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Honorius Vitellius
Defensores Fidei
12
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Posted - 2015.06.19 08:24:55 -
[1] - Quote
Data transmission as part of an on-going theological conversation regarding Amarr society and slavery:
Is slavery necessary for salvation? This is a question that many will rush to answer and in so doing they will lead those with weak minds into error. First one must distinguish what is meant here by slavery along with the scope of the question. Does it mean a specific institution practiced by a specific culture, or does it mean an intense state of submission? Does the question interrogate whether slavery is always necessary for salvation or whether it is only necessary for some? I will answer that the essence of what is meant by slavery is submission and that salvation cannot come about without submission. This submission, however, for those who freely choose it, can come about without the legal experience of humanly instituted slavery.
Indeed, I think that slavery as an intense state of submission can express both the estrangement between humanity and its Maker as well as the way to repair that estrangement. All humans serve something. For some it is their desire for pleasure, glory, or wealth. This kind of service is really to the self, and an individual led on by it is only loyal to political states and institutions out of self-interest or self-love. Such a person wishes to serve their state so that they can be glorified by it. Such a person wishes to work so they can become rich. Such a person wishes to struggle so they can dominate and take pleasure in othersGÇÖ submission to them. Such a person wishes to do good so that they can believe themselves and be seen by others to be good. This is an inverted servitude, a twisted form of submission in which the individual becomes a slave to him or herself. Such a slave devotes himself to fulfilling the desires that he himself generates in a vicious, self-consuming circle.
The faithful seek to escape the vicious circle, and rather than servitude to themselves they submit to and then serve God. In this intense state of submission to something outside of the self the human is truly free, and (perhaps paradoxically in the eyes of the faithless) only when service is done for God is service done in the interest of other people really sincere.
Now here the faithless are accustomed to object that the faithful do what they do out of hope for reward themselves. This is the continuation of inverted thinking. It is to surpass this simple kind of hope that the faithful make themselves slaves to the divine will to do with them what it wills when it wills. The Lord owes us nothing, and we owe Him our service. Only when service without hope of reward is returned to human nature is true freedom achieved. This freedom from the petty servitude to the self is salvation, and this freedom can only be found in submission.
There are then two types of servitude led on by two submissions: submission to the self and submission to God. Submission to the self is a form of entrapping slavery. Submission to God is the slavery the makes one free.
Humankind, in need of reclaiming to God, resists the route to freedom, and it is for this reason that the Amarr resort to war and institute the social and legal practice of slavery to break down the barriers that prevent the cultivation of the spirit. The goal of Amarr servitude is the goal of salvation: to free the slaves of the self from themselves by teaching obedience to another outside the self. The idea is that the human master will fall away and be replaced by the Lord, who is the master of masters, and is Himself served by all masters. In response to this declaration, the unfaithful often say that they do not wish to be freed, and in this self-assured declaration they illustrate the necessity of the Amarr institution of slavery for many of the lost. One cannot choose to be free for such a state does not exist. One is either a slave to the self or a servant to God. The faithful have a moral obligation to return all human beings to God, to break them out of their self-made prisons. To falter from this obligation is immoral; it is to refuse help to a drowning man.
The faithful can pursue this obligation by routes outside violence, and people can be reclaimed to God by the initiation of their own wills. Those who wish to be free of themselves should then swear eternal service to the Lord. Those who do this will be well on their way to salvation, without the legal experience of humanly instituted slavery, but with a deeper abiding servitude to the Lord already realised.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1656
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Posted - 2015.06.19 09:02:08 -
[2] - Quote
This is one of the best descriptions of the subject that I have seen. God has blessed you with a gift for clarity.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1224
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Posted - 2015.06.19 10:45:11 -
[3] - Quote
Wow, the testes is strong in this one... |
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
277
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Posted - 2015.06.19 11:14:49 -
[4] - Quote
We are all slaves to His Will. From the lowly commoner, to the Empress herself.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Lord Kailethre
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
71
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Posted - 2015.06.19 11:28:26 -
[5] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:We are all slaves to His Will. From the lowly commoner, to the Empress herself.
I think servants is a more applicable term. |
Kontrahage
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
24
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Posted - 2015.06.19 11:31:09 -
[6] - Quote
Thank you, Father Vitellius. This explanation was the answer to my recent doubts concerning my progress of conversion. I felt the need to offer myself for enslavement to his Excellency, Lord Cardinal Dex who in his response offered me guidance and wisdom but no direct answer to this offer. Now I see why. I am allready in submission to HIM with faithful Amarr to guide me so I require no formal enslavement to find the my way.
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ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
740
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Posted - 2015.06.19 11:37:38 -
[7] - Quote
We are at our strongest when we live for ourselves, our kin and those we love. The question is pointless anyway, the proper question is does one even need Amarrian salvation and the answer is invariably no.
