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Kirra Tarren
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.06.17 17:33:39 -
[1] - Quote
Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1917
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 17:48:42 -
[2] - Quote
Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed?
They are behaving exactly like players would by getting on an easy killmail, namely, you in a not so greatly tanked PvP fit.
Any other question? |
Kirra Tarren
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.06.17 17:54:03 -
[3] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
They are behaving exactly like players would by getting on an easy killmail, namely, you in a not so greatly tanked PvP fit.
Any other question?
Yes, but they are not players. They do not have clones. They don't give a **** about killmails or stuff like that, their captains are (not, but should be) focused on survival of their ship, their crew and themselves.
Inb4 the argument of "hurr durr all capsuleers bad pirates should shoot squishiest first" No. What you know for sure is that the Raven/Ishtar/Whatever is going to kill you. Be it now or in 20 minutes when the attacker has left. You know that you have no chance of killing him yourself, your only hope is the attacking capsuleer. If he decides to shoot you after the ratter has died, then that's bad luck for you. But there is a (big) chance that he will not, and if you don't take that chance the chance of the ratter coming back to finish you, your crew and your fleet off is far bigger. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2526
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 18:00:41 -
[4] - Quote
Be aware of your environment. Killing ratters? Tank proper damage.
Btw rats don't care if you're shooting the same target. They're pirates. |
Kirra Tarren
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.06.17 18:03:54 -
[5] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Be aware of your environment. Killing ratters? Tank proper damage.
Btw rats don't care if you're shooting the same target. They're pirates.
Have... Have you even read what I posted?
Anyone else want to meaninglessly throw his opinions into this without anything to base it on? |
Iain Cariaba
1531
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 18:07:37 -
[6] - Quote
Situation (from pirate's point of view): Your buddies are getting slaughtered by this capsuleer when some random guy you don't know warps in and starts to OMGWTF!!! He's got a point!!! Quick, kill that point before he points one of us!!!!
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Will troll for a t-shirt.
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Kirra Tarren
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.06.17 18:22:41 -
[7] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Situation (from pirate's point of view): Your buddies are getting slaughtered by this capsuleer when some random guy you don't know warps in and starts to OMGWTF!!! He's got a point!!! Quick, kill that point before he points one of us!!!!
And thank you for your helpful contribution to this thread.
"STU MINER > i do think about this too STU MINER > OH GOD HES MURDERING US KILL HIM STU MINER > oh wait some other shmuck with a point STU MINER > DIIIIIE STU MINER > Sir hes helping us STU MINER > DOESNT MATTER DANK FRAGS"
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1918
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 18:27:10 -
[8] - Quote
Kirra Tarren wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
They are behaving exactly like players would by getting on an easy killmail, namely, you in a not so greatly tanked PvP fit.
Any other question?
Yes, but they are not players. They do not have clones. They don't give a **** about killmails or stuff like that, their captains are (not, but should be) focused on survival of their ship, their crew and themselves. Inb4 the 'argument' of "hurr durr all capsuleers bad pirates should shoot squishiest first" No. What you know for sure is that the Raven/Ishtar/Whatever is going to kill you. Be it now or in 20 minutes when the attacker has left. You know that you have no chance of killing him yourself, your only hope is the attacking capsuleer. If he decides to shoot you after the ratter has died, then that's bad luck for you. But there is a (big) chance that he will not, and if you don't take that chance the chance of the ratter coming back to finish you, your crew and your fleet off is far bigger. Any other questions?
So beside building your won narrative about how they don't care about kills, do you have anything else of value to add before I report your thread as redundant since it comes up every week and gets shot down every single time? |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
1007
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 19:22:19 -
[9] - Quote
For every pod pilot arriving on grid, the rats should call in solid reinforcements and shoot every capsuleer on grid.
Remove insurance.
