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Veronica Isagar
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
17
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Posted - 2015.06.08 01:56:45 -
[1] - Quote
Is there a way to Remove Faction warfare standings from the Use of smart bombs, were as other users of smart bombs who are not in FW don't' get a standing hit, we (FW Pilots) use a smart bomb in a fight and just ding a bot or if we destroy one of our wrecks we receive fac war standings hit, Is there a way to were fac war pilots won't get a standing hit if we use a smart bomb as say a firewall, drone killer and such or if we kill a wreck, but at the same time if a FW pilot of the same faction kills a pod we receive the double the penalty?
BLACK FOX is RECRUITING
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SmokinJs Arthie
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
103
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Posted - 2015.06.08 02:01:01 -
[2] - Quote
Also, if we want to do a foray into null we cant use bubbles. If you bubble a militia fleet you will be kicked from militia quick fast and in a hurry. I was hoping that faction standing loss would be like the kill right system. Someone kills you and it was a legit awox then you could apply the penalty.
Justified Chaos is recruiting.
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Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Phoenix Naval Systems
147
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:10:19 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah. I don't even do facwar and I agree with this 100% |
Nyalnara
Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions
7
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Posted - 2015.06.08 08:31:14 -
[4] - Quote
IMO, that's not the only problem with FW standing...
Actually, the only people protected by the standing hit are awoxers (You cannot engage them if you care about standings, you have to wait for them to attack, which mean you're disadvantaged. And they don't give a f*** about standing hit since they use throw-away alts to do that, or have corporate alts with maxed standing, which allow their corp to keep farming FW allies.) and farmers, which do not contribute to the warzone control, as they usually have alts in both militias and plexes the same system both way.
And this is bad design. That's why i support the removal of FW standing hits on your own militia.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Makrov Putin
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
10
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Posted - 2015.06.08 13:55:10 -
[5] - Quote
Perhaps a mechanic that prevents standing hits between members in the same fleet at the very least? |
SmokinJs Arthie
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
104
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Posted - 2015.06.08 15:22:53 -
[6] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:IMO, that's not the only problem with FW standing...
Actually, the only people protected by the standing hit are awoxers (You cannot engage them if you care about standings, you have to wait for them to attack, which mean you're disadvantaged. And they don't give a f*** about standing hit since they use throw-away alts to do that, or have corporate alts with maxed standing, which allow their corp to keep farming FW allies.) and farmers, which do not contribute to the warzone control, as they usually have alts in both militias and plexes the same system both way.
And this is bad design. That's why i support the removal of FW standing hits on your own militia.
Most the time they are in the other militia. For an example, most awoxers will be in Minmatar shooting Gallente. I'm sure it is happening the same way in the other militias. They show up on overview as friendly so they can get the drop on you and they never get a standings hit. They then never have to worry about getting kicked out of their militia. This only hurts newer players who haven't been around long enough to know who potential awoxers are, as they still show up as friendly.
Justified Chaos is recruiting.
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Alexis Nightwish
237
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Posted - 2015.06.09 02:22:01 -
[7] - Quote
Wow. I honestly had no idea this was a thing, and this thing sucks.
To me this looks like an exploit. I hope CCP fixes it.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Veronica Isagar
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
18
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Posted - 2015.06.15 01:14:10 -
[8] - Quote
hopefully CCP will address it or at least acknowledge it as a problem.
BLACK FOX is RECRUITING
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Pellit1
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
6
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Posted - 2015.06.21 21:40:03 -
[9] - Quote
CCPLS.
Definitely support this. Becoming more and more infuriating. |
vikari
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
126
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Posted - 2015.06.22 04:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
+1 to both ideas, though I feel the bubble is by and large the biggest issue of the two. Simply put FW should not be restricted from basic game play because of standing mechanics. |
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Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
1003
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:02:16 -
[11] - Quote
I was asked to poke my head in...
To answer the main question presented. Standings loss for your faction and security standings loss are two different mechanics.
This is somewhat connected to the bubble issue which still has a murky viewpoint.
