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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1933
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Posted - 2015.06.18 23:14:17 -
[61] - Quote
Dr Cedric wrote: I understand fully that adding another logi ship will mean that much more HP repped per cycle and that it will always add up. Bringing another Logi ship will ALWAYS mean more HP repped. What I want is for that to NOT happen. I want too much logi to be a waste of fleet space! That's the whole point of the ideas I'm presenting here!
No. A trillion logi won't rep more than your full buffer per tick
Dr Cedric wrote: I don't want plate buffered Domi's or NApocs or Mega's that sit and get 30x4 remote reps and take an entire fleet-worth of DPS for 3 minutes before the FC decides to switch targets. If a whole fleet targets an opposing ship, it should absolutely explode, regardless of how many Logi is on it, the only question should be "how soon?"
Why bring logi if they are guaranteed to fail?
Dr Cedric wrote: My ideas are trying to accomplish a diminished return where there is a "best" number of logi for a given fleet doctrine, rather than "more is always better."
Why should logi have to have a cap when every other role can basically always be better with more?
Dr Cedric wrote:
I don't fit 6 Kinetic hardners on my Ratting ship because I've wasted valuable space and Im not getting that much better of a return on 6 compared to just 3 and using those other slots for something else worthwhile. Why should a fleet not have to make the same decisions and find the best composition of Damage, tank and support?
Fleet doctrine are already based on that. You know that right? |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
93
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Posted - 2015.06.18 23:59:25 -
[62] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Fleet doctrine are already based on that. You know that right?
This dude knows very little about large fleet combat, that was made abundantly clear after my initial posts and his ignoring of my actual constructive feedback of his OP.
This man, just like the others before him suggesting the exact same thing cannot grasp a few basic concepts or somehow feel they are unfair mechanics because it forces smaller groups to band together to fight larger entities.
1) There will always be power in numbers, even if you break them up into smaller groups. To fight someone larger than yourself you either need a superior strategy or more friends. 2) Weakening logistics too much will either make them obsolete or force fleets to bring a larger number of logistics. -Forcing fights to become simple slug fests is not challenging nor fun as you quickly lose fleet variety. -Requiring more logistics hurts the smaller entity even more than you currently believe to be the case (which is untrue anyway) 3) Some players enjoy the challenge of keeping others alive more than simply hitting F1 and watching a target go boom. 4) EWAR exists - use it! -Logi can't handle incoming damage - damps, TD, ECM -DPS can't break logi - void bombs, neuts, damps, ECM 5) Not all fights have to be long drawn out brawls
All the tools exist for smaller entities to take on larger ones. Pick your battles. Pick your comp wisely. Do not go in expecting your lesser fleet to inflict casualties using the same strategies as a larger entity, those comps were not designed for your numbers. Come up with something that works! Even if you have to resort to gorilla tactics using nothing but bombers or agile snipers with high alpha and no logi. There are ways to inflict damage with minimal risk of your limited assets. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16243
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:44:06 -
[63] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote: All the tools exist for smaller entities to take on larger ones.
They really don't. Toss a fleet of 100 up against a fleet of 250 and the 100 will die. If you can beat the enemies logi then you simply dont engage because you will simply lose the fleet for nothing. The problem only gets worse the bigger the ships you use with super fleets being utterly invincible vs a subcap fleet of any number.
Logi needs nerfed but not in a dumb way as on the scale of small gangs it works just fine. Limiting broadcasts for repairs to squad only means you cant coordinate your logi on the large scale effectively but also means small gangs see no change at all. This means a smaller fleet can at the very least cause damage to larger ones which is a lot better than what we have today.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1933
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:01:11 -
[64] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote: All the tools exist for smaller entities to take on larger ones.
They really don't. Toss a fleet of 100 up against a fleet of 250 and the 100 will die. If you can beat the enemies logi then you simply dont engage because you will simply lose the fleet for nothing. The problem only gets worse the bigger the ships you use with super fleets being utterly invincible vs a subcap fleet of any number. Logi needs nerfed but not in a dumb way as on the scale of small gangs it works just fine. Limiting broadcasts for repairs to squad only means you cant coordinate your logi on the large scale effectively but also means small gangs see no change at all. This means a smaller fleet can at the very least cause damage to larger ones which is a lot better than what we have today.
