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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13445
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Posted - 2015.06.15 01:45:18 -
[151] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Then by your very definition a Miner is a PVPer
Nope. Next time, try reading the whole post.
I they're sweeping a belt before other people can get there, maybe. But if they're just sitting there chewing on the rocks? No.
Quote: Also, wanted to quote this in case you try and claim later that you are not a DB or arse when clearly your opinion of your fellow players screams otherwise.
What, that I don't think most miners are real players? I've been on record for that for a long time. I also think that doing it for too long engenders mental illness.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
203
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Posted - 2015.06.15 01:46:41 -
[152] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:That's the only sense I can make of what you're saying and it doesn't meddle with the standard notion of risk having to do with loss. If you want to look, go look at the literature. Don't take mine or anyone's else's word for it. There are a lot more examples that are better too. Most that I could link won't be accessible to everyone so it's pointless to link (and the link I provided before was working and now isn't. It's a Penn State University service and out of my control. So maybe click it again later is the only thing I can suggest as the paper isn't accessible on the author's website either). Maximising benefit through risk management is as much a use for the framework as minimizing loss. They are often (as in your use) tied together, but that isn't a requirement for use of the framework. Taking opportunities and resilience management are often tied into the same concept and approach. Different words for what the risk management framework includes within its overall scope. But we are off topic. We need to go back to misrepresenting statistics to drive division in the community. I'm all out of ideas on that at the moment, but I'm sure someone will drop something in this thread we can all disagree on.
As a forensic financial auditor I laugh at your definition in terms of risk management. But here, let's have the industry tell you.
http://www.productionmachining.com/articles/deal-differently-with-certainty-risk-and-uncertainty
When dealing with certainty, there are no risks and as such we have one choice, comply or do not comply. There is no calculation.
http://www.citeman.com/4587-certainty-risk-and-uncertainty.html
With certainty we know the costs beforehand and prepare to deal with them. With Risk assessment is the expectation of a range of uncertainties, if known we can prepare to mitigate or manage them.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38119
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Posted - 2015.06.15 01:49:47 -
[153] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:As a forensic financial auditor I laugh at your definition in terms of risk management. But here, let's have the industry tell you. It's not my definition.
So knock your socks off. It's the ISO standard definition. Go argue with them all you like.
I think being a Forensic Financial Auditor is somehow supposed to impress and give you credibility in this argument. It doesn't in particular. We all come from different backgrounds and I'm sure there are many people in this forum with expertise in risk management (it's a function every single person performs on a daily basis even subconsciously).
So to laugh at an internationally agreed definition is fine. Not everyone is going to agree with the majority view. It would be a boring World if that was the case.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
783
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Posted - 2015.06.15 01:50:14 -
[154] - Quote
The definition of risk is reading this thread while cancer free.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
206
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Posted - 2015.06.15 01:50:15 -
[155] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics. ...
Can't manage what you don't measure.
Plus it's nice to be curious and wonder about what the numbers mean.
Every MMO I've played has mostly been about carebear playstyles, I don't mean the term in a disparaging way, although it's often used as such. EVE is the same. I'd expect at least half of all players to be predominantly carebear, and for every player to carebear at some point, just for variety if for no other reason.
The amount of ship kills are a fun number but need some manipulation in order to compare with other areas.
To assess the risk we need to look at frequency of traffic through the area. Then we can start looking at ship kills as a % of traffic.
What would be really fun is finding the most dangerous system in EVE using that balancing.
There may be a system out there that is over 90% fatal for every ship going into it, but has very light traffic. Or it may be that the most dangerous system only kills 30% of through traffic.
For me it's important to have places I never go. An unexplored frontier, a horizon to fetch, even if I never do. But it would be lovely to explore the world of numbers more.
~
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Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox.
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~
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
127
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Posted - 2015.06.15 01:53:09 -
[156] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics. ...