If the Amarr want it, good for them, but if you try and force submission on someone they will always have a part of themselves that resists. To me that seems like it would defeat the very purpose. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1224
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Posted - 2015.06.19 11:51:49 -
[8] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:We are at our strongest when we live for ourselves, our kin and those we love. The question is pointless anyway, the proper question is does one even need Amarrian salvation and the answer is invariably no.
If the Amarr want it, good for them, but if you try and force submission on someone they will always have a part of themselves that resists. To me that seems like it would defeat the very purpose.
Couldn't agree more, you either believe in something or you don't. You cannot be forced to believe no matter how you are treated.
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Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
553
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:07:15 -
[9] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:ValentinaDLM wrote:We are at our strongest when we live for ourselves, our kin and those we love. The question is pointless anyway, the proper question is does one even need Amarrian salvation and the answer is invariably no.
If the Amarr want it, good for them, but if you try and force submission on someone they will always have a part of themselves that resists. To me that seems like it would defeat the very purpose. Couldn't agree more, you either believe in something or you don't. You cannot be forced to believe no matter how you are treated.
It's not a forced belief, it something substantially more devious in nature. The word is indoctrination and it involves the exposure to and saturation of a particular belief or lifestyle until it appears normal in the eyes of the subject.
The Amarr are also not the only ones who practice it, they're simply more honest about doing it than most.
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1225
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:49:39 -
[10] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:ValentinaDLM wrote:We are at our strongest when we live for ourselves, our kin and those we love. The question is pointless anyway, the proper question is does one even need Amarrian salvation and the answer is invariably no.
If the Amarr want it, good for them, but if you try and force submission on someone they will always have a part of themselves that resists. To me that seems like it would defeat the very purpose. Couldn't agree more, you either believe in something or you don't. You cannot be forced to believe no matter how you are treated. It's not a forced belief, it something substantially more devious in nature. The word is indoctrination and it involves the exposure to and saturation of a particular belief or lifestyle until it appears normal in the eyes of the subject. The Amarr are also not the only ones who practice it, they're simply more honest about doing it than most.
Putting the blame for actions at the feet of some unproven (or non-existent) deity can hardly be honest. |
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Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
553
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Posted - 2015.06.19 12:55:56 -
[11] - Quote
Though I know this sidetracks the conversation (my apologies to the author), I made no remark about their faith or their deity. Simply that they hold no pretense over the purpose of the practice of slavery in the Empire. That is what this entire thread is about, after all.
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Kontrahage
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
25
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:18:16 -
[12] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote: It's not a forced belief, it something substantially more devious in nature. The word is indoctrination and it involves the exposure to and saturation of a particular belief or lifestyle until it appears normal in the eyes of the subject.
The Amarr are also not the only ones who practice it, they're simply more honest about doing it than most.
True, the Federation does the very same and if a group under it's contol dissents and chooses to secede they respond with fire and death all for the cause of the dissenters' "freedom". Only here the purpose is not to bring those subjugated to their salvation but merely to increase the subjugator's power. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1947
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:33:58 -
[13] - Quote
Yawn, more of the same old crap arguments as to why the Amarr are "right", how everyone else is doing the same thing but for their own selfish reasons, etc, etc.
Nothing new to see here folks. Move along.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
263
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:36:50 -
[14] - Quote
Can't we get along?
.....Please?
.............Pretty please?
...............................No? Ok...... |
Jili Tonari
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
68
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:48:50 -
[15] - Quote
No.
Your entire argument is based on a person believing in your make-believe god.
So like, you and yours can go play master and servant to your hearts' content for all I care.
But you don't. You take other people, against their will and force them to believe this twisted concept of necessary slavery.
How does it go? Non Servium. I will not serve. Not you, not your Empire, not your God. And I will do my level best to make sure no one else gets dragged into your bullsh*t against their will.
No abolition, no peace.
Watch Amarr burn.
GÇ£Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.GÇ¥
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Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
558
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:17:19 -
[16] - Quote
I think that those who sincerely follow the logic thoroughly explained by OP should have a taste of their own medicine. Eye for an eye and whatnot. A few decades in working camps assigned to menial tasks of city infrastructure maintenance, with pervasive cultural indoctrination in the spare time should be enough.
Basically, cleaning sewage pipes, sorting landfills and learning some obscure dead language and rituals (Starkmanir?) for the rest of their lives.
To cultivate the spirit of man. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1657
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:27:27 -
[17] - Quote
Jade Blackwind wrote:I think that those who sincerely follow the logic thoroughly explained by OP should have a taste of their own medicine. Eye for an eye and whatnot. A few decades in working camps assigned to menial tasks of city infrastructure maintenance, with pervasive cultural indoctrination in the spare time should be enough.
Basically, cleaning sewage pipes, sorting landfills and learning some obscure dead language and rituals (Starkmanir?) for the rest of their lives.
To cultivate the spirit of man.