So you would be happy with just opening the kill window by a few seconds since that's what limiting rep broadcast would do? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16244
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:16:05 -
[65] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
So you would be happy with just opening the kill window by a few seconds since that's what limiting rep broadcast would do?
It does more than that. I well remember the chaos of asking for reps before we got the fleet wide broadcasts, reducing them to squad only will result in far messier fights.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Ben Ishikela
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 03:33:57 -
[66] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote: All the tools exist for smaller entities to take on larger ones.
They really don't. Toss a fleet of 100 up against a fleet of 250 and the 100 will die. If you can beat the enemies logi then you simply dont engage because you will simply lose the fleet for nothing. The problem only gets worse the bigger the ships you use with super fleets being utterly invincible vs a subcap fleet of any number. Logi needs nerfed but not in a dumb way as on the scale of small gangs it works just fine. Limiting broadcasts for repairs to squad only means you cant coordinate your logi on the large scale effectively but also means small gangs see no change at all. This means a smaller fleet can at the very least cause damage to larger ones which is a lot better than what we have today.
Althou i like your statement and the prospect of messier fights. However with stacking penalties on remote resist assist you have nearly the same effect. (we all know that more than 4 modules of the same type is worthless). Only 3-4 logi can (efficiently) "help out" a victim. Also i love ewar.
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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Ben Ishikela
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 03:42:17 -
[67] - Quote
Another thing: Yesterday my corp and me wanted to roam. I asked if they want me to bring logi. They replied: "no, its too powerful and we wont get fights.". (kind of like ewar)
There is this minimum dps requirement that some enemy fleets has to meet. Then sometimes its one fight less...... (ofc there are ways like cloaked basilisk/etc.)
Disclaimer: I am speaking of lowsec here (not null). As there are less tools available to "force" a fight. Both parties have to kind of "agree" to engage or nothing will happen.
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
93
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Posted - 2015.06.19 04:32:08 -
[68] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote: All the tools exist for smaller entities to take on larger ones.
They really don't. Toss a fleet of 100 up against a fleet of 250 and the 100 will die. If you can beat the enemies logi then you simply dont engage because you will simply lose the fleet for nothing. The problem only gets worse the bigger the ships you use with super fleets being utterly invincible vs a subcap fleet of any number. Logi needs nerfed but not in a dumb way as on the scale of small gangs it works just fine. Limiting broadcasts for repairs to squad only means you cant coordinate your logi on the large scale effectively but also means small gangs see no change at all. This means a smaller fleet can at the very least cause damage to larger ones which is a lot better than what we have today.
I suppose I should have said "they can inflict casualties to larger entities," not "take on" in the sense most people seem to envision of actually standing toe to toe against. Of course they can't do that. I didn't think people wouldn't be able to pick up on that.
FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs. |
Ben Ishikela
44
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Posted - 2015.06.19 05:35:14 -
[69] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote: FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs.
If WL=warlosses, then consider this might be a very promising thing. +for economy +for attrition - player wallet
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1117
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Posted - 2015.06.19 05:59:33 -
[70] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Logi needs nerfed but not in a dumb way as on the scale of small gangs it works just fine. Limiting broadcasts for repairs to squad only means you cant coordinate your logi on the large scale effectively but also means small gangs see no change at all. This means a smaller fleet can at the very least cause damage to larger ones which is a lot better than what we have today.
Limiting broadcasts to squad only is one way to do it. Another way would be to limit maximum fleet size to 50 members.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1117
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Posted - 2015.06.19 06:00:38 -
[71] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:
FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs.
Watchlists are capped at 15, right?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
93
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Posted - 2015.06.19 06:46:10 -
[72] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:
FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs.
Watchlists are capped at 15, right?
I think so, but I'm unsure I'm not a fan of large WLs either way. Limited broadcasts would need to be balanced somehow tho, I'd imagine rather than expanding WLs that having fleet shield/armor/structure appear in the fleet window similar to drones in space/bay would be one way.
That way vigilant logi would be able to apply reps without the need for broadcasting. While lazy or slow logistics would basically not be able to accomplish anything at all. |
Kenrailae
Fallen Reich
370
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Posted - 2015.06.19 10:09:55 -
[73] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:
FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs.
