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LT Alter
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
175
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:43:32 -
[1] - Quote
I feel that a good change to help nerf the extensive use of supercarriers in lowsec would be to make them more dangerous to use in lowsec. Right now they can be jumped in en masse with incredibly low risk. To make it more dangerous to use them in lowsec, I feel that Heavy Interdictors should get this role bonus "Immune to indirect electronic warfare."
Basically make them immune to ecm bursts, but they remain vulnerable to all other forms of electronic warfare. It's a small change that may not change things very much, but I feel it is a move in the right direction. |
Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
387
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:45:13 -
[2] - Quote
I feel like that would be a nightmare to code in, but increasing their base sensor strength might help.
GÖú Theory-Crafter GÖú Free Agent GÖú Immortal Space Pirate GÖú "Better the Devil you Know than the devil you don't" -Observing and dismantling F&I Discussion Threads since 2013Gäó
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LT Alter
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
175
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:47:30 -
[3] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:I feel like that would be a nightmare to code in, but increasing their base sensor strength might help.
I don't see why it would be very hard to code in, drones are already immune to untargeted EW but are still vulnerable to targeted EW. so it's definitely not impossible. |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
432
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Posted - 2015.06.04 22:13:28 -
[4] - Quote
You mean to stop all those supercapitals that are dying every day when they get HILARIOUSLY dunked on by Rekking Krew, Lowsec Shup[jgruhgiug (spelling??) and their equivalents? |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
208
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Posted - 2015.06.04 22:57:25 -
[5] - Quote
What's wrong with SC in low sec? I don't see them use in masses. The spike of sc loses was only due to increase of their movements prior Entosis Link era. |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
254
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Posted - 2015.06.05 01:25:49 -
[6] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:I feel that a good change to help nerf the extensive use of supercarriers in lowsec would be to make them more dangerous to use in lowsec. Right now they can be jumped in en masse with incredibly low risk. To make it more dangerous to use them in lowsec, I feel that Heavy Interdictors should get this role bonus "Immune to indirect electronic warfare."
Basically make them immune to ecm bursts, but they remain vulnerable to all other forms of electronic warfare. It's a small change that certainly doesn't fix the entire problem, but I feel it is a move in the right direction.
I feel like this would be a healthy change for lowsec. It would mean SC's don't have the automatic "iWin" button when things look like they might go badly and it gives gangs a chance to get kills when the enemy drops SC's without a proper support fleet. In addition, it still makes support fleet ewar useful and neccessary.
The other alternative is make SC, and even Titans for what it's worth, to have something like 30-50 warp strength so that a gang can still tackle them in lowsec without HICs, but I can't imagine most people will go for that
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LT Alter
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
175
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Posted - 2015.06.05 05:40:12 -
[7] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:You mean to stop all those supercapitals that are dying every day when they get HILARIOUSLY dunked on by Rekking Krew, Lowsec Shup[jgruhgiug (spelling??) and their equivalents?
This isn't about supers that are lost to people not knowing how to use them properly, this is about a supercap fleet that knows what they're doing. An experienced supercap fleet with a good FC is literally impossible to tackle in lowsec. Yes you may catch one of them if you have a proper fleet of you know, 40 hictors and a lot of luck is needed even in that situation.
I don't see why you would object to this change, it does nothing to decrease the deaths of idiotic super pilots (if anything it'll increase them.)
Tiddle Jr wrote:What's wrong with SC in low sec? I don't see them use in masses. The spike of sc loses was only due to increase of their movements prior Entosis Link era.
