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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2510
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Posted - 2015.06.08 13:17:46 -
[31] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:So i either blob, gank or dont engage?
Killing pvers isnt hard, never was, never will be. Its not about making something easy, its about pve content making quit a few ships totally unsuited for the job due to rat aggro changes that were uncalled for in their current fashion making piracy in general have a stupid entry requirment.
Right tool for the job bub. Welcome to EVE.
and btw, cruisers arent exactly high entry, nor are friends, nor is waiting till the rat aggro is manageable.
W0lf Crendraven wrote: And lol, "learn to tackle by bumping ..." . If one sentence could summarize the laughing stock that is highsec pvp this would be it.
too much effort for you?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1867
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Posted - 2015.06.08 13:33:38 -
[32] - Quote
I know how we should fix that, make the NPC always shoot at every capsuler in the site no matter how many of them. That way it's fair. The NPC help and hinder everybody. No free lunch for anyone. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
655
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Posted - 2015.06.08 16:42:34 -
[33] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Thats stupid though, the pveer is trying to kill the rats, the priate is trying to safe them.
Also, i know why they changed it (it was due to people using a tanky ship first and using a max gank ship with 0 tank second) but its a bad change.
Actually...if pirate NPC's had navies that responded like empire factions you might just find the pirates would attack regardless.
Years of 0.0 ratting and empire mission running has me in an interesting spot. Against any damn near any pirate faction my actions against them would be classified as genocidal at this point.
Blood rats fight new player to the out of empire life. have him 4 months in. They see me....6+ years of mowing them down. I could see all military bearing go out the window and they'd say bring that man down...now.
That and lets be honest, if the rats had thought and feelings...they'd be thinking is the guy going to wipe us next? Good question to ponder. I know some wh'ers this was how they "farmed" wh's. Let some poor ******* or a few of them run the whole site almost to the end.... take them out, kill final sleepers and take the loot. The enemy of their enemy wasn' t their friend. The enemy of their enemy was doing pve the smart way....let the other guy bust his ass then just take the fruits of their labors. |
Ben Ishikela
42
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Posted - 2015.06.18 13:06:34 -
[34] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5828821#post5828821 maybe solution. --- TLDR -PVE needs to fit points. -if there is a pvp situation its basicly without any npc aggro at all for neither party. -pve will be quicker and harder.
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1016
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Posted - 2015.06.18 13:18:01 -
[35] - Quote
drone agression? why just drone? parallel thread for same issue:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=430344
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
313
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Posted - 2015.06.18 22:15:55 -
[36] - Quote
Mistype, meant basicely pve rats. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1030
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Posted - 2015.06.19 10:04:31 -
[37] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: nor is waiting till the rat aggro is manageable.
lol you've ever been involved in ratter hunting? I mean EVER? Seriously. You need tons of luck to get grab on ratter before he warps out to POS/Station and docks up with neutral in local. Who the heck would wait for rat aggro to diminish? This proposal can only come from a person who doesnt have a slightest idea about the matter. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1474
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Posted - 2015.06.19 10:37:15 -
[38] - Quote
still not a broken system welcome to sleeper AI 'lite'
droneboat pilots are very familiar with it workings and have adapted their gameplay to accommodate it
you too get the same choices - Adapt - Die
nb the NPCS are not your "friends" they do not like you they want to kill you too
congratulations on making their job easy I look forward to reviewing more of your lossmails |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
40
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Posted - 2015.06.19 10:51:10 -
[39] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:still not a broken system welcome to sleeper AI 'lite'
it is. broken.
Kitty Bear wrote:droneboat pilots are very familiar with it workings and have adapted their gameplay to accommodate it
you too get the same choices - Adapt - Die there is no real way to adapt, except of well, not doing it. I dont know anyone left who still hunts ratters solo, because its waste of time and doesnt work anymore - due to stupid rat aggro change.
Kitty Bear wrote: nb the NPCS are not your "friends" they do not like you they want to kill you too
congratulations on making their job easy
they arent your friend either, so why would they protect you? Doesnt compute.
Kitty Bear wrote:I look forward to reviewing more of your lossmails which lossmails?