The argument for faction standings being separated from bubbles is because we are in null security space. My argument is that faction standing penalties conflict with the intuitive nature of crime watch and standings in general. While faction standings and security standings are different, aggressive player actions have a clear pattern that standings loss for bubbles harms. It also discourages play and that is never a good thing.
In null, there is no law and no rules. However, in low security or high security space there is law and there are rules.
As it is current written, it is a request for an exact exemption for a singular mechanic for convenience. While removing smart bomb standings losses would be nice for the reasons listed. What is the greater argument for it? Suddenly, faction on faction can smart bomb each other to death. The above argument for bubbles is that we've moved into null security space. In allowing firewalling and not taking standings hits from wrecks we have created a new problem and a new way to exploit each other.
The argument that 'other people do not take standing hits when using smartbombs' doesn't work. Those players have chosen not to participate in faction warfare. Faction warfare comes with a new ruleset. The question I will counter with is:
What should the standings rules for faction warfare be?
I'm more than happy to take forward a good argument. But it has to be a true argument. I will also point out that complexity is not the path to take in this matter. Special exemptions are what the Crimewatch changes moved away from. The argument for clarity and consistency was made at Fanfest during the Round Table for Faction Warfare when people asked for suspect flags when entering faction warfare complexes. While I think that in general is a good idea or something like it, the greater problem is introducing a special moment when one type of gate in the game will flag a player with a suspect flag. It may not be a big deal and it may be something that people easily absorb and move past but those are the arguments that are made when CCP has countered some of these requests during discussions at Fanfest and Eve Vegas that I have been at.
So! TL;DR: As it is 'remove smartbombs from having faction standing penalties for militias' is not going to fly.
Member of CSMX - CSM9 Weekly Updates
Member of CSM9
Low Sec Lifestyle - An Eve Blog
@Sugar_Kyle
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Arla Sarain
518
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:15:29 -
[12] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote: What should the standings rules for faction warfare be?
That standing losses for attacking friendly militia is reserved to player choice...?
If the victim feels it was a genuine awox he can submit an automated petition of sorts to reduce the aggressors standings with the militia. You couldn't really force someone to lose standings, because if any friendly militia engagement occurs under the current rule set you lose standings anyway. Only thing this will allow is to exempt people from standing loss caused by unavoidable friendly fire through an agreement. Unless you suggest to avoid it by exempting yourself from certain strategies. |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
699
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:39:51 -
[13] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote: What should the standings rules for faction warfare be?
That standing losses for attacking friendly militia is reserved to player choice...? If the victim feels it was a genuine awox he can submit an automated petition of sorts to reduce the aggressors standings with the militia. You couldn't really force someone to lose standings, because if any friendly militia engagement occurs under the current rule set you lose standings anyway. Only thing this will allow is to exempt people from standing loss caused by unavoidable friendly fire through an agreement. Unless you suggest to avoid it by exempting yourself from certain strategies.
I would like to note; although slightly off topic. The other issue with Standings is the nature in which you obtain them. Besides for COSMOS (one time), FW Promotions (one time) and Mission spam (Which most pvpers do not want to do all the time) - Factions are an annoying mechanic to work around.
It should either be more dynamic, have less weight or have alternative ways of obtaining. Allowing players to be hated at all times by other factions even, but to move around where they apply effort and have their actions reflect that.
I''ve always found it funny that a guy does one level 4 Mission for the State Protectorate and he gains more standing then a year of plexing in the Warzone. |
Veronica Isagar
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
19
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:44:27 -
[14] - Quote
I feel any AOE attacks should not give a FW standings hit, Or it should be anyone in fleet from the same militia should not receive a standing hit, rather be exempt from standing hits if everyone even thou from different corps or alliances while in FW are in the same fleet. Currently I'm not interested in bubbles in Null as that is a different animal all on its own. Just allow the use of Smart bombs with out FW standing hits.
BLACK FOX is RECRUITING
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Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
100
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:20:39 -
[15] - Quote
I am often told that drones are not all powerful because :smartbombs: 'cept I can't use smartbombs to counter drones without risking my status in the militia. If I drop too much in my standings I get kicked out of the militia.