Surely you're not serious. They are used extensively, they are a win button in lowsec right now. The reason for this is, they are huge force multipliers and unlike in nullsec, they can't be bubbled in lowsec. They are nigh impossible to catch in lowsec. So the use of these overly expensive force multipliers is not risky, which is why it is bad for the game. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1505
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Posted - 2015.06.05 05:57:57 -
[8] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:This isn't about supers that are lost to people not knowing how to use them properly, this is about a supercap fleet that knows what they're doing. An experienced supercap fleet with a good FC is literally impossible to tackle in lowsec. Yes you may catch one of them if you have a proper fleet of you know, 40 hictors and a lot of luck is needed even in that situation. So, knowing how the game works, knowing what you do and how to do it properly is again a punishable offense? Have we really come this far? If I know what I am doing and demonstrate time and again that I am better than you, you have no rights or claims to destroy me easily; you have to become better than me first before you can claim my ship wreck. If you cannot do this, you should forever be incapable of ruining my day. Many people have already displayed that even experienced Scap FCs can lead their shiny toys to demise if they encounter an equally or more experienced group (the numerous encounters between PL and BL in Derelik and other places, to name only one). End of story.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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LT Alter
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
175
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Posted - 2015.06.05 06:10:42 -
[9] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:LT Alter wrote:This isn't about supers that are lost to people not knowing how to use them properly, this is about a supercap fleet that knows what they're doing. An experienced supercap fleet with a good FC is literally impossible to tackle in lowsec. Yes you may catch one of them if you have a proper fleet of you know, 40 hictors and a lot of luck is needed even in that situation. So, knowing how the game works, knowing what you do and how to do it properly is again a punishable offense? Have we really come this far?
Where did I say such should be a punishable offense? They are not breaking the game mechanics by using them, using them correctly is a great way to win fights and be effective in lowsec. I am not condemning the use of supers in lowsec, or saying that the players using them are abusing the game. I am saying they are not in balance with the rest of the game in lowsec, which is bad for the game.
I'll ask you an equally daft question in response to your question. So, having a large pile of isk and enough experience with the game to use it properly should allow you to have a ship that can do more DPS than a dreadnaught, more ehp than 10 dreads put together, with the ability to apply over 1000 dps to subcaps as well, and that you should be able to use this ship without putting it at great risk? Have we really come this far?
Personally I feel supercaps should remain powerful as they are. All I'm saying is, being able to use such powerful ship should be risky. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1505
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Posted - 2015.06.05 06:25:44 -
[10] - Quote
Look at your quote. You said that people, who know how to use their tools, are too hard to catch and destroy and thus, you, as someone who is not as apt as them, needs tools to counter their intelligence and skilfulness with brute force. Henceforth, you seem to be of the opinion that being good at the game is too much of an obstacle for those who are not good at the game to beat those who are. For me, that is equal to saying "Being good is a punishable offense."
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1036
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Posted - 2015.06.05 07:22:35 -
[11] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:I feel that a good change to help nerf the extensive use of supercarriers in lowsec would be to make them more dangerous to use in lowsec. Right now they can be jumped in en masse with incredibly low risk. To make it more dangerous to use them in lowsec, I feel that Heavy Interdictors should get this role bonus "Immune to indirect electronic warfare."
Basically make them immune to ecm bursts, but they remain vulnerable to all other forms of electronic warfare. It's a small change that certainly doesn't fix the entire problem, but I feel it is a move in the right direction.
I am not really seeing an issue with "extensive use of Supercarriers in lowsec." The issues with massed Supercarriers are the same in low and null sec. There are a few folks who are not afraid to swing their Supercarriers around like a giant morning star. That is a good thing. Making your heavy interdictors work a bit better is not really going to change the outcome of a fight against 30-200 Supercarriers, it's just going to make it even easier to kill someone trying to use 2-4 of them.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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LT Alter
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
175
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Posted - 2015.06.05 07:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Look at your quote. You said that people, who know how to use their tools, are too hard to catch and destroy and thus, you, as someone who is not as apt as them, needs tools to counter their intelligence and skilfulness with brute force. Henceforth, you seem to be of the opinion that being good at the game is too much of an obstacle for those who are not good at the game to beat those who are. For me, that is equal to saying "Being good is a punishable offense."