Some of us already have.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
1949
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:39:49 -
[18] - Quote
Kernher you can call us in a few generations time when your descendents are allowed to serve the "True Amarr" as second class citizens and you can join the real PIE, ok?
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
263
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:49:15 -
[19] - Quote
Ladies and gentlemen, from this post onward the thread will fall to ****....
You have been warned, proceed at your own risk.... |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1658
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:56:57 -
[20] - Quote
The difference between us, Rella, is that that's something only you care about.
Foreign cultures place value on greed, on ego. On serving the self, as Mr. Vitellius says. When you see others higher than yourself, you crave what they have.
Amarr is a culture of submission. All things serve one higher. There is happiness and pride in being a cog in the machine, when you learn to find value in serving an essential purpose for something far greater than any one person.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Honorius Vitellius
Defensores Fidei
17
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Posted - 2015.06.19 14:58:18 -
[21] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote: If the Amarr want it, good for them, but if you try and force submission on someone they will always have a part of themselves that resists. To me that seems like it would defeat the very purpose.
The disease that infects the corrupted will of humanity leads to the resistance that you describe as inevitable. This resistance is the cause of the Amarr institution of slavery. Those who feel as you describe will likely not achieve salvation, but their children might, if they are guided correctly through the process of the Reclaiming. This situation does not defeat the very purpose but rather constitutes the very purpose. The faithful pray that the lost will see the light, while obediently taking up the task of defeating the enemies of the outside and controlling the enemies found inside. This is our sacred burden.
Anabella Rella wrote: Nothing new to see here folks. Move along.
I agree completely. God has always been present for the entirety of the estrangement of His creation from him. There is nothing new in the orbit of any sun. My words are part of the same harmony that has fallen upon the ears of the faithless for millennia. With each repetition, a few are saved. God has an eternity to effect His work, while the time of error is finite. |
Isiana
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:00:27 -
[22] - Quote
A proper 'discussion' would require all involved parties to have a say in the matter. |
Anslo
Scope Works
31820
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:06:46 -
[23] - Quote
Same **** different day. One side escalates, the other does the same, extremist set in on both sides. News flash, both sides are immature pups until you shut the hell up and actually try having a civil discussion without one side making a reference to primitives or the other side making a reference to a God loving ass hat.
Seriously, why do you people do this?
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1662
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:14:05 -
[24] - Quote
The original post was quite civil. If you feel that speaking our beliefs is not, then you are never going to be satisfied, Tetua.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Rhiannon Dellacorte
Liberty Vanguard
171
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:16:19 -
[25] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:The original post was quite civil. If you feel that speaking our beliefs is not, then you are never going to be satisfied, Tetua.
How often are you satisfied, Kernher?
Rules of Acquisition #261
A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience.
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Anslo
Scope Works
31820
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:20:54 -
[26] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:The original post was quite civil. If you feel that speaking our beliefs is not, then you are never going to be satisfied, Tetua. And what makes you think I'm speaking about the OP in any way? Did I say it was the OP? No. Did I say it was the escalation that followed? Yes.
It always happens. Both parties are guilty. Some well meaning guy or gal tries to start up a conversation about this to make progress, and extremists and bait posters on both sides **** it all up. Instead of people on both sides trying to de-escalate, they add fuel to the fire.
Then next week the same damn question of why can't there be peace between our people pop up and we start the cycle all over again with people flooding in to try and be the most 'patriotic' or whatever.
I have no problem with the OP. It's the idiots that come after I have problem with.
Try to not put words in my mouth, thanks in advance.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
279
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:33:46 -
[27] - Quote
Rhiannon Dellacorte wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:The original post was quite civil. If you feel that speaking our beliefs is not, then you are never going to be satisfied, Tetua. How often are you satisfied, Kernher?
That was a rather crude jab at someone simply trying to defend our faith, Dellacorte. Dissapointing considering my positive view of you. Considering also my superior's reply to Mr Tetua was civily worded, and he has kindly offered clarification, my opinion of you just dropped a notch.
Now, I agree with Mr Tetua's view, rather sadly. The IGS just seems too immature a place to have these discussions. I still affirm my belief and support of the original poster's view point, and will happily have civil discorse on it with a dissenter. In private.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
53
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rhiannon Dellacorte wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:The original post was quite civil. If you feel that speaking our beliefs is not, then you are never going to be satisfied, Tetua. How often are you satisfied, Kernher?
More than you, I am sure.
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Rhiannon Dellacorte
Liberty Vanguard
174
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:51:56 -
[29] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Rhiannon Dellacorte wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:The original post was quite civil. If you feel that speaking our beliefs is not, then you are never going to be satisfied, Tetua. How often are you satisfied, Kernher? More than you, I am sure.
Oh, sweetie. You're too young to know anything for sure.
Rules of Acquisition #261
A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1665
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Posted - 2015.06.19 15:53:45 -
[30] - Quote
Stop, please.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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