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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
KleinerHai
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 18:16:33 -
[1] - Quote
I have participated the last three years in the Ally tournament and within our corp we are actively working towards the tournament, organizing regular trainings and moving all members to participate for months.
Now I see a fundamental flaw in the random draw.
There are this year many alliances that want to participate and you picked out 48 randomly and obviously we are not one of them.
With an additional 12 alliances already rule int there are only 4 spots left and we need to bid on them knowing there are about 23 potential participants that want to join. Since we are unable to get together the plexes to bid on this only the most rich alliances will be able to join.
However there might be a lot of the 48 random alliances which might not necessarily be that keen to participate but are just happy to be part of it.
At the end the really motivated corporations might stay out due to the lack of spots.
It would have made way more sense to reduce the number of random draws.
If we loose the silent bid, my motivation for the game and the ally tournament will heavily be impacted as we cannot even switch corp to be still part of it.
I know this sounds like whining but what I definately lack is some balance between those who really want to participate and how some free slots might have been given to alliances which are not as motivated as we are. You might argue we just have to give a high bid on the silent bidding but we just cannot afford it.
Regards,
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Ilan Bashar
The Fields of Trenzalore Random Curse Maggots
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 18:48:33 -
[2] - Quote
Well,
I cannot understand what makes you believe that there is such thing as a random draw.
They made sure to have all them former alliance buddies in the tournament and all the "big names" and thats it. How likely is it to have like all three PL teams in the tournament (waffelshoardePL)?
CCP is very consequent in drawing conclusions from the past, where two teams from the same alliance fight each other. They make it three teams, that will improve things, for sure!
How ridiculous is that.
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suicide
The Exit Plan Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:48:37 -
[3] - Quote
The lack of arenas is the reason that all the teams that want to compete do not have a chance to compete.
A preliminary round could theoretically use a double-elimination format to get down to the correct number of teams (64) going into the tournament proper. |
M Foucault
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:49:47 -
[4] - Quote
People complaining that a random draw randomly selected alliances that they don't like so it must be favouritism.
Good job, keep on posting. |
Wil Aers
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:57:12 -
[5] - Quote
Ilan Bashar wrote:Well, I cannot understand what makes you believe that there is such thing as a random draw. They made sure to have all them former alliance buddies in the tournament and all the "big names" and thats it. How likely is it to have like all three PL teams in the tournament (waffelshoardePL)? CCP is very consequent in drawing conclusions from the past, where two teams from the same alliance fight each other. They make it three teams, that will improve things, for sure! How ridiculous is that.
you mad u goober? LOL |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
236
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Posted - 2015.06.12 23:15:57 -
[6] - Quote
Confirming we paid off CCP logiguy to pick waffles and horde
We used the proceeds we were paid to have Apothne and Elise be commentators again
Just be glad there is enough teams this year
Do you buy tin foil by the pound, roll or just per hat? |
KleinerHai
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 07:16:56 -
[7] - Quote
suicide wrote:The lack of arenas is the reason that all the teams that want to compete do not have a chance to compete.
A preliminary round could theoretically use a double-elimination format to get down to the correct number of teams (64) going into the tournament proper.
cannot agree more. |
Sivor Detmen
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
42
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Posted - 2015.06.13 07:28:05 -
[8] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Just be glad there is enough teams this year
More than enough teams this year it seems and it is a shame to have so many teams left out. With the arenas in place a preliminary round would have been the solution even if organized by players.
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Ilan Bashar
The Fields of Trenzalore Random Curse Maggots
0
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Posted - 2015.06.13 09:19:54 -
[9] - Quote
M Foucault wrote:People complaining that a random draw randomly selected alliances that they don't like so it must be favouritism. Good job, keep on posting.
Yes, that is the word I am looking for. "Favourism". Thank you Mr. WehavethreeteamsinAT. I honestly do not think it is corruption, only favourism.
From a mathematical standpoint, It is just remotely probable that some alliances have never ever been "drawn" in the past years, whereas others have ALL their teams in in the same year. Maybe my math is just wrong? Pls show your calculation!
Otherwise, the fact of having three teams in AT will lead to a lot of fake matches. Or shall I call it teams strategy? A situation we have seen before and CCP promised to make sure it will not happen again.