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Civ Kado
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 19:24:26 -
[10] - Quote
they should make it so that they DD both the ratter and the attacker in one fell swoop. |
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
767
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 19:26:40 -
[11] - Quote
Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed?
tl;dr: CCP, having to tank rats while I kill a hapless PVE ship is too much effort. Please accept my LOLRP reason about why this shouldn't happen and make it so I can gank in peace again.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2535
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 19:31:04 -
[12] - Quote
Drone aggression swaps in pvp situations.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1470
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 19:52:55 -
[13] - Quote
The NPC's don't care. They are not your friend, you are not their friend for shooting the same target as them.
You are an easier to kill threat that is doing lots of damage I'm sure you can work out the NPC aggression mechanics from that. If you can't .. I suggest you do some more research, and educate yourself.
In short, it's not getting fixed because it's not broken. |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
470
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 20:14:37 -
[14] - Quote
How about you dont try and fight in places you cant win? I dont decloak my covops in a c5 combat site either i mean "dont be an idiot" seems a good statement:)
Also its a well documented part of the "seeker" ai that they hate ewar... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1218
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 20:44:11 -
[15] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Be aware of your environment. Killing ratters? Tank proper damage.
Btw rats don't care if you're shooting the same target. They're pirates.
They are also clearly stupid considering how they throw themselves under our guns
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1007
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 20:49:56 -
[16] - Quote
Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed?
this sick mechanic is the reason why you cant solo hunt ratters anymore. Ridiculously out of balance, but CCP chooses to ignore for some dumb reason :( |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2526
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:04:27 -
[17] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Rowells wrote:Be aware of your environment. Killing ratters? Tank proper damage.
Btw rats don't care if you're shooting the same target. They're pirates. They are also clearly stupid considering how they throw themselves under our guns It's either bravery or stupidity. Can't really tell. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1923
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:05:10 -
[18] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed? this sick mechanic is the reason why you cant solo hunt ratters anymore. Ridiculously out of balance, but CCP chooses to ignore for some reason, I guess they're trying to populate 0.0 with ratters this way. This killed a whole huge, one of few solo pvp professions you could spend time on in 0.0 but whatever... For same reason you'll earn nothing but million of stupid responses why this broken mechanic is right - people love safe ratting and NPC protecting them from other players...
You used to have free kills back when rat just could not swap target. CCP somehow found this to be stupid. Every action was made susceptible to draw aggro because people would just "game" the system anyway.
I guess you would like to return to the time of free kills... |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
809
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:05:40 -
[19] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed? this sick mechanic is the reason why you cant solo hunt ratters anymore. Ridiculously out of balance, but CCP chooses to ignore for some reason :( This killed a whole huge, one of few solo pvp professions you could spend time on in 0.0 but whatever... For same reason you'll earn nothing but million of stupid responses why this broken mechanic is right - people love safe ratting and NPC protecting them from other players...
Soo, it's fair that the ratter doesn't stand a chance against the combined dps of rats and players, but it's not fair that the ganker can't withstand the combined DPS of rats and/or gankers????
Look at this a couple different ways.
1) They're pirates... (we'll assume we're on the open seas as pirates)... We're attacking a british naval vessel that's potentially loaded down with gold... Suddenly, another pirate ship comes in, but he's shooting shooting the naval vessel and doing a ton of damage. Do you a) let him help and then fight the insane damage of their vessel after you've taken down the naval vessel together? b) blast him out of the ocean, as he posses a significant threat and is trying to steal your loot? or c) Pretend he's an ally and fight the naval vessel together with the intent of hopefully dividing out the loot? (hint, pirates don't share or care)
2) Think of them as crazed berserkers. They care nothing about their life, your life, his life, or anything about strategy. Their sole intent is to dive in and kill whatever they can. This includes you, especially if you pose a significant threat to their goal (IE points) and/or are a softer target than the other guy/s. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2526
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:07:32 -
[20] - Quote
Kirra Tarren wrote:Rowells wrote:Be aware of your environment. Killing ratters? Tank proper damage.