Can't manage what you don't measure. Plus it's nice to be curious and wonder about what the numbers mean. Every MMO I've played has mostly been about carebear playstyles, I don't mean the term in a disparaging way, although it's often used as such. EVE is the same. I'd expect at least half of all players to be predominantly carebear, and for every player to carebear at some point, just for variety if for no other reason. The amount of ship kills are a fun number but need some manipulation in order to compare with other areas. To assess the risk we need to look at frequency of traffic through the area. Then we can start looking at ship kills as a % of traffic. What would be really fun is finding the most dangerous system in EVE using that balancing. There may be a system out there that is over 90% fatal for every ship going into it, but has very light traffic. Or it may be that the most dangerous system only kills 30% of through traffic. For me it's important to have places I never go. An unexplored frontier, a horizon to fetch, even if I never do. But it would be lovely to explore the world of numbers more. It used to be Rancer. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
168
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Posted - 2015.06.15 02:11:35 -
[157] - Quote
i don't get the point of this thread.
Just Add Water
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38120
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Posted - 2015.06.15 02:13:24 -
[158] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:i don't get what is the point of this thread. It's basically.
Make stuff up and then disagree with that same point and well as any others.
All the cool kids are doing it. Jump right in.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
860
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Posted - 2015.06.15 06:02:58 -
[159] - Quote
Another one: does it mean that hisec is more dangerous if it has more careless folks flying something capable of dying to stuff like Tornado with just 8 rounds of ammo on board, and therefore getting killed?
Point being, if you fly same ships in null and hisec, in the same way, you probably will die in null sooner, in average. Not sure if that counts as being more safe or not. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
413
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Posted - 2015.06.15 06:52:46 -
[160] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Ship destroyed /= gank related kill What? Concord kills a ship only if a criminal is sitting in it. so aside from a small number of people who jump into highsec having gained a criminal timer in lowsec (it's very embarrassing to make your fleet do when you are the FC), all losses to Concord are highsec criminals. So it's good to see gankers get recognition for the danger they face, since those losses are part of the stats that show how dangerous highsec is. Good that the OP acknowledges that ganking is not risk free pvp and is really quite dangerous. Well ganking is risk free PVP in the other areas like, low sec and null too. The map also shows the activity in those areas, but I think most newer players will be interested to see how safe null sec appears to be. I think it will help players get a "heads up" for the most dangerous systems in EVE Online.
You are the true champion of giving bad advice to new players. For that alone you should be banned from these forums. |
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
998
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Posted - 2015.06.15 07:01:01 -
[161] - Quote
There's no doubt OPs threads are entertaining.
@OP: If you are serious about helping players, put at least some effort into it and post a short guide in NCQA.
Remove insurance.
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
149
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Posted - 2015.06.15 07:16:05 -
[162] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:There's no doubt OPs threads are entertaining. @OP: If you are serious about helping players, put at least some effort into it and post a short guide in NCQA. Oh I will, but this thread is not just for new players, it is for folks to decide for themselves what ingame map data says. I can't help it if people find it informative. Maybe I should have titled it: "What does the map data say to you?"
I think we as a player base wait for CCP to give us data when we have access to it through in-game means. Players don't have to accept what they hear, now they can see for themselves. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
165
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Posted - 2015.06.15 20:32:05 -
[163] - Quote
**********More New Data********
To recap: the feedback from the previous data held criticisms of not including certain activities when coming to conclusions with data. This time I invite you to click on the escape pods destroyed in the last 24 hours. Now with this data and knowledge about the game, we can see that some areas of high sec and low sec have more pod kills in them than most null sec systems. This is particularly interesting because, warp bubbles, a significant tool used in null sec to make killing capsules easier, are not allowed in low sec and highl sec. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38137
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Posted - 2015.06.15 21:18:24 -
[164] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:**********More New Data********
To recap: the feedback from the previous data held criticisms of not including certain activities when coming to conclusions with data. This time I invite you to click on the escape pods destroyed in the last 24 hours. Now with this data and knowledge about the game, we can see that some areas of high sec and low sec have more pod kills in them than most null sec systems. This is particularly interesting because, warp bubbles, a significant tool used in null sec to make killing capsules easier, are not allowed in low sec and highl sec. People travelling in nullsec take steps to avoid such things rather than blindly warp into them.
Player smarts beat mechanics, which isn't surprising.