*I would like to precise that I take PL as an example, I appreciate the fact that PL is in AT and will provide great entertainment and most likely also beat my favourite crew.
No. I say mathematicaly, it has such a low probability that it allows for conclusions to be drawn. Plus the broken promise from CCP to make sure multiple teams from the same entity will not be allowed to manipulate AT again. Plus the fact that CCP made sure to directly assign >90% of the slots.
It is ridiculous. |
Bob Shaftoes
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
50
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Posted - 2015.06.13 15:42:28 -
[10] - Quote
*sigh*
I hate to white knight CCP , but there is simply no conspiracy to the way the draw is handled. Hell you can even watch the youtube vid of them making the draw FFS.
Fact of the matter is that there is now a sound financial reason to join the alliance tournament , in the form of the valuable ship skins, that are now attainable by the newer and less experienced teams. This has led to an uptick in the amount of applications and unfortunately this means that some really motivated teams will not get to participate. |
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KleinerHai
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 16:50:53 -
[11] - Quote
What I would really like is a statement from CCP.
Why was there no communication about which alliances have applied? Why have only 4 spots been left over for the silent auction? Why is the silent auction so short term? Why do we not know who is bidding? Why has the draw not be done publicly but just the result announced?
I do not doubt that the draw was done properly but the result definately does not feel correct!
You will miss some nice alliances and eventually you actually have 94% give away and the rest needs to bet like 20+ plexes to be in.
CCP do you thing this is fair? Does this feel right?
Regards,
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KleinerHai
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:00:10 -
[12] - Quote
Bob Shaftoes wrote:*sigh*
I hate to white knight CCP , but there is simply no conspiracy to the way the draw is handled. Hell you can even watch the youtube vid of them making the draw FFS.
Fact of the matter is that there is now a sound financial reason to join the alliance tournament , in the form of the valuable ship skins, that are now attainable by the newer and less experienced teams. This has led to an uptick in the amount of applications and unfortunately this means that some really motivated teams will not get to participate.
link the youtube- I am eager to see. Not that I do not trust it was drawn properly but I am just disappointed they decided to draw 48 spots!
Right, really motivated people who put in a lot of effort and will just quit the game cause the tournament is one of their main motivation to play this game! |
Sivor Detmen
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
42
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:01:08 -
[13] - Quote
KleinerHai wrote:What I would really like is a statement from CCP.
Why was there no communication about which alliances have applied? Why have only 4 spots been left over for the silent auction? Why is the silent auction so short term? Why do we not know who is bidding? Why has the draw not be done publicly but just the result announced? Why were some alliances allowed to have alt-alliances to join?
I do not doubt that the draw was done properly but the result definately does not feel correct!
You will miss some nice alliances and eventually you actually have 94% give away and the rest needs to bet like 20+ plexes to be in.
CCP do you thing this is fair? Does this feel right?
Regards,
The random draw was totally fair (check the vid). There was no wrongdoing or cherry picking of teams by CCP. The only real shame here is that lots of teams will be left out. |
Ilan Bashar
The Fields of Trenzalore Random Curse Maggots
0
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:12:16 -
[14] - Quote
Well,
The result is that in an event, called "Alliance Tournament" at least one entety can field several teams, resulting in leaving a lot other alliances teams outside.
So, how can this happen that a lot of alliances are left outside and others can field multiple teams?
IMO there are only two possible reasons: 1. CCP favours this situation 2. CCP has not the competence
I think no. 2 is not the case, as e.g. Fozzie, as an ex-PL member still knows the alliance landscape very well.
Are you in disagreement with me about the fact, that some entetys field several teams while others are left outside?
Are you in disagreement with me that several teams of the same entity will lead to a lot of fake matches? |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
93
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Posted - 2015.06.14 08:48:56 -
[15] - Quote
Bob Shaftoes wrote:*sigh*
I hate to white knight CCP , but there is simply no conspiracy to the way the draw is handled. Hell you can even watch the youtube vid of them making the draw FFS.