Btw rats don't care if you're shooting the same target. They're pirates. Have... Have you even read what I posted? Anyone else want to meaninglessly throw his opinions into this without anything to base it on? Would you also complain if you died because you warped into a damage cloud that someone was care bearing in?
NPCs are a part of the environment, separate from players. Which is why you shouldn't just ignore them and whine when you weren't ready for them. |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1924
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:11:25 -
[21] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote:Rowells wrote:Be aware of your environment. Killing ratters? Tank proper damage.
Btw rats don't care if you're shooting the same target. They're pirates. Have... Have you even read what I posted? Anyone else want to meaninglessly throw his opinions into this without anything to base it on? Would you also complain if you died because you warped into a damage cloud that someone was care bearing in? NPCs are a part of the environment, separate from players. Which is why you shouldn't just ignore them and whine when you weren't ready for them.
So not training the skill for mercoxit is a defense mechanism?
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1415
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:16:01 -
[22] - Quote
Kirra Tarren wrote: That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
You say they are dumb.
I say switching targets to the soft one they CAN kill is an absolutely perfect replication of player behaviour. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2526
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:19:08 -
[23] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Rowells wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote:Rowells wrote:Be aware of your environment. Killing ratters? Tank proper damage.
Btw rats don't care if you're shooting the same target. They're pirates. Have... Have you even read what I posted? Anyone else want to meaninglessly throw his opinions into this without anything to base it on? Would you also complain if you died because you warped into a damage cloud that someone was care bearing in? NPCs are a part of the environment, separate from players. Which is why you shouldn't just ignore them and whine when you weren't ready for them. So not training the skill for mercoxit is a defense mechanism? Never thought of it that way...
Neat.
Of course that would be great if the cloud was actually threatening. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1007
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:41:40 -
[24] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You used to have free kills back when rat just could not swap target. CCP somehow found this to be stupid. Every action was made susceptible to draw aggro because people would just "game" the system anyway.
I guess you would like to return to the time of free kills...
it was only free kills when the ratter min/maxed purely for ratting and ignored all the various intel tools at his disposal and home advantage he already has. Otherwise it was everything but free kill. This was fine.
But now, like I stated above, NPC aggro change removed a whole profession of solo roaming through ratting grounds from the game, its basically not possible anymore (or rendered very very risky/hard/expensive), gone forever - 1 big thing less for people to do and stay logged in doing stuff. Might be one of the reasons why online numbers crashed so hard. CCP killed a huge part of 0.0 pvp, ratter hunting was a big thing for many many people, whether you like it or not. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1007
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:45:37 -
[25] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote: That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
You say they are dumb. I say switching targets to the soft one they CAN kill is an absolutely perfect replication of player behaviour.
there are tons of lolrp reasons on both parts, pro and contra. You should talk about gameplay. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
809
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 21:58:33 -
[26] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
You used to have free kills back when rat just could not swap target. CCP somehow found this to be stupid. Every action was made susceptible to draw aggro because people would just "game" the system anyway.
I guess you would like to return to the time of free kills...
it was only free kills when the ratter min/maxed purely for ratting and ignored all the various intel tools at his disposal and home advantage he already has. Otherwise it was everything but free kill. This was fine. But now, like I stated above, NPC aggro change removed a whole profession of solo roaming through ratting grounds from the game, its basically not possible anymore (or rendered very very risky/hard/expensive), gone forever - 1 big thing less for people to do and stay logged in doing stuff. Might be one of the reasons why online numbers crashed so hard. CCP killed a huge part of 0.0 pvp, ratter hunting was a big thing for many many people, whether you like it or not.
That's not entirely a true comment.
Depending on plex that you're running, the potential to fit for counter gank is very limited, if not non-existent.
So, your suggestion is a comment on "Let me kill you or let the rats kill you; either way, I want you to die with no consequence to me."
Edit... Oh, and if you take a tanky ship, you'll survive the rats long enough to pull off the gank. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1007
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 22:07:56 -
[27] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: That's not entirely a true comment.
Depending on plex that you're running, the potential to fit for counter gank is very limited, if not non-existent.