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
760
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Posted - 2015.06.19 11:58:52 -
[40] - Quote
Mark Hadden wrote:they arent your friend either, so why would they protect you? Doesnt compute.
They aren't protecting anyone.
These are not civilians looking for a rescue. Depending on the rats they are supposed to be Slavers, Nihilistic Cultists, Terrorists or a huge conglomerate of crime syndicates---all of whom were engaged in doing nefarious deeds when the ratter showed up and started attacking them. Then another capsuleer showed up and started shooting the ratter with even more dangerous weaponry judging from both the Ewar and the fact that the Ratter is taking rather alarming amounts of damage. So they make the call to kill the guy with the more dangerous weaponry in the hopes that when he is gone the ratter will be damaged enough to either be quickly killed or leave on his own.
That AI also does not keep to the same targets for very long, even in the presence of Ewar, or drone users would have gone back to quietly afk mission running, which they can't do anymore as the NPC's just love to eat drones constantly no matter what Ewar you put on the field. Back before I gave up on drones I tried using scramblers to hold agro, along with reps and all the other ewar options. They switch pretty often, especially to drones. |
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Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
40
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:05:49 -
[41] - Quote
you need to see the result.
And even if they are not protecting anyone per lore, however, factually they are protecting the farmer gameplay-wise by swapping to second agressor forcing him off field, who engages the farmer and has no business with rats themselves.
Use your common sense. I understand that you dont like this view of things because you take advantage of it but it is how it is. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
760
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:22:30 -
[42] - Quote
Use your common sense.
You warp into an area with a whole lot of environmental damage flying around, and want to be immune to it while your target is not.
I understand you don't like that view because it would make your ganking easier if you didn't have to be prepared to survive the space you are in, but that's how it is.
This whole thing is because some 'pirates' want to use cheap ships to kill expensive ships deep in enemy territory. It was a poor mechanic when it worked that way, and it was changed for a reason. The agro won't stay with you, you don't have to tank it forever unless you stay to kill the rats too. The behavior of the AI is well known, it's not like there is a special rule just to catch 'pirates' in particular. |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
40
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:34:42 -
[43] - Quote
great. we both expressed our view on things. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
760
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:38:02 -
[44] - Quote
Of more impact, the Devs expressed their views on it.
All of this was brought up ad nauseum for years when it was the other way around. It hit fever pitch when the change was announced--- few were in favor because it killed PvE drone boats as well.
They did it anyway, and everybody gets to adapt. |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
40
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:41:47 -
[45] - Quote
do you maybe have a link to devs view on the matter? just out of interest. IIRC they had PvE in focus as they changed the AI. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
760
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:45:43 -
[46] - Quote
If the problem really was that a fast and nimble ship with the proper tank is needed to do this, a proposal for a new form of marauder, or possibly an alternate bastion module for current marauders that made them capable of getting around like the ships you once used but still cost similar to your target ships and were capable of surviving in the same space.
I doubt that such a ship would be acceptable to the sorts of people that enjoy the gankbear lifestyle though---the pricetag is far to high and they don't like to risk their personal assets anymore than anyone else. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
760
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:48:21 -
[47] - Quote
Mark Hadden wrote:do you maybe have a link to devs view on the matter? just out of interest. IIRC they had PvE in focus as they changed the AI.
It's fairly self evident, as the change went through.
They did have PvE in mind, both in disrupting the too easy mechanics of bringing a fleet and drones with one guy tanking forever, and in leveling the playing field in PvP engagements.
There were many, many threadnaughts at the time.
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Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
40
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:55:15 -
[48] - Quote
I asked you for your dev source. Would you please provide a link to what they said? IIRC it was a pure pve thing with no focus on PvP aspects, as they attempted to fix easy complex completion using tank ships.
"Gankbear playstyle", there is nothing wrong with it. Guerilla warfare was always part of the game since eve existing and is needed for proper risk projection to ISK farmers. You can easy farm ISK, why should it be that hard for the opposite force to disrupt your activity??
Whole PvP playstyle has gone thanks to that change, I cant imagine it was part of CCP's plan when they implemented it.
Mike Voidstar wrote: It's fairly self evident, as the change went through.
evident for what? Devs push through a lot of stupid changes, so doesnt say anything. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
760
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:00:32 -
[49] - Quote
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, gameplay wise.