Fact of the matter is that there is now a sound financial reason to join the alliance tournament , in the form of the valuable ship skins, that are now attainable by the newer and less experienced teams. This has led to an uptick in the amount of applications and unfortunately this means that some really motivated teams will not get to participate. Well, you have two teams, so there's no way your opinion could be fair and balanced, right? ;)
I'm still trying to figure out who our fourth team could be, though. They might have some good setups we could use. |
Jeslothar
VendoLife End of Life
0
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Posted - 2015.06.14 10:02:41 -
[16] - Quote
I take umbrage at the statement below. As a team who has participated in two tournaments and was lucky to get into this draw we are extraordinarily motivated even if we are not the most pro team around. I doubt that any team that has joined is not giving it a red hot go based on what I have seen at test open practice.
However there might be a lot of the 48 random alliances which might not necessarily be that keen to participate but are just happy to be part of it.
It's also unfair to call pandemic horde an alt corp of PL when they are in fact as starter corp. I for one would love to play against PH.
One the topic of missing out I can understand that it sucks and I too would be very down in you place. I agree random draw is probably not the best way to select teams.
It would also be nice if there was a drafting time post draw. Allowing team captains to post for pilots with specific skills from teams that never made it In and allow transfers through a petition or something. However that is only going to add to the complexity for the volunteers at ccp.
Another option is to just let all teams enter then do a random draw for the 48 spots and instead of doing silent auction run a set of elimination matches for the last 4 spots.
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Jeslothar
VendoLife End of Life
0
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Posted - 2015.06.14 10:10:46 -
[17] - Quote
I take umbrage at the statement below. As a team who has participated in two tournaments and was lucky to get into this draw we are extraordinarily motivated even if we are not the most pro team around. I doubt that any team that has joined is not giving it a red hot go based on what I have seen at test open practice.
However there might be a lot of the 48 random alliances which might not necessarily be that keen to participate but are just happy to be part of it.
It's also unfair to call pandemic horde an alt corp of PL when they are in fact as starter corp. I for one would love to play against PH.
One the topic of missing out I can understand that it sucks and I too would be very down in you place. I agree random draw is probably not the best way to select teams.
It would also be nice if there was a drafting time post draw. Allowing team captains to post for pilots with specific skills from teams that never made it In and allow transfers through a petition or something. However that is only going to add to the complexity for the volunteers at ccp.
Another option is to just let all teams enter then do a random draw for the 48 spots and instead of doing silent auction run a set of elimination matches for the last 4 spots.
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Auto Maat
Lousy T-Shirt Corp
0
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Posted - 2015.06.14 13:31:54 -
[18] - Quote
As a team that has been left out I'm a bit disappointed about having only 4 spots for silent auction.
With this kind of setup of the tournament I feel like I have to do it like Pandemic Legion does:
Make alliances with alts to better my chances to get in.
Is the wish of the tournament to have like an all Pandemic Legion alt-parade?
Pandemic Legion is in Waffles is in (an alliance controlled by pandemic legion) Pademic Horde is in (an alliance controlled by pandemic legion) Nihilists Social Club is in (an alliance of pandemic legion alts)
All the while, other entities have to enter different alliances as one "because they're controlled by 1 entity". Like Gorgon Empire/Spawn.
The current random draw just makes everyone and their grandmother apply.
So even as a team if you're serious about AT you have to have the luck of the draw, and you see team that do it for ***** and giggles getting places.
Extremely frustrating.
If you wanted a better tournament you would give the top 16 places and then do an open auction for all the other places. |
Bei ArtJay
Questionable Circles Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
104
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Posted - 2015.06.15 09:51:29 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Logibro is a good guy and i am damn sure the draw was legit so this conspiracy it pointless in my opinion.
The fact that some good teams won't get in this year is however is really sad for me, this method is clearly is not suited to enable the most competitive tournament possible anymore.
It's fantastic to see that 90 teams have put themselves forward, proving there are potentially thousands of players interested in eve e-sports now, hopefully CCP take this and run with it. |
Nex Gaius
Origin. Black Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.06.15 10:51:47 -
[20] - Quote
If you can't afford the plex bid for the silent auction, how are you going to be able to afford the tournament itself, as for you partaking in the last 3 AT's I'm guessing before the limit to 3% implants you where prob had terrible clones to fight, I remember spending close to 6bil per clone.