Watchlists are capped at 15, right? I think so, but I'm unsure I'm not a fan of large WLs either way. Limited broadcasts would need to be balanced somehow tho, I'd imagine rather than expanding WLs that having fleet shield/armor/structure appear in the fleet window similar to drones in space/bay would be one way. That way vigilant logi would be able to apply reps without the need for broadcasting. While lazy or slow logistics would basically not be able to accomplish anything at all.
That is actually a very interesting idea. I like it
The Law is a point of View
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1935
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Posted - 2015.06.19 11:18:35 -
[74] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:
FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs.
Watchlists are capped at 15, right? I think so, but I'm unsure I'm not a fan of large WLs either way. Limited broadcasts would need to be balanced somehow tho, I'd imagine rather than expanding WLs that having fleet shield/armor/structure appear in the fleet window similar to drones in space/bay would be one way. That way vigilant logi would be able to apply reps without the need for broadcasting. While lazy or slow logistics would basically not be able to accomplish anything at all.
You mean enabling people to see the health status of their whole fleet members not limited by WL size? I know fantasy MMOs uusually do it that way but I don't know how it would result in EVE. |
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
108
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Posted - 2015.06.19 18:51:33 -
[75] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:
FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs.
Watchlists are capped at 15, right? I think so, but I'm unsure I'm not a fan of large WLs either way. Limited broadcasts would need to be balanced somehow tho, I'd imagine rather than expanding WLs that having fleet shield/armor/structure appear in the fleet window similar to drones in space/bay would be one way. That way vigilant logi would be able to apply reps without the need for broadcasting. While lazy or slow logistics would basically not be able to accomplish anything at all. You mean enabling people to see the health status of their whole fleet members not limited by WL size? I know fantasy MMOs uusually do it that way but I don't know how it would result in EVE.
How about: Squad commanders and members can see each other's HP, and can broadcast only to squad members Squad commanders can broadcast to the full wing, meaning they broadcast "please rep XYZ squad member" Wing Commanders can see HP of all the squads/members in their wing and can broadcast the same way on the wing level Fleet Commanders can see HP of the fleet and broadcast to everyone.
Could also be fun to add a Logi-Boss role, that has rights to see HP's of fleet members and coordinates where reps go.
Cedric
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1935
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Posted - 2015.06.19 20:44:13 -
[76] - Quote
Dr Cedric wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:
FYI - limited broadcasts means larger WLs.
Watchlists are capped at 15, right? I think so, but I'm unsure I'm not a fan of large WLs either way. Limited broadcasts would need to be balanced somehow tho, I'd imagine rather than expanding WLs that having fleet shield/armor/structure appear in the fleet window similar to drones in space/bay would be one way. That way vigilant logi would be able to apply reps without the need for broadcasting. While lazy or slow logistics would basically not be able to accomplish anything at all. You mean enabling people to see the health status of their whole fleet members not limited by WL size? I know fantasy MMOs uusually do it that way but I don't know how it would result in EVE. How about: Squad commanders and members can see each other's HP, and can broadcast only to squad members Squad commanders can broadcast to the full wing, meaning they broadcast "please rep XYZ squad member" Wing Commanders can see HP of all the squads/members in their wing and can broadcast the same way on the wing level Fleet Commanders can see HP of the fleet and broadcast to everyone. Could also be fun to add a Logi-Boss role, that has rights to see HP's of fleet members and coordinates where reps go.
All of this, especially the logi boss role would more than likely cause people to rely on it and then blame logi for failure to rep them.
It does in other games at least. |
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance
279
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Posted - 2015.08.07 02:51:56 -
[77] - Quote
I was glad to hear the crew at the latest Open Comms show discussing stacking penalties for remote repping (at 2:04:50). The concept mentionned here or here or in many other places, I am sure, is getting some deserved attention.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
423
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Posted - 2015.08.07 13:31:11 -
[78] - Quote
Well that would be fine if they also stacking penalize damage application.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2097
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Posted - 2015.08.07 13:45:19 -
[79] - Quote
Saisin wrote:I was glad to hear the crew at the latest Open Comms show discussing stacking penalties for remote repping (at 2:04:50). The concept mentionned here or here or in many other places, I am sure....
How do you rationalize stuff like reps having diminishing returns but not guns?
You also somehow want cap to be off grid while doing their work while getting their targetting information from someone on the other grid. WTF kind of BS is that? Cap not needing to be on grid to affect a fight is a stupid idea.