There shouldn't be a standings hit for shooting fleet members. IMO.
Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
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SmokinJs Arthie
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
105
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Posted - 2015.06.23 16:00:19 -
[16] - Quote
I understand what the standings penalties try to accomplish. But let us be honest it tends to hinder the players trying to play within the rules of faction warfare more than those trying to abuse its mechanics. Those who are already shooting friendly militia pilots are usually not in your militia but allied to it. So the standings penalties then become irrelevant. I know CCP has said they are thinking of splitting the alliances between the militias, which would be nice as well. But beyond using smartbombs there are also bubbles and shooting friendly wrecks. Would it be possible to have it so pilots in the same fleet donGÇÖt losing standings? Or have a system similar to kill rights where if a friendly did attack you could choose to or not to apply the penalty to standings, based on the circumstances.
Justified Chaos is recruiting.
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
476
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Posted - 2015.06.23 17:41:12 -
[17] - Quote
While looking at the bubble issue and saying it is nullsec and there are no rules works as a valid reason to remove the faction standing loss, I think you could do the same thing if you looked at all of eve and made it an AoE argument.
As it stands AoE weapon systems are unique and powerful tools in the right hands. Drag bubbles, Firewalls, Drone destroying smartbombs, and perhaps in the future AoE citadel defenses as well as other things. At the moment Faction Warfare pilots are restricted from utilizing ANY of these weapon systems due to the potential risk of getting their entire alliance removed from FW.
While CCP may not enjoy adding exceptions to certain weapon types or systems, I believe removing standings losses from all AoE weapons is justified both from a mechanics standpoint (why shouldn't we be able to use certain weapons/tactics) as well as a RP/Lore standpoint (Privateers are willing to put their lives on the line and know they are in a hostile environment where all weapons and tactics available will be used to destroy the enemy).
Do you think that the idea presented in this fashion would get more traction with CCP? |
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union
31
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Posted - 2015.06.23 18:08:04 -
[18] - Quote
I am not even part of FW.
I can say the any faction losses for bubbles should be completely removed. You can only use bubbles in nullsec and wspace anyways were there are no rules per say.
Plus bubbles do zero damage and aren't an offensive weapon. Anyone can fly through them unharmed.
I have no comment on the Smartbombs. |
Veratrix
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
22
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Posted - 2015.06.23 19:13:33 -
[19] - Quote
Another one on the band wagon for getting faction hits removed for aoe weapons. I honestly see no reason lore/mechanics wise, why FW players should solely be prevented from using these items. The whole don't be in FW argument is dumb, because the mechanic as it stands is dumb. There is no logical reason to only prevent FW players from utilizing these tools.
The awoxing thing would be a pretty minimal problem that only seriously affected pods, and there are minimal tangible benefits gained from specifically smartbombing as an awoxer as opposed to a pie so I don't really see how it matters. Currently you can awox within the FW system with out taking standings hits for your current faction via cross-faction awoxing. So the argument that you want to prevent no-standings hit awoxing when it already exists within the current mechanics is dumb.
Frankly, and as I hope this thread will eventually show, the most active FW group/players are more than willing to risk the potential negatives of getting rid of standings hits for these items. As the opportunity to finally use these very basic and important tools just significantly and obnoxiously outweighs it. |
Wolfsdragoon
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
64
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Posted - 2015.06.23 20:14:25 -
[20] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:
As it is current written, it is a request for an exact exemption for a singular mechanic for convenience. While removing smart bomb standings losses would be nice for the reasons listed. What is the greater argument for it? Suddenly, faction on faction can smart bomb each other to death. The above argument for bubbles is that we've moved into null security space. In allowing firewalling and not taking standings hits from wrecks we have created a new problem and a new way to exploit each other.
.
For convenience? You mean having the same mechanics as other players? Your slippery slope argument doesn't really make sense given that awoxers avoid standing losses entirely by joining friendly militias.