Also So many places with the random draw (BL #1) it gave people like you a better chance to get in, so cry all you like you didnt win the lotto, gratz on being a whiny *****. |
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Archeras Umangiar
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
9
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Posted - 2015.06.15 11:09:23 -
[21] - Quote
Auto Maat wrote:As a team that has been left out I'm a bit disappointed about having only 4 spots for silent auction.
With this kind of setup of the tournament I feel like I have to do it like Pandemic Legion does:
Make alliances with alts to better my chances to get in.
Is the wish of the tournament to have like an all Pandemic Legion alt-parade?
Pandemic Legion is in Waffles is in (an alliance controlled by pandemic legion) Pademic Horde is in (an alliance controlled by pandemic legion) Nihilists Social Club is in (an alliance of pandemic legion alts)
All the while, other entities have to enter different alliances as one "because they're controlled by 1 entity". Like Gorgon Empire/Spawn.
The current random draw just makes everyone and their grandmother apply.
So even as a team if you're serious about AT you have to have the luck of the draw, and you see team that do it for ***** and giggles getting places.
Extremely frustrating.
If you wanted a better tournament you would give the top 16 places and then do an open auction for all the other places.
to clear this out
Nihilists social club IS NOT a PL alt alliance; no idea where you have that from, but i had to laugh |
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
1013
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Posted - 2015.06.15 12:05:41 -
[22] - Quote
For anyone that has not be able to find the video of the actual draw taking place, you can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5EZYFIIeJw
We will likely make further changes to the team selection process for the next Alliance Tournament, but the current process stands for this year. (I'll also remember to print bigger pieces of paper so you can see the team names properly next time).
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro
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Ilan Bashar
The Fields of Trenzalore Random Curse Maggots
0
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Posted - 2015.06.15 16:43:38 -
[23] - Quote
Hello CCP,
thank you for your video. I will comment on the video itself later. I think a process can be consided as a black box and be judged by the result.
The result is that some enteties have multiple teams. This is not what Alliance Tournament means to me personally, to me one enity has one team and not three official ones and whoknows how many alt teams. Eve is about winning, not fair competition. I thought AT was an attempt to promote EvE through esports, so fair competition a certain degree (aside spying ect.). I do acklowledge CCPs position that it is not - and exploiting the rules to the max is fair game. I hope CCP is aware that this disqualifies AT as an esports event.
60 of 64 teams came into the competition with no effort whatsoever, be it spacepew or pay money Only four places are open for teams not being favoured or lucky enough.
Looking at the list of former serious contenders who will not be able to participate and the above explained situation, I conclude that there is enough evidence to say that : The qualification process has delivered a very bad result. I think it is simply a very bad job to: *define and execute a new/modified process without review to spot the process flaws beforehand *achnowledge the obvious flaws but refuse to act on them *not to react on some stretching and bending the rules
So now to your video: It is for me just the proof of my acusation of very unreflected and poor work. I can make the following claims (which I do not even mean serious!): Not all the names had been put into the box. The video was simply shoot several times until the result suited you. Oh yeah I dont trust you and that surprises you.. only if you did not think enough beforehand.
Please specify the correct contact in customer service where I can complain about the bad work and discuss the consequences I draw from it.
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Greygal
Redemption Road Affirmative.
443
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Posted - 2015.06.15 18:55:49 -
[24] - Quote
I wonder if it occurs to anyone that part of the reason 90 teams entered this year's tournament is BECAUSE of the fact that the majority of the spots would be drawn randomly, instead of like prior years where half of the spots were random draw and half were blind auction?
Just a thought ...
Personally, I rather liked this setup because there was better odds of getting drawn. However, I detest the blind auction system, just detest it. I've ranted about it before and I've already exceeded my monthly wall-of-texts quota, so I won't rant about it here except to say if the tournament is going to continue to have an auction element, it really, really needs to be an open and/or live auction, with opportunities to up your bid.
What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.
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KleinerHai
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 19:38:23 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:For anyone that has not be able to find the video of the actual draw taking place, you can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5EZYFIIeJw We will likely make further changes to the team selection process for the next Alliance Tournament, but the current process stands for this year. (I'll also remember to print bigger pieces of paper so you can see the team names properly next time).