So, your suggestion is a comment on "Let me kill you or let the rats kill you; either way, I want you to die with no consequence to me."
Edit... Oh, and if you take a tanky ship, you'll survive the rats long enough to pull off the gank.
Edit 2... If the rats are aggroing on you due to scram/disrupt, try fitting a warp bubble and see what that does... You might be able to bubble them and the rats not swap targets.
you seem not to understand what I'm writing, english might be not your strength, right? you always could escape, in a plex even you have a plenty time to do that, there are entry gates etc. slowing down the foe while he's brightly glowing in instant local chat. Ratter usually had every advantage on his side - yes, it was much better than it is now, when you dont even need to try to take on him solo, since rats will eat you alive.
Tanky ship, bubble, yeah right. You still havent noticed I was about explaining solo ratter hunting, right? Yes, you now need a tanky ship which still would need enough DPS to break him before you pop, an easy to catch ship, probably expensive faction fit etc - something one would not want to take into lions hole of ratter backwater regions - this is why I say its a dead profession now. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1925
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 22:12:52 -
[28] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: That's not entirely a true comment.
Depending on plex that you're running, the potential to fit for counter gank is very limited, if not non-existent.
So, your suggestion is a comment on "Let me kill you or let the rats kill you; either way, I want you to die with no consequence to me."
Edit... Oh, and if you take a tanky ship, you'll survive the rats long enough to pull off the gank.
Edit 2... If the rats are aggroing on you due to scram/disrupt, try fitting a warp bubble and see what that does... You might be able to bubble them and the rats not swap targets.
you seem not to understand what I'm writing, english might be not your strength, right? you always could escape, in a plex even you have a plenty time to do that, there are entry gates etc. slowing down the foe while he's brightly glowing in instant local chat. Ratter usually had every advantage on his side - yes, it was much better than it is now, when you dont even need to try to take on him solo, since rats will eat you alive.
You would think that when CCP made the change to rat interacting on the application of e-war, they could of made it so scram/points didn't trigger a swap if they wanted it to stay that way no?
Tank for the rat damage. It's not like you have no idea what the damage profile is gonna be. You get bonus point too because your target will also be dealing that type of damage in the vast majority of case.
If you can't adapt to the new* rules, then sorry I can't help you.
*It's been years now... |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
809
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 22:18:14 -
[29] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:
you seem not to understand what I'm writing, english might be not your strength, right? you always could escape, in a plex even you have a plenty time to do that, there are entry gates etc. slowing down the foe while he's brightly glowing in instant local chat. Ratter usually had every advantage on his side - yes, it was much better than it is now, when you dont even need to try to take on him solo, since rats will eat you alive.
I understand english perfectly well. What I'm seeing is that you're incapable of adapting.
You were able to catch the target's before, even when they had all that intel. Now, they've made it a little bit more difficult for you, and you're shedding tears cause you can't glass cannon a blinged out PVE boat anymore.
You must also realize that there is such a thing as warp disruptors in missions... Sometimes, you can't burn down the frigs fast enough to avoid an incoming gank.
I have a suggestion; Call me crazy, but LTP???
Man, people say carebear tears are good, but ganker tears are so much more salty... |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1007
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 22:21:51 -
[30] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: You would think that when CCP made the change to rat interacting on the application of e-war, they could of made it so scram/points didn't trigger a swap if they wanted it to stay that way no?
Tank for the rat damage. It's not like you have no idea what the damage profile is gonna be. You get bonus point too because your target will also be dealing that type of damage in the vast majority of case.
If you can't adapt to the new* rules, then sorry I can't help you.
*It's been years now...
"sorry you dont want to adapt and bring your faction fit machariel to deklein for killing my ratting raven, your fault".
you dont need to explain this to me, its exactly what I explained in this thread multiple times aready why this is not a viable thing anymore.
As member of a coalition sitting deep in 0.0 I understand very clearly why you are enjoying status quo and defend those aggro mechanics, it was not the point. |
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