There was something wrong with being able to show up with a couple of neuts and a point in a ship that cost less than some modules and capping out your target while the NPC's did the damage.
Now you can still hunt ratters and such, but you have to bring an appropriate ship.
And no, I don't keep archives of old threads laying around. The fact that the change went through with this very aspect being discussed at exhausting length is sufficient. It's not something that slid in under the radar while they were looking at something else.
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Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:17:27 -
[50] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, gameplay wise.
There was something wrong with being able to show up with a couple of neuts and a point in a ship that cost less than some modules and capping out your target while the NPC's did the damage. why not? The effort and work wasnt in taking down the target but to get a grab on him, against all the massive home, defense and intel advantage he had. It was balanced pretty well.
Mike Voidstar wrote:Now you can still hunt ratters and such, but you have to bring an appropriate ship. theoretically you still can but practically noone longer bothers, because the risk and effort doesnt justify the little success resulting from it anymore. You wouldnt bring a slow, tanked and dps-heavy ship in same time as needed nowadays into deep enemy territory because of virtually non-existant chance of success while taking huge risk of loosing it easily. Thats why its non-existant play style anymore.
Mike Voidstar wrote: And no, I don't keep archives of old threads laying around. The fact that the change went through with this very aspect being discussed at exhausting length is sufficient. It's not something that slid in under the radar while they were looking at something else.
ah good you have no source.
If I remember correctly, not much of pvp complaints were raised during discussion, here and there someone, so I believe it could went pretty much under the radar very well.
The fact that something went through doesnt mean anything and not self evident at all. Stupid changes going through all the time, thats usual business for CCP. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
761
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:29:34 -
[51] - Quote
Oh no... there were mountainous threads about the PvP impact, half of it the exact same complaints from Robert Caldera that you are still seeing now.
Home Field advantage is just that, and it's appropriate to have it. Why bother owning space you can't at least nominally control? Hunt all you like, just be prepared to occupy the space your target is in.
People get ganked all the time, every day. It can still be done. The difference is that now there is actual risk in doing so. If your opponent is required to field a billion isk to sit in that space, you should have to bring something at least competitive. |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:37:41 -
[52] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote: Home Field advantage is just that, and it's appropriate to have it. Why bother owning space you can't at least nominally control? Hunt all you like, just be prepared to occupy the space your target is in.
not complaining about home advantage, just saying it wasnt easy at all.
Mike Voidstar wrote: People get ganked all the time, every day. It can still be done. The difference is that now there is actual risk in doing so. If your opponent is required to field a billion isk to sit in that space, you should have to bring something at least competitive.
yes people get ganked all the time, out of question. This thread is however about a certain playstyle which made impossible exactly for the reason you are bringing up here. You need heavy gear which is basically not available or not realistically fiedable in deep enemy terrotory. At least I dont see that sort of kills anymore, now you strictly need an afk cyno cloaker and/or gang of friends nearby for projecting any kind of threat. Solo roams are dead, which is supersad IMO and took out a lot of heat from eve. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1474
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:40:20 -
[53] - Quote
Mark Hadden wrote:I asked you for your dev source. Would you please provide a link to what they said?
search the dev blogs from about 2-3 years ago search the forums for dev posts from about 2-3 years ago
iirc chribba maintains a dev-post search thingie somewhere |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
761
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:41:01 -
[54] - Quote
You now have mobile depot and can refit, cloaks are trivial to fit on anything combat worthy... You can get to where you need to go, strike and get out... you just can't do it trivially in a ship worth less than a dirty diaper. |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:42:51 -
[55] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:You now have mobile depot and can refit, cloaks are trivial to fit on anything combat worthy... You can get to where you need to go, strike and get out... you just can't do it trivially in a ship worth less than a dirty diaper.
no, otherwise people would do it. I am not aware of that happening in the recent 2 years. You are pretending there is still a practicable method, where is not. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
761
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:49:53 -
[56] - Quote
They don't do it because they are as risk adverse, if not more, than the target they are hunting.
