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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
101
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:52:24 -
[31] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics.
No select the pirate/police ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. This statistic will show how many NPCs have been blown up in the last 24 hours. It is important because the ships that blow up in null are obviously not police and have some sort of bounty attached. It could also mean someone was running missions and had a faction mission, but obviously not in the most remote parts of null.
Next choose the statistic for "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours". This will show the player ships that have been destroyed in the last 24 hours.
There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data. If you're ok with incomplete data, sure. All kinds of important decisions are made with incomplete data. All you need is sufficient data for it to be effective. The in game map provides sufficient data for all sorts decisions. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38084
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 19:57:37 -
[32] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Ship destroyed /= gank related kill (Concord response) ...Concord kills a ship only if a criminal is sitting in it. so aside from a small number of people who jump into highsec having gained a criminal timer in lowsec (it's very embarrassing to make your fleet do when you are the FC), all losses to Concord are highsec criminals... Well ganking is risk free PVP in the other areas like, low sec and null too. The map also shows the activity in those areas, but I think most newer players will be interested to see how safe null sec appears to be. I think it will help players get a "heads up" for the most dangerous systems in EVE Online. Suicide ganking (Concord response) only exists in highsec.
Aside from that, if you're so certain that highsec is where the most danger is, let's take a challenge together. I'll send you an evemail so we keep the details private and no one can set a trap for us.
Let's both jump in a blingy ship each and then fly from the most dangerous highsec system by those stats (Jita) to the most dangerous nullsec system. That's usually YZ-LQL in Fountain, which happens to be NPC null surrounded by sov, so we'll be able to dock if we get there. We'll try to make the route involve an equal number of highsec (dangerous) and nullsec (safe) systems and then just see what happens.
I'm happy to do that and If we make it out of highsec, we should be safe right?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2511
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:03:21 -
[33] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Rowells wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics.
No select the pirate/police ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. This statistic will show how many NPCs have been blown up in the last 24 hours. It is important because the ships that blow up in null are obviously not police and have some sort of bounty attached. It could also mean someone was running missions and had a faction mission, but obviously not in the most remote parts of null.
Next choose the statistic for "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours". This will show the player ships that have been destroyed in the last 24 hours.
There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data. If you're ok with incomplete data, sure. All kinds of important decisions are made with incomplete data. All you need is sufficient data for it to be effective. The in game map provides sufficient data for all sorts decisions. Ok I'll correct myself. If you like insufficient data then.
"Look there's a cloud in the sky. I predict there will be a category 3 hurricane tonight, with a moderate chance of holy rapture" |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
101
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:03:26 -
[34] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Ship destroyed /= gank related kill (Concord response) ...Concord kills a ship only if a criminal is sitting in it. so aside from a small number of people who jump into highsec having gained a criminal timer in lowsec (it's very embarrassing to make your fleet do when you are the FC), all losses to Concord are highsec criminals... Well ganking is risk free PVP in the other areas like, low sec and null too. The map also shows the activity in those areas, but I think most newer players will be interested to see how safe null sec appears to be. I think it will help players get a "heads up" for the most dangerous systems in EVE Online. Suicide ganking (Concord response) only exists in highsec. Aside from that, if you're so certain that highsec is where the most danger is, let's take a challenge together. I'll send you an evemail so we keep the details private and no one can set a trap for us. Let's both jump in a blingy ship each and then fly from the most dangerous highsec system by those stats (Jita) to the most dangerous nullsec system. That's usually YZ-LQL in Fountain, which happens to be NPC null surrounded by sov, so we'll be able to dock if we get there. We'll try to make the route involve an equal number of highsec (dangerous) and nullsec (safe) systems and then just see what happens. I'm happy to do that and If we make it out of highsec, we should be safe right? Oh I've lived out in Null sec. I know how safe it can be. You don't get to kill over 5k pirate faction ships, with only ~20 players in the system, if it is "dangerous". Concord can contribute to ship loss, but the data doesn't say all high sec and low sec ship losses are from Concord.
Do you get killed by Concord often or something? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13410
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:03:31 -
[35] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.
Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
101
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:04:40 -
[36] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Rowells wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics.
No select the pirate/police ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. This statistic will show how many NPCs have been blown up in the last 24 hours. It is important because the ships that blow up in null are obviously not police and have some sort of bounty attached. It could also mean someone was running missions and had a faction mission, but obviously not in the most remote parts of null.
Next choose the statistic for "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours". This will show the player ships that have been destroyed in the last 24 hours.
There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data. If you're ok with incomplete data, sure. All kinds of important decisions are made with incomplete data. All you need is sufficient data for it to be effective. The in game map provides sufficient data for all sorts decisions. Ok I'll correct myself. If you like insufficient data then. "Look there's a cloud in the sky. I predict there will be a category 3 hurricane tonight, with a moderate chance of holy rapture" Not even close. It's more like News says big storm is headed east. I'm 20 miles east of said location. I might get some rain. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
101
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:05:34 -
[37] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote: There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.
Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest. Data is neutral. It can not lie. It can be misinterpreted though. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2511
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:09:22 -
[38] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote: There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.
Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest. Data is neutral. It can not lie. It can be misinterpreted though. Dear god the irony.
Ok, you got me. I bit.
9/10 |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13410
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:09:24 -
[39] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote: There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.
Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest. Data is neutral. It can not lie. It can be misinterpreted though.
The "data" is not even remotely in context. Someone could say, based on that, that trade hubs are "more dangerous", but they'd still be wrong, because they don't know all of it.
As was pointed out to you earlier in the thread, those numbers take into account losses involving Concord, which makes the data rather invalid for the point you were trying to make. And again, as was mentioned earlier, Concord kills more than anything else in the game the vast majority of days. Only on days like Titanomachy are they dethroned from the top spot.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38084
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:09:27 -
[40] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Oh I've lived out in Null sec. I know how safe it can be. You don't get to kill over 5k pirate faction ships, with only ~20 players in the system, if it is "dangerous". Concord can contribute to ship loss, but the data doesn't say all high sec and low sec ship losses are from Concord. Do you get killed by Concord often or something? Great, you'll be up for the challenge then?
No, the data is not representing only Concord losses, though I'm confused as to what Concord losses in lowsec you are referring to?
As to me, you can check my killboard easily to see if I am ever killed by Concord. I don't play in highsec, so the answer is no, but the evidence is easy to look at.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
104
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:12:40 -
[41] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Oh I've lived out in Null sec. I know how safe it can be. You don't get to kill over 5k pirate faction ships, with only ~20 players in the system, if it is "dangerous". Concord can contribute to ship loss, but the data doesn't say all high sec and low sec ship losses are from Concord. Do you get killed by Concord often or something? Great, you'll be up for the challenge then? No, the data is not representing only Concord losses, though I'm confused as to what Concord losses in lowsec you are referring to? As to me, you can check my killboard easily to see if I am ever killed by Concord. I don't play in highsec, so the answer is no, but the evidence is easy to look at. Are you saying Concord kills ships in null sec? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38084
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:21:03 -
[42] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Are you saying Concord kills ships in null sec? That would be an idiotic thing to say, so of course not.
I sent you a mail so we can get this challenge up and running.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
104
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:24:20 -
[43] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Are you saying Concord kills ships in null sec? That would be an idiotic thing to say, so of course not. I sent you a mail so we can get this challenge up and running. It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too. I invite all players to open their maps and see for themselves. Let them with their own resources determine what the data says. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38086
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:26:47 -
[44] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too... No one has said that, so we don't need to be concerned there I guess.
I'd be surprised if many people need to open the map at all to understand whether highsec is more or less dangerous than nullsec, but those stats don't really help much anyway.
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
104
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:29:49 -
[45] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too... No one has said that, so we don't need to be concerned there I guess. Welcome to the club then friend. Pull up a chair and relax. The data is good. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38086
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:36:17 -
[46] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Welcome to the club then friend. Pull up a chair and relax. The data is good. No reply mail yet?
As to the data, the raw data is just the raw data. No mistakes in it. Interpretation of the data is a whole other issue. A blanket conclusion that highsec is more dangerous than nullsec is pretty funny.
However, if you are concerned about flying a ship in highsec, then we can use scouts or whatever to mitigate the risk while we are in highsec. I'm happy to accomodate whatever risk management you would like in the highsec part of our test.
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Mag's
the united
19571
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:03:09 -
[47] - Quote
So to recap, Concord remains the biggest killing Corp in High sec and clouds don't always mean rain.
Cool.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
105
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:26:32 -
[48] - Quote
Mag's wrote:So to recap, Concord remains the biggest killing Corp in High sec and clouds don't always mean rain. Cool. Not if you count low sec ship loss |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
158
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:39:22 -
[49] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:It would be an idiotic thing to say all ship losses in high sec are Concord kills too... No one has said that, so we don't need to be concerned there I guess. I'd be surprised if many people need to open the map at all to understand whether highsec is more or less dangerous than nullsec, but those stats don't really help much anyway.
Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player *****'s on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too?
What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too.
Where does the madness end?
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38088
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:46:30 -
[50] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player *****'s on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too? What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too. Where does the madness end? We're a few pages into the thread now, so the general idea of the discussion to this point is easy to miss.
I'm not discounting any kills. All the kills stand. It's good of Aza to acknowledge that ganking is a dangerous activity and far from risk free pvp. Looking at the stats and his line of analysis, it would be reasonable to conclude that ganking is the most dangerous form of pvp in the game and gankers take huge risks in their activities. Very erudite of him in that regard.
As to rat losses, yes they are all shown on the in game map and the bulk of them occur in highsec (there's even a new player mission where it's a 100% chance of losing a ship). None of that is being discounted at all. The raw data is just the raw data. Understanding what the figures include and what that means is something different.
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1691
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:50:38 -
[51] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec? no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills?