FW fleets can't fight drone based fleets near as effectively as everyone else, or missile fleets. |
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SmokinJs Arthie
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
105
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Posted - 2015.06.24 02:56:55 -
[21] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Faction warfare comes with a new ruleset.
Then I dont want neutrals coming into my plex.
(I dont really want that. Im sure using the other side of the argument.)
I also dont want neutral pirates using gal mil alts to get intel on our position just cause they know we cant shoot them.
Justified Chaos is recruiting.
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Myra Stark
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
0
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Posted - 2015.06.24 04:21:32 -
[22] - Quote
Faction Warfare's unique rule set / fleet meta needs to be retained.
Wormhole Space & Null offers players the opportunity to use AOE systems without restrictions. That heavily influences the fleet meta in those parts of New Eden. The limited or non-availability of AOE systems in FW space creates a unique FW fleet meta. If FW players want the "Full" experience, they can move to Wormholes or Null. Removing the AOE restrictions & the resulting standings hits from FW space eliminates the unique environment their constrained use creates and will make FW fleet combat like Null.
As a compromise on the issue, is it possible to remove the FW standings impacts when Militia pilots are in Null or Wormhole space? Currently when Militia pilots roam in Null or Wormhole space they are at a disadvantage because of FW standings designed for FW LS follow them. The standings hit for the use of AOE weapons is a product of where they are being used. Militia pilots operating outside of Empire space should not suffer standings hits for using AOE when operating in Null or Wormhole space. Quite simply, the Empires can't follow them into Null/Wormholes and any standings hit is inconsistent with that fact. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
476
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Posted - 2015.06.24 04:27:26 -
[23] - Quote
Myra Stark wrote:Faction Warfare's unique rule set / fleet meta needs to be retained.
Wormhole Space & Null offers players the opportunity to use AOE systems without restrictions. That heavily influences the fleet meta in those parts of New Eden. The limited or non-availability of AOE systems in FW space creates a unique FW fleet meta. If FW players want the "Full" experience, they can move to Wormholes or Null. Removing the AOE restrictions & the resulting standings hits from FW space eliminates the unique environment their constrained use creates and will make FW fleet combat like Null.
As a compromise on the issue, is it possible to remove the FW standings impacts when Militia pilots are in Null or Wormhole space? Currently when Militia pilots roam in Null or Wormhole space they are at a disadvantage because of FW standings designed for FW LS follow them. The standings hit for the use of AOE weapons is a product of where they are being used. Militia pilots operating outside of Empire space should not suffer standings hits for using AOE when operating in Null or Wormhole space. Quite simply, the Empires can't follow them into Null/Wormholes and any standings hit is inconsistent with that fact.
It really is two separate issues. Getting rid of faction standings hits in null space, and removing faction standings hits for AoE weapons.
With regards to AoE weapons, they aren't restricted in FW space, we just get penalized if we use them under the current mechanics. Neutral entities use them against us on a regular basis. |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
82
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Posted - 2015.06.24 05:55:39 -
[24] - Quote
I don't do FW - but from reading this post and expanding on the point of standing and security - there might be a need for CCP to redress the whole system from the ground up (large scale task. Something they can do after SOV changes settle)
My understanding is 1: Standings only now effect what missions you get and your refining tax in HiSec (low enough standings make those empires shoot you) 2: Security Status seems to be worthless and easily fixed if you know what your doing.
What I feel could change 1: Standings need more merit for the grind - NPC support while running missions? Lower LP store cost? Cheaper repair cost? 2: Negetive security status should be a PITA to crawl out of - the lower it is the harder the climb back out (with this in mind - major security hits should come from players attacking Empire ships, and Capsulers allied to that Empire. Not so much maybe from POD kills as the Empires both hate and love Capsulers.).
Perhaps the best way would keep FW rules and then move up in strictness for HiSec and lower the hardness of the rules for Null (FW tends to be heavy LowSec)
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
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Myra Stark
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
0
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Posted - 2015.06.24 12:26:47 -
[25] - Quote
Quote:It really is two separate issues. Getting rid of faction standings hits in null space, and removing faction standings hits for AoE weapons.