However I never directed my statements towards punishing good players, in fact if anything this suggested change would enhance the need for a better player to extrapolate more success out of their ships (super and hictor pilots). I am not attacking smarter and better players, I am attacking that fact that even a smarter player group cannot fight a small group of half decent supercarrier pilots effectively without using their own supers. Even in a case where supers are fighting supers in lowsec, it's very rare for either side to lose one. Just look at asakai a couple years back, compare the amount of supers that jumped in to the amount that died and of the few that did die, quite a few of them died to black screens and lag rather than being actually tackled.
Supers should not be the end all be all of lowsec capital fights. They should be force multipliers, but should be risky to use. Right now the risk to reward is completely unbalanced. They can be used in any capital (or even non capital) fights in lowsec and the chances of losing one is incredibly low. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
156
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Posted - 2015.06.05 07:32:32 -
[13] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: So, knowing how the game works, knowing what you do and how to do it properly is again a punishable offense? Have we really come this far?
there's no bubble in lowsec. now check the thread title.
Just Add Water
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LT Alter
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
175
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Posted - 2015.06.05 07:33:24 -
[14] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I am not really seeing an issue with "extensive use of Supercarriers in lowsec." The issues with massed Supercarriers are the same in low and null sec. There are a few folks who are not afraid to swing their Supercarriers around like a giant morning star. That is a good thing. Making your heavy interdictors work a bit better is not really going to change the outcome of a fight against 30-200 Supercarriers, it's just going to make it even easier to kill someone trying to use 2-4 of them.
I don't see how 'folks swinging their super carrier fleets like a giant morning star' is a good thing, other than when 2 massive fleets collide in an epic battle. But, aside from that, the issues are not the same in low or null. In lowsec the risk is exponentially lower for the same benefits. Why should one be less risky than the other?
You are right, making my hics work a bit better isn't really going to change the outcome of a fight against that many supers. But, it does create a riskier situation when they use that many. If they don't have an easy escape route in all of lowsec, then dropping them means that there is a chance the bigger fish can actually catch them and kill them. Right now any group with more than a couple supers can use them without fear of them being tackled in pretty much any situation. There should be risk here, and right now there is not. Risk/reward is an integral part of eve. |
vikari
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
123
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Posted - 2015.06.06 01:58:42 -
[15] - Quote
I agree with the OPs sentiments. The one ship that is capable of holding the SC in lowsec, is very susceptible to their ECM burst, and the more SCs you have the more powerful it is. There is no diminishing returns of this module, and though few groups could actually field enough SC to keep the ECM burst going none stop. That is the problem with this mod, it has no limit to it's strength. With that said, SC shouldn't have a "get out of jail free card" while in lowsec. |
LT Alter
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
178
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Posted - 2015.06.06 02:04:10 -
[16] - Quote
vikari wrote:I agree with the OPs sentiments. The one ship that is capable of holding the SC in lowsec, is very susceptible to their ECM burst, and the more SCs you have the more powerful it is. There is no diminishing returns of this module, and though few groups could actually field enough SC to keep the ECM burst going none stop. That is the problem with this mod, it has no limit to it's strength. With that said, SC shouldn't have a "get out of jail free card" while in lowsec.
Thanks for the reply. With your ending statement you seem to mean that they shouldn't be able to ECM burst in lowsec. Which is also another suggestion I've seen mentioned a couple times around the forums. It is also what I suspect may be the route CCP take when they adjust supercarriers. My thread here is just a suggestion on another possible option. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1039
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Posted - 2015.06.06 03:59:30 -
[17] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:vikari wrote:I agree with the OPs sentiments. The one ship that is capable of holding the SC in lowsec, is very susceptible to their ECM burst, and the more SCs you have the more powerful it is. There is no diminishing returns of this module, and though few groups could actually field enough SC to keep the ECM burst going none stop. That is the problem with this mod, it has no limit to it's strength. With that said, SC shouldn't have a "get out of jail free card" while in lowsec. Thanks for the reply. With your ending statement you seem to mean that they shouldn't be able to ECM burst in lowsec. Which is also another suggestion I've seen mentioned a couple times around the forums. It is also what I suspect may be the route CCP take when they adjust supercarriers. My thread here is just a suggestion on another possible option.
This would be a better option - no projected ECM burst in low sec.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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