It's surprising that so many people lose pods in highsec when the number should be near 0 because pod loss is so easy to avoid. That's also mostly true in lowsec except for smart bombs.
But lag, panic, AFK, unlucky, etc. can happen. True of anywhere.
The main reasons for the difference are most likely population distribution and different ways to manage risk in each sec space. High and low don't need to avoid bubbles so it's not surprising that the methods of travel are different.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23933
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Posted - 2015.06.15 22:08:15 -
[165] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:we can see that some areas of high sec and low sec have more pod kills in them than most null sec systems. Population density is a major factor, especially for hisec when compared to nullsec; the lowsec kills will have occurred in FW systems and the highsec>lowsec entry points for the most part.
If you take your figures and use the oft touted 75% of players are in hisec as a guide you'll probably find that hisec has less pod explosions per capita.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38137
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Posted - 2015.06.15 23:03:27 -
[166] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If you take your figures and use the oft touted 75% of players are in hisec as a guide you'll probably find that hisec has less pod explosions per capita. Yes, this is spot on.
The likelihood of losing a pod on a per ship loss basis is highest in nullsec.
The current Dotlan figures:
http://puu.sh/iqjlS/8b71e4f333.jpg
In nullsec, the ratio of ship loss to pod loss in the most active systems approaches 2:1, or 1 pod dying for every 2 ships (some systems the ratio is closer then that).
In highsec, Jita rivals that, but afterwards, the ratio increases to between 3:1 for trade hubs to 10:1 up to 100:1.
In lowsec, the ratio is on the order of 3:1 to 5:1 except for Tama, which has the best gate camp in the game.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1099
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Posted - 2015.06.16 00:16:53 -
[167] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: You just gave me a wonderful idea for a new CCP marketing campaign. How about instead of big fleet battles, CCP produce a PVE stalker video. The player could be stalking some mission runner, or sitting at a gatecamp. And they could explain the dynamics of this kind of gameplay while the action is going on. Then after the kill they could finish the commercial with a big bold "This is EVE!" .
I'm sure they'd sell 10x more subs that way!.
But yes the ingame map can be used to hunt PVE players, wartargets, industrialist, etc....
I think i could make a very good clip about stalking ratters, extorting PVE pilots for isk and shutting down economic activity with violence or the threat of it. It could have brooding music and some spectacular cloak/decloak animations. Then some Skrillex as torp bombers jump battleships, recons appear and waste solo roamers. A miner gets probed down and tackled, sure that would be great. It would only appeal to a slice of the market though and wouldn't be as simply ego power tripping as the butterfly effect one, or that one where the ganked guy robs the alliance. So no, 10x more subs is hyperbole. Of course you missed or dodged my point: hisec is not actually more dangerous than anywhere. This pointing at raw stats and reading them like an elementary student is an old troll. Out of empire, out you go.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
165
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Posted - 2015.06.16 00:23:43 -
[168] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote: You just gave me a wonderful idea for a new CCP marketing campaign. How about instead of big fleet battles, CCP produce a PVE stalker video. The player could be stalking some mission runner, or sitting at a gatecamp. And they could explain the dynamics of this kind of gameplay while the action is going on. Then after the kill they could finish the commercial with a big bold "This is EVE!" .
I'm sure they'd sell 10x more subs that way!.
But yes the ingame map can be used to hunt PVE players, wartargets, industrialist, etc....
I think i could make a very good clip about stalking ratters, extorting PVE pilots for isk and shutting down economic activity with violence or the threat of it. It could have brooding music and some spectacular cloak/decloak animations. Then some Skrillex as torp bombers jump battleships, recons appear and waste solo roamers. A miner gets probed down and tackled, sure that would be great. It would only appeal to a slice of the market though and wouldn't be as simply ego power tripping as the butterfly effect one, or that one where the ganked guy robs the alliance. So no, 10x more subs is hyperbole. Of course you missed or dodged my point: hisec is not actually more dangerous than anywhere. This pointing at raw stats and reading them like an elementary student is an old troll. Out of empire, out you go. Dude you should total capture that and send it to CCP for footage. It might only appeal to 10%, but I think that is the audience CCP is looking for. |
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