With regards to AoE weapons, they aren't restricted in FW space, we just get penalized if we use them under the current mechanics. Neutral entities use them against us on a regular basis.
I agree with the it being two separate issues. Let me clarify AoE weapons and restrictions.
Veronica Isagar comments focused on removing standings losses to pilots incurred when Smartbomb use impacts fleet mates, wrecks etc. We've all lost pods to smartbombers in FW space Smartbomb use is possible for Militia pilots but constrained by the standings mechanic.
The discussion was then expanded to include bubbles and bombs which are prohibited in LOWSEC and can incur standings losses when used by Militia pilots in Null or Wormholes.
The constraints on Smartbomb use and prohibition of other AoE weapons in FW space has created a unique environment that is worth retaining. If a player/FC wants to use all the AoE weapons without restrictions of any kind Null and Wormhole space offer that opportunity. Militia pilots operating in LOWSEC are operating in Empire space. Therefore the constraints and prohibitions of the Empires apply. Adding bubbles and bombs to FW space, in my opinion, would destroy the unique FW fleet meta and unconstrained smartbomb use is also problematic.
Militia pilots operating in Null or Wormhole space should not be penalized when using ANY AoE system/weapon. Their fleet is operating outside of Empire control/influence and are free of the Empire's restrictions.
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
476
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Posted - 2015.06.24 13:47:14 -
[26] - Quote
@Myra
Sorry about the confusion with regards to AoE weapons. The real reason to apply it to AoE weapons is two fold.
1. It makes it broader than a narrow exception for one weapon (Smartbombs) 2. It encompasses all future AoE weapons, such as the proposed Citadel AoE defense.
We aren't suggesting bringing Bombs and Bubbles into Lowsec. Ick. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
476
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Posted - 2015.06.24 13:54:48 -
[27] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote: My understanding is 1: Standings only now effect what missions you get and your refining tax in HiSec (low enough standings make those empires shoot you)
Wrong, if our standings get too low we get kicked out of FW. Do you see why it is important to us? |
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
102
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Posted - 2015.06.24 15:02:48 -
[28] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote: My understanding is 1: Standings only now effect what missions you get and your refining tax in HiSec (low enough standings make those empires shoot you)
Wrong, if our standings get too low we get kicked out of FW. Do you see why it is important to us?
Quoted for truth.
I could care less about missions (I am one of those weird nerds who doesn't run them at all) what I do care about is having to chose between kicking a pilot out of my corp because he used smart bombs to counter drones, having to kick a corp out of my alliance because of the same reason or having to suffer my corp/alliance being booted out of the militia until we can grind enough standings to rejoin again and then wait another 24 hours before we are in the militia. Needless to say, if that were to happen WHILE a system I base out of was also being attacked we would lose the system because for all the power a PVP pilot has if he is not in the militia he can not run a timer.
Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
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Veratrix
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
22
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Posted - 2015.06.24 15:08:37 -
[29] - Quote
Quote:Removing the AOE restrictions & the resulting standings hits from FW space eliminates the unique environment their constrained use creates and will make FW fleet combat like Null.
Or you know like the rest of lowsec...where people can and do use smartbombs. The unique environment you speak of is that by a fluke of game design a small segment of people in eve are prevented from using specific modules, allowed to the rest of the people in that type of space, in any meaningful fashion. What possible benefits and unique uses of gameplay occur by solely preventing facwar players from utilizing modules that rest of lowsec can use.
Frankly, it is incredibly inane, as a faction warfare player, to want to intentionally gimp your potential fleet options because it is somehow unique that we get screwed over and no one else in low or null does. |
Myra Stark
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
0
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Posted - 2015.06.24 21:00:11 -
[30] - Quote
@Thanatos
Thanks for clarifying.... from my previous post "unconstrained smartbomb use is also problematic"
Have you guys looked at the impact the change would have on plex fights?
- Without the potential for standings hits, fitting up SBing Destroyers and Cruisers is easily done. Everyone sits their SBing ship 1500m off the beacon. Now we have Pipe Bombing Faction Warfare style.
Thoughts?
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