It can be done, just not without risking somewhere between half to a third of the resources your target does. Previously it could be done by newbie wages in throw away ships---IE, no actual risk of any note. |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:53:57 -
[57] - Quote
fact is its not happening because its too much of hassle, effort and risk vs. little to no reward - thus entire playstyle being dead. In other words, the balance in that is out of whack, what we are complaining about.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
761
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:58:37 -
[58] - Quote
What is so special about it that it needs to be effectively subsidized to the point that you can do it for practically free?
It was radically unbalanced before, to the detriment of the game and it's reputation for having one of the most toxic playerbases. Changes that make the game fun for everyone instead of just half are a good thing. |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:07:41 -
[59] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:What is so special about it that it needs to be effectively subsidized to the point that you can do it for practically free? it was all but for free, hunting was a very time consuming activity, maybe not that much in isk but in time and work, ships were destroyed on both parties and people had fun and something to do. defenders were on their toes, attackers have been hunted and camped, everyone had fun. Now, its time, risk, huge isk investment for almost no reward, thats why its out of balance and noone bothering anymore. All what left are afk cloaky cynos for black ops drops, dunno if you find that more entertaining.
Mike Voidstar wrote:It was radically unbalanced before, to the detriment of the game and it's reputation for having one of the most toxic playerbases. Changes that make the game fun for everyone instead of just half are a good thing. What reputation are you talking about, idgi? Playerbase is still toxic as before nothing changed, except of the fact that there is less to do. Ratters still do what they used to do, gankers still do what they used to do but a whole branch of profession simply vanished from one day to the other. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
323
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:12:44 -
[60] - Quote
Mark Hadden wrote:do you maybe have a link to devs view on the matter? just out of interest. IIRC they had PvE in focus as they changed the AI. We do not need a link to prove this point, all you have to do is log in and go hunting ratters and the evidence of how CCP(and by default the devs) have decided this situation should work is right there for you to see in your damage indicators.
And the old system was broken in favor of the ganklers, that you are not willing to admit that simply proves your prejudice on this matter. But just in case you are that blind let's review/.
Old AI Rats attack the first person in the pocket, or the person shooting them and never switch aggro. IE they are always shooting the ratter leaving the ganker free to fit his ship however he wants and roam about the pocket doing whatever he wants never having to worry about taking aggro from the rats. The result of this system is that the rats are ALWAYS serving as free DPS and that was not balanced, in fact it gave all of the advantage to the gankers.
Current AI Rats attack according to a well understood set of conditions, well at least they are understood by most of us. Rats can, will and often do change primary depending on the conditions in the site at any given moment. Rats attack any and ALL ships in the pocket based on these changing conditions. Net affect - ALL players and ALL ships that enter the site must take into account the aggro from the rats and fit accordingly, while it may not be the perfect system it is considerably closer to balanced than the old AI.
But the rats primary ships using E-War. Yes they do and that is understood by almost everyone and perhaps there is a lesson in that for you as well. Besides that since the devs at CCP wrote the AI logic dictates that this situation is working as intended.
But that is unfair since we gankers need to fit point so we are always primary. Yes it does move you high on the list of targets to be primary, again since CCP wrote the AI logic dictates that it is working as intended.
I find the irony in all of this particularly hysterical. But I am helping the rats by killing the ratterthey should not attack me. This is just the first of your errors in judgement here. The rats are not your friends and they are not the ratters enemy. The rats hate everyone equally based on a set of conditions programmed by the devs at CCP.
Bottom line here is this. Rat AI was programmed by the devs at CCP. Rat AI hates E-War often making ships using it primary targets. Logic dictates here that this is acting as CCP intended. Logic also dictates that if you want to attack ratters AND minimize your risk of drawing aggro then DO NOT USE E-War. Cannot kill ratter without using E-War then tank up and fly a proper ship for the task at hand.
Here is another wild and crazy thought. Perhaps CCP wrote the AI this way as a means of limiting the kill board cowboys and their easy kills of ratters and mission runners. Perhaps it is an attempt to force you lazy "elitel PvP" players into actually having to fight someone in a ship and fit that is intended to fight PvP battles. Oh and the answer is no, ratters and mission runners cannot fly PvP fits it simply does not work in the higher level ratting sites and missions. Want that to change then lobby CCP for changes to these sites. |
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