Thanks for the acknowledgement that the process this year was flawed! I do not believe the drawing process is faked but if you print bigger names, the people pulling out the names and looking into the box before pulling might even see the name they pull better! A pity you actually only find out once the damage is done. You could have asked any serious player of EVE and he would have pointed out the obvious. The point is the drawing is not bulletproof.
Here an easy process to make it more clear:
1) Before the drawing all participating alliances are officially named and are give a number. 2) You play Lotto? Well you know how to get out the numbers? (Bingo does it too :). 3) You announce upfront the drawing and you do it live.
Then you immediately notice that you leave a barely 4 slots and see the flaw upfront! Why increase the numbers drawn randomly rather than leave more spots for the silent auction?
I do not want to sound rude but honestly did you think this process through and talked it with some of you collegues before taking this decision?
So I stay frustrated with the current result and have not locked in any of my char for the last 3 days, just because I am frustrated how you treat players unfairly!
The ones which will make the draw will have paid a very high price join the tournament!
You know the solution to this problem: THERE IS NONE, you have screwed it up, unless you have the courage to change the rules NOW. (Hope is the last to die).
Regards, |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
94
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Posted - 2015.06.15 23:16:51 -
[26] - Quote
Ilan Bashar wrote:The result is that some enteties have multiple teams. You know, saying something over and over doesn't make it true. It's not like we are running a religion here. |
General Vachot
The Vendunari End of Life
6
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Posted - 2015.06.16 07:26:04 -
[27] - Quote
The most annoying thing about this thread is that you are trying to make an argument about something very important which stems back to how CCP views the Alliance tournament and their brand. Its just that you are screwing it up so badly with silly comments like this
"The ones which will make the draw will have paid a very high price join the tournament!"
We got in via the random draw. We paid like everyone else just 5 plex and I sat watching the o7 program waiting nervously for our name and sweating more as time went and our name never came out until very near the end.
Stick to your serious argument that the random draw is not the best solution and the silent auction is eve worse than the random draw because not all space rich alliances are even the best at AT style PVP.
To see things go back to totally silent auction would be terrible. In the end CCP needs to take the AT seriously if it wants to be a premier event and support their staff supporting the tournement.
Then you might be able to see something like the top 16 get seeded then the rest of the positions played for in some preliminary pvp method.
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Sivor Detmen
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
44
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Posted - 2015.06.16 08:04:26 -
[28] - Quote
General Vachot wrote:The most annoying thing about this thread is that you are trying to make an argument about something very important which stems back to how CCP views the Alliance tournament and their brand. Its just that you are screwing it up so badly with silly comments like this
"The ones which will make the draw will have paid a very high price join the tournament!"
We got in via the random draw. We paid like everyone else just 5 plex and I sat watching the o7 program waiting nervously for our name and sweating more as time went and our name never came out until very near the end.
Stick to your serious argument that the random draw is not the best solution and the silent auction is eve worse than the random draw because not all space rich alliances are even the best at AT style PVP.
To see things go back to totally silent auction would be terrible. In the end CCP needs to take the AT seriously if it wants to be a premier event and support their staff supporting the tournement.
Then you might be able to see something like the top 16 get seeded then the rest of the positions played for in some preliminary pvp method.
Couldn't agree more. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
94
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Posted - 2015.06.16 15:11:34 -
[29] - Quote
General Vachot wrote:Stick to your serious argument that the random draw is not the best solution and the silent auction is eve worse than the random draw because not all space rich alliances are even the best at AT style PVP. To be fair, participation in the AT was never about being good at arena pvp. While most of us enjoy that side of it, seeing some of the grudge matches that spill over from TQ politics can be a lot of fun too. |
Mr Spaxi
Meatshield Bastards The Bastards.
44
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Posted - 2015.06.16 16:00:07 -
[30] - Quote
I thought that tears were reserved for carebears, but it seems like PvPers cry as well. You people should be ashamed, if you wanted to be in the AT that desperately you should've farmed enough ISK to bid. #1 You failed to be in top 16 teams last year so you didn't secure any spot; #2 You weren't lucky enough to be drawn; #3 You failed to collect ISK in case all else fails.
Your fault, not CCPs. Stop wasting forum space with your tears.
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