiple cynos as opposed to singular cynos.
More over, just decoupling the need to jump to a cyno beacon (allowing caps to jump themselves with a margin of error, thus splitting up incoming capital forces across multiple grids as opposed to a range of 100km given bumping mechanics) will go a much further way to being a real impact-full change.
That being said, your problem is that you (or the people you represent) are space poor and you don't have supers. Which isn't a problem that a nerf bat should be fixing to begin with.....
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
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Alexis Nightwish
218
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Posted - 2015.05.29 22:10:43 -
[13] - Quote
I hate cyno mechanics, but the OP will do nothing more than inconvenience larger groups. If one cyno lets 10 supers through do you think such a group, on that can field large numbers of supers, would even hesitate to bring more cyno alts? Even if the cyno only let 2 supers, they'd still just bring more alts.
IMO the biggest problem with cyno mechanics is the lack of counterplay. The cyno alt warps in or decloaks, hits the button, and abunch of **** arrives seconds later. Cyno ships can easily be over 100k EHP, so killing them isn't viable. So what can you do to counter them? Run or counterdrop. Running sucks, and I think it's safe to say that N+1 (counterdropping) being the only real counter isn't healthy for the game.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Raeph Mikakka
RUBUL Academy
0
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Posted - 2015.05.29 23:10:35 -
[14] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I believe that some Eve players are still hung up on what happened last year or the year before, and have not quite absorbed how different Eve is post-Phoebe, and will be post-FozzieSov.
Not at all, I actually really don't like what fozziesov is bringing to the table. To me, blobs is not a fun way to play (either with or against, and I've done both) and I see fozziesov just making frig blobs more effective in sov war. Corps that rely on numbers that are already insanely powerful and will become even more powerful once those 200 atrons actually become a meaningful fleet in a sov war instead of just fodder.
Asuka Solo wrote:That being said, your problem is that you (or the people you represent) are space poor and you don't have supers. Which isn't a problem that a nerf bat should be fixing to begin with.....
What an odd statement. That's not true at all.
Firstly I'm in a group of corps that has about 50 members total, if every one of us had a super, it still wouldn't add up to the numbers of supers alone that the entities I'm trying to suggest a counter to can muster within a few minutes.
Secondly supers aren't that expensive. I could go from broke to a super in far less time than it'd take to train one. If I put in the hours, I could own one in less than a month. I'm sure people that are into trading or industry could be even faster. Though you're right about on an alliance level, smaller alliances that are poorer can't compete with the larger ones.
Alexis Nightwish wrote:but the OP will do nothing more than inconvenience larger groups
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. What I propose isn't "OMFGWTFBBQ BREAK ALL THE SUPERS!!one", it's aimed at making them less convenient and at slightly more risk due to some thought being needed in how to get them in and out. I think the N+1 mechanic will always be a part of any game that doesn't have limited team sizes, but Eve isn't N+1 at the moment, it's N+200. I agree with you on counterplay but I'm not sure what mechanic could fix that. I've thought about the idea of a spool up timer on the cyno, but that would just help the winning fleet win even harder rather than bring things more into balance.
Supers aren't just random ships that you undock and then go roam in, they're big ships with thousands of crew members. It would make sense for some actual logistical work being needed to move them about rather than just "cyno lit, bam 50 supers on field 2 minutes after the ping went out".
Eve's not fair and the big dog will always eat the little one in the end, but the little one should be able to get a few bites in first. :) |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3424
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Posted - 2015.05.29 23:20:02 -
[15] - Quote
So the first wave is carriers with cynos, and nothing changes at all?
Except, of course, YET ANOTHER kick in the teeth for classes of ships that don't really have a purpose anymore. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
304
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Posted - 2015.05.30 14:14:02 -
[16] - Quote
At this point in time I am neither for or against this idea. Based on arguments presented on both sides I can see where each has some valid points. But in the end I still come back to what I have been saying for months regarding changes to anything that may affect sov and nul sec play in general. Let CCP fully implement the sov changes and everything related to that. Once they have and the players have had a period of time to adjust to the new reality then we can come back and revisits ideas like this and discuss potential changes based on how things HAVE changed, instead of speculation of what they MIGHT become. |
Comrade Rabbit
Warp Vapor inspiration
0
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Posted - 2015.06.02 02:11:59 -
[17] - Quote
I just do not see the benefit in game play from this with a carrier able to fit off another carrier or drop a depot to attach another cyno. A lot of carrier's still fit cynos after the initial one dies quickly. |
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