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Flax Volcanus
Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:30:00 -
[1]
Search didn't turn up anything, so I thought I'd ask about the buzz I've been hearing: Dees anyone know what changes are being planned for the Null and Void hybrid ammo types? Best T2 ammo in the game -- I hope they don't mess it up too badly. |
Lunanie
Final-Vendetta
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:33:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lunanie on 24/11/2006 16:35:59 Ofc they nerfed it (like all t2 ammo and ships)...... CCP..... stop griefing older players plz
Null gets a tracking penalty and Void a damage penalty. I don't know the exact details but it's ghay
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Kiyano
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:54:00 -
[3]
Null has -25% tracking (no difference to Mega really it has the tracking bonus). Void has a range penalty changed to -75% i think, not sure about the dmg change though.
Don't quote me on that though, just what i read in another post a few mins ago.
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Flax Volcanus
Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:59:00 -
[4]
I figured somethign was coming -- it's the only T2 ammo that wasn't screwed up.
IMO, if you want things like a speed penalty applied to using T2 ammo, for God's sake, don't make them stack. Using 5 launchers full of T2 heavies, for example, puts a Caracal at a standstill. Even 3 T1 and 2 T2 still put the hurt on anything bigger than a frig. And watch out with AFs or Inties and T2 lights. Ditto with some of the gun ammo types, and with penalties other than speed.
Null and Void were the only T2 types I used. Guess I'll just go back to T1 ammo in T2 weps. |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.24 17:02:00 -
[5]
I made this before when it was being discussed, and I think its still accurate now that I added the late change to barrage as well:
The changes for large tech 2 blaster/autocannon ammo (changes in italic):
Barrage RMR: 24 exp, 20 kin, +50% falloff range Kali: 24 exp, 20 kin, +50% falloff range, -25% tracking
Hail RMR: 48 exp, 12 kin, -5% cap recharge rate per gun, -50% optimal range, -50% tracking speed, -10% velocity per gun Kali: 44 exp, 8 kin, -5% cap recharge rate per gun, -50% falloff range, -50% tracking speed, -50% optimal range
Null RMR: 20 kin, 24 thermal, +25% optimal range, +25% falloff range Kali: 20 kin, 24 thermal, +25% optimal range, +25% falloff range, -50% tracking
Void RMR: 28 kin, 32 thermal, -65% optimal range, -50% tracking speed, +25% more cap use Kali: 28 kin, 28 thermal, -50% optimal range, -75% tracking speed, +25% more cap use, -50% falloff range
So:
* Barrage gets -25% tracking. * Void loses 4 damage, but gets slightly more optimal range at the cost of less tracking and less falloff range. * Hail loses 8 damage (60 to 52), gets rid of the speed penalty but gets -50% optimal range instead. * Null gets -50% tracking.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
ChronoLynx
Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.11.24 23:15:00 -
[6]
Void M = Unusable on Cruiser/BC/HAC/CMD... Time so swichback to Antimatter Charge M
Elitest Carebear with Fangs and Claws |
Varkel
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Posted - 2006.11.25 19:35:00 -
[7]
This really sucks. I spend the time as a caldari to train to use a ishkur and they mess with my favorite ammo and add hps to my targets and don't do anything with drones.Why is training skills in this game like russian roulette?
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Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 19:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Varkel ... Why is training skills in this game like russian roulette?
LOL, that made my day
Well Tuxford decided blasterboats and blasters themselves were not gimped enough in KALI so blaster ammo also needed a nerf...
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Syris Anu
Evolutionary Pressure
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Posted - 2006.11.25 19:55:00 -
[9]
To add my two cents, I think the nerf T2 ammo, and specifically the nerf Null and Void lobby has forgotten that:
1. To use tech II blasters takes about 6 months of dedicated training on guns alone, which is a massive investment of skillpoints. To put this in perspective, the average age of an Eve character is 7 months. 2. Tech II cannons cost anywhere from 3-4x that of tech I cannons. Tech II rails costs anywhere from 15-30x that of tech I rails. 3. Tech II large ammo costs anywhere from 35-50x that of tech I large ammo. Maybe more in the case of Spike. 4. Tech II weaponry has significantly higher fitting requirements.
When you specialize and spend this much, you should have hard hitting weaponry. Anyone in a tech I fitted battleship against a tech II fitted battleship should be at a disadvantage. Otherwise, what is the point of the pilot skilling and economic systems?
Furthermore, regarding the Mega specifically since that is what uses Null and Void the most, just because it has tracking bonuses doesn't mean that ammo it uses should incur a tracking penalty. That effectively cancels the bonus, making it a one-bonus battleship compared to all the other battleships that get two bonuses.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.25 20:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Syris Anu To add my two cents, I think the nerf T2 ammo, and specifically the nerf Null and Void lobby has forgotten that:
1. To use tech II blasters takes about 6 months of dedicated training on guns alone, which is a massive investment of skillpoints. To put this in perspective, the average age of an Eve character is 7 months. 2. Tech II cannons cost anywhere from 3-4x that of tech I cannons. Tech II rails costs anywhere from 15-30x that of tech I rails. 3. Tech II large ammo costs anywhere from 35-50x that of tech I large ammo. Maybe more in the case of Spike. 4. Tech II weaponry has significantly higher fitting requirements.
When you specialize and spend this much, you should have hard hitting weaponry. Anyone in a tech I fitted battleship against a tech II fitted battleship should be at a disadvantage. Otherwise, what is the point of the pilot skilling and economic systems?