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
111
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Posted - 2015.08.07 18:43:08 -
[80] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Saisin wrote:I was glad to hear the crew at the latest Open Comms show discussing stacking penalties for remote repping (at 2:04:50). The concept mentionned here or here or in many other places, I am sure.... How do you rationalize stuff like reps having diminishing returns but not guns?You also somehow want cap to be off grid while doing their work while getting their targetting information from someone on the other grid. WTF kind of BS is that? Cap not needing to be on grid to affect a fight is a stupid idea.
As far as in-game lore, it would be very easy to make some kind of comment that energy flux fields in the shield generation matrix of ships can only transfers so much energy from an outside source through the shield-capacitor transfer conduit... or something :)
Also, if the lore says it is so, then who are we to complain about that mechanic? The lore says we transfer our consciousness via some sub-space frequency something-or-other to a fully grown clone potentially 100 light years away and we wake up immediately. Lore says we have a perpetual motion machine creating a constant flow of energy (capacitor) that is never ending, but maybe just sometimes slow.
The whole game is currently based off of mechanics that originated in the lore a few game devs had 20 years ago. In 3 months time, if something like this was implemented, it would be assimilated, accepted and meta'd and become the status quo.
Cedric
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
425
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Posted - 2015.08.08 07:42:08 -
[81] - Quote
Dr Cedric wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Saisin wrote:I was glad to hear the crew at the latest Open Comms show discussing stacking penalties for remote repping (at 2:04:50). The concept mentionned here or here or in many other places, I am sure.... How do you rationalize stuff like reps having diminishing returns but not guns?You also somehow want cap to be off grid while doing their work while getting their targetting information from someone on the other grid. WTF kind of BS is that? Cap not needing to be on grid to affect a fight is a stupid idea. As far as in-game lore, it would be very easy to make some kind of comment that energy flux fields in the shield generation matrix of ships can only transfers so much energy from an outside source through the shield-capacitor transfer conduit... or something :) Also, if the lore says it is so, then who are we to complain about that mechanic? The lore says we transfer our consciousness via some sub-space frequency something-or-other to a fully grown clone potentially 100 light years away and we wake up immediately. Lore says we have a perpetual motion machine creating a constant flow of energy (capacitor) that is never ending, but maybe just sometimes slow. The whole game is currently based off of mechanics that originated in the lore a few game devs had 20 years ago. In 3 months time, if something like this was implemented, it would be assimilated, accepted and meta'd and become the status quo. Way to miss the point. The point is why be arbitrary in game play with stacking penalties for reps and not damage.
Hell you don't like blobs maybe you should go play scrabble or chess. Because there NO mechanism that makes ANY sense to punish a n+1 group. It is stupid.
Hay even better idea why not just have ships blow up if they get more than 10 reps...
We even have a goonswarm (note the name) go on and on about player participation in one thread yet clearly states here in this one that he is incapable of fielding pilots with any ability to think.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
111
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Posted - 2015.08.13 00:46:11 -
[82] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote: Way to miss the point. The point is why be arbitrary in game play with stacking penalties for reps and not damage.
Hell you don't like blobs maybe you should go play scrabble or chess. Because there NO mechanism that makes ANY sense to punish a n+1 group. It is stupid.
Hay even better idea why not just have ships blow up if they get more than 10 reps...
We even have a goonswarm (note the name) go on and on about player participation in one thread yet clearly states here in this one that he is incapable of fielding pilots with any ability to think.
We already play this game under a very arbitrary set of rules.
Personally, I think Concord is a joke. How do you rationalize completely omnipotent gank squad police that can destroy anything in seconds, but then they can only be in one place at a time, even when they show up in less than 10 seconds?
How do you rationalize that I can extract something from a planet, have its supply diminish, then magically return to its starting levels if I go on vacation for a week.
How do you rationalize half-moon asteroid "belts" that also magically replenish every 24 hours?
How do you rationalize that capacitor transfers can create energy out of nowhere?
How do you rationalize that Kilometer long spaceships can be "created" in less than 8 hours from 7 simple materials?
How do you rationalize that running your spaceship at full speed, sometimes in excess of 1000 m/s, directly into ANYthing and the worst that happens is a bounce...?
I could go on. The point is that we, the players, have decided to accept the way a game works based on a set of arbitrary rules. One more won't break the game, and could possibly make it a bit better.
Cedric
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