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
105
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:05:17 -
[52] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player *****'s on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too? What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too. Where does the madness end? We're a few pages into the thread now, so the general idea of the discussion to this point is easy to miss. I'm not discounting any kills. All the kills stand. It's good of Aza to acknowledge that ganking is a dangerous activity( in high sec) and far from risk free pvp( in high sec). Looking at the stats and his line of analysis, it would be reasonable to conclude that ganking is the most dangerous form of pvp in high sec and gankers take huge risks in their activities( in high sec). Very erudite of him in that regard. As to rat losses, yes they are all shown on the in game map and the bulk of them occur in highsec (there's even a new player mission where it's a 100% chance of losing a ship). None of that is being discounted at all. The raw data is just the raw data. Understanding what the figures include and what that means is something different. I don't know about the point about most NPCs being destroyed in high sec. A significant amount are being destroyed in null and we don't have WH data. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13411
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:06:21 -
[53] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec? no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills?
That'd be the glory of drones, wouldn't it? The only weapon system that defends you without you having to do anything.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38088
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:12:35 -
[54] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec? no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills? I've never said there's not enough people to have significant ship loss.
Yeah but maybe I'll ask the same question. So what in relation to the number of NPC kills in nullsec?
There's lots of belt/gate ratting, combat site running and some missioning happening. Everyone knows that. But are people not allowed to do what they want in nullsec? Does what people are doing to earn ISK or grind status, or whatever; have to be a wedge to drive silly division in the forum community?
I do t personally see why it matters what anyone I doing. Good on anyone no matter how they earn their ISK. It's kind of a necessary evil for us all.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
158
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:30:48 -
[55] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Wait? Are we going to let it stand if a real player *****'s on the concord kill? Or do we draw the line on anything with concord in it? What about if a Empire Faction ship is on the kill too? What if the null sec ship is killed while ratting, the belt rat would probably be top damage. Oh noes, we gotta throw that one out too. Where does the madness end? We're a few pages into the thread now, so the general idea of the discussion to this point is easy to miss. I'm not discounting any kills. All the kills stand. It's good of Aza to acknowledge that ganking is a dangerous activity and far from risk free pvp. Looking at the stats and his line of analysis, it would be reasonable to conclude that ganking is the most dangerous form of pvp in the game and gankers take huge risks in their activities. Very erudite of him in that regard. As to rat losses, yes they are all shown on the in game map and the bulk of them occur in highsec (there's even a new player mission where it's a 100% chance of losing a ship). None of that is being discounted at all. The raw data is just the raw data. Understanding what the figures include and what that means is something different.
That is good to understand. Ganking is a valid and worthwhile activity. it serves a purpose. It also happens to be one of the biggest reasons for kills in high-sec.
So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe? There are at least 4500 Concord kills the past 7 days. I wouldn't call that safe. But extrapolating that out, we are in week 26 right? So 117k kills this year of the 1.8 million total kills are from gankers dying to concord.
So if we were to remove those, still High-sec has the most raw number of kills, even without CCP's data on total isk lost being weighted to High Sec as well.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13413
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:32:58 -
[56] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe?
Because there are Concord kills in the first place. If highsec weren't so nauseatingly safe, there would be a lot less Concord kills, and a lot more player kills.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
105
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:36:24 -
[57] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:March rabbit wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Why is it important that people in nullsec are ratting? Is that not a valid playstyle for someone in nullsec? no trolling but you said it by yourself: there is not enough people to have significant ship kills. But enough to hav esignificant NPC kills? That'd be the glory of drones, wouldn't it? The only weapon system that defends you without you having to do anything. Well drones are part of game design. So if thats what CCP wanted, then that is fine as they are designed to do that. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
159
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe?
Because there are Concord kills in the first place. If highsec weren't so nauseatingly safe, there would be a lot less Concord kills, and a lot more player kills.
OK, I didn't realize that if Concord was on a mail the intended attacker must not have killed his prey.
FYI, concord has nothing to do with making high-sec safe or not. There is no concord in 0.0 yet there is more kills in High-sec? Maybe Concord sleeps on the job too much?
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38089
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:38:22 -
[59] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:So if we were to remove those, still High-sec has the most raw number of kills, even without CCP's data on total isk lost being weighted to High Sec as well. Don't remove those kills. If we did that, then we could discuss removing all NPC kills (eg. Kills in burner missions in high which are totally optional and have no downside to rejecting, but which aren't available at all in nullsec), etc.
Easier to keep all the figures and if the conclusion is that highsec is more dangerous then nullsec, that conclusion would also represent suicide ganking as being a dangerous activity and not risk free pvp.
If that was a conclusion everyone could agree too, then this is one of the most useful threads in a long time. That would actually start to reduce division in the forum and bring us all towards a consensus. That would be a very good outcome.
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
105
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 22:38:46 -
[60] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: So, if there are so many Concord kills, how could Highsec possibly be so safe?
Because there are Concord kills in the first place. If highsec weren't so nauseatingly safe, there would be a lot less Concord kills, and a lot more player kills. Sad. There's no data to lend any validity to your statements. |
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