Furthermore, regarding the Mega specifically since that is what uses Null and Void the most, just because it has tracking bonuses doesn't mean that ammo it uses should incur a tracking penalty. That effectively cancels the bonus, making it a one-bonus battleship compared to all the other battleships that get two bonuses.
You can't use price as a reason for things to be better. Thats just supply/demand, CCP don't set the prices, players do. An item is simply worth what people are willing to pay for it.
And, you are wrong: T1 Named items cost a lot more than T2. For example, Modal Neutrons cost about 8m each. Neutron II's cost about 2m each.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.25 20:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ChronoLynx Void M = Unusable on Cruiser/BC/HAC/CMD... Time so swichback to Antimatter Charge M
This is the main issue I have with these changes.
The blaster changes seem purely designed to take Battleship combat into account. Try using a Taranis with Void now... you have a few thousand metres you can operate within, and your transversal murders the tracking.
These changes seem to be very one-dimensional and do not consider T2 ammo use in cruisers and frigates.
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.25 23:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: ChronoLynx Void M = Unusable on Cruiser/BC/HAC/CMD... Time so swichback to Antimatter Charge M
This is the main issue I have with these changes.
The blaster changes seem purely designed to take Battleship combat into account. Try using a Taranis with Void now... you have a few thousand metres you can operate within, and your transversal murders the tracking.
These changes seem to be very one-dimensional and do not consider T2 ammo use in cruisers and frigates.
well i can say - null gets only a 25% tracking penalty .. not 50% like in the beginning.
and after several fights on SiSi in my blasterranis i can say - it's still PWN.
void? i only used it against bigger targets especially when i needed the extra damage output (hi t1 fitted anti-frig caracal!) so i don't see *that* much changing. ___________________
-Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
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Hornious1
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Posted - 2006.11.27 07:53:00 -
[13]
Well I tried the test server tonight for the first time and my favorite ship is my blastaranis. I did my typical ratting and I could not hit worth a crap. I am using T2 Neutrons with Null and the tracking hit has killed me. I have motion prediction on level 5 but Interceptor only on level2. What am I doing wrong here. What is your setup if I don't mind asking.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 07:55:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 27/11/2006 07:56:22
Originally by: Lunanie Edited by: Lunanie on 24/11/2006 16:35:59 Ofc they nerfed it (like all t2 ammo and ships)...... CCP..... stop griefing older players plz
Trouble is that it isn't just older players anymore. I'm fairly new myself (compared to many "older players" - I'm pushing 12 months now), and I JUST got here - I got medium tech 2s a while ago, but am about to arrive at large tech 2 hybrids... only to have crap dumped in my lap.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:39:00 -
[15]
To quote myself from another thread:
Originally by: Patch86 The thing is, T2, in no other cases does it completely outmatch T1 and named wikthout competition- thats only ammo.
Examples: HACs are all very well and powerful- their base price is 20 million (and ususally sell for many many times more, as we all know). The T1 combat ship that costs about 20 million is the BC. In a fight between a HAC and a BC, who wins? Well, its pretty even, and can go either way.
T2 cargo expanders have just had their bonus changed- they now have the same bonus as Local Hull expanders, so they are the same as best named.
Armour plates- 1600mm Steel Plates II give exactly the same bonus (although with harsher fitting costs) as 1600mm Rolled Tungsten, the best named.
BUT, guns- One ship has 250mm Railgun II, the other has 250mm Prototype Gauss Gun. Which ones gonna win? Have a guess. Will it even be close? Will it heck.
Its all very well and nice saying "I invested skill time into T2! It should be better than named!", but thats just not the way the EVE universe is. T2 should not, and was neever meant to be, an I Win button. And in most cases, its not.
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Mongooze
Halfwits Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:53:00 -
[16]
I like the changes. It means there's no reason for me to spend the time anymore training for t2 ammo.
-- Don't be a nitwit, be a Halfwit! |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Patch86 To quote myself from another thread:
Originally by: Patch86 The thing is, T2, in no other cases does it completely outmatch T1 and named wikthout competition- thats only ammo.
Examples: HACs are all very well and powerful- their base price is 20 million (and ususally sell for many many times more, as we all know). The T1 combat ship that costs about 20 million is the BC. In a fight between a HAC and a BC, who wins? Well, its pretty even, and can go either way.
T2 cargo expanders have just had their bonus changed- they now have the same bonus as Local Hull expanders, so they are the same as best named.
Armour plates- 1600mm Steel Plates II give exactly the same bonus (although with harsher fitting costs) as 1600mm Rolled Tungsten, the best named.
BUT, guns- One ship has 250mm Railgun II, the other has 250mm Prototype Gauss Gun. Which ones gonna win? Have a guess. Will it even be close? Will it heck.
Its all very well and nice saying "I invested skill time into T2! It should be better than named!", but thats just not the way the EVE universe is. T2 should not, and was neever meant to be, an I Win button. And in most cases, its not.
T2 ammo has plenty of drawbacks: tracking penalties (huge in some cases like Spike), speed nerfs, cap nerfs etc.
There are plenty of reasons to not use T2 ammo in various situations. You don't see me using Void much as I orbit cruisers in my Enyo due to tracking issues. They didn't need to nerf the damage on Void and the range on Spike. Their penalties were hard enough as it was.
Because I said so...
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