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Yosef Stallion Sparkle
Communist Miners of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 00:49:07 -
[1] - Quote
Me and about 4 of my friends (all of us relatively new to the game) stated a corporation hoping to work as a group to make more isk. At the moment we are trying to figure out how we should go about earning it (mining ops or mission running). We have considered saving for an orca and running ops with hulks and covetors but aren't sure if we have enough people to turn a decent profit even with the orca's buffs. So the question is if we had a fleet of 1 hulk, 3 covetors, and 1 orca, would we be making a decent enough profit to justify the purchase of an orca, and if not, what is a good alternative? |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
611
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Posted - 2015.06.22 01:41:03 -
[2] - Quote
In this game you are going to have to learn how to run numbers for yourself. Get EFT and do load out with your character's skills. You can figure in the orca boost exactly as they are given from the character in question as long as that character is owned by someone who trusts you enough to give a an API with character skill info.
Some advice however. Due to the smaller rock sizes in high sec figure around 80% of what your max theoretical yield is because you will not get max yield with all the rock switching. Also know that if you guys are mining in high sec unless you are in some way back, out of the way, nowhere'sville then you will likely not make it very long before you get war deced. High Sec mining corps get war deced a bit. High sec mining corps that advertise will be perma war deced. If 4 mining barges are seen in the same solar system and especially the same belt together you will almost certainly be war deced.
If you want to mine in high sec with minimal PvP then you will need to learn how to keep a low profile. If you don't mind the occasional PvP then you might as well mine in null sec. If you don't want to pay to rent space or get involved in sov warfare then just go to some NRDS space like provi and learn how to get along with the locals.
Either that or run missions in high sec. |
Yosef Stallion Sparkle
Communist Miners of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 01:51:23 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks a lot for the info, I didn't know pvp was a problem for miners in high sec. Glad you told me about EFT or else I might not have found it. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
611
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Posted - 2015.06.22 01:55:16 -
[4] - Quote
Some other thoughts that many people running missions together could be fun especially once you start getting burner missions. Those are more challenging and give much better reward.
Another thought is that if you like mining and don't mind some risk then do some scanning and find some wormholes with gas sites. You can mine the gas with O.R.E. mining frigates. The venture is cheap enough and if there are 5 of you guys you could split up and some run combat sites in PvP fit ships while the scanner runs the hacking sites and one or two of you run the gas site(s).
Voice coms would help in that situation but not be necessary. The main point is that the PvP fit ships need to be ready to bail out the other two if something happens. Worth noting is that operating in wormholes will take some learning and getting used to. There are plenty of guides and videos out there and with each loss you will learn. However I think that you will find that with what you earn in wormholes that you can afford to loose ships here and there and still make isk.
It really boils down to what do you guys like doing and what playstyles you have fun and / or enjoy doing. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
611
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Posted - 2015.06.22 02:09:59 -
[5] - Quote
Yosef Stallion Sparkle wrote:Thanks a lot for the info, I didn't know pvp was a problem for miners in high sec. Glad you told me about EFT or else I might not have found it. there are guides and videos out there that show you how to use EFT. It is a very powerful app and I think that most players that use it don't even know how to make use of all of it's features. I know for sure that there are some features that I don't fully know how to use and every once in a while I seem to learn about something that it can do that I was not aware of. So it's probably worth getting to know EFT.
As far as high sec PvP for miners is concerned you are mainly worried about CODE. you will want to have those guys set to red by corp standing so that you can see them pop into local. They gank miners, which means that they will blow you up even if not at war with you.
The next risk of course is war decs but for those you get a 24 hour warning. But it is helpful for you to know in advance so that you don't' make all these plans for high sec orca boosted mining only to find out that high sec mining is too much of a PITA.
If ore mining is what you want to do and you think that you might be willing to try null sec I could give you some basic advice on that if you want to eve mail me. I'm no longer and expert miner and have not done it in years so I might not be the best candidate but I can give you some pointers as to how to get into null and how to operate there. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2619
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Posted - 2015.06.22 02:20:53 -
[6] - Quote
Yosef Stallion Sparkle wrote:Thanks a lot for the info, I didn't know pvp was a problem for miners in high sec. Glad you told me about EFT or else I might not have found it. PVP is an ever-present thing everywhere in EVE. Even if you don't seek it out or if you actively avoid it occasionally PVP will find you, normally when you don't want it to.
The appropriate thing to do is to be prepared for it. As a miner the continuous threat is suicide ganking, there are a significant number of players who are highly dedicated to suicide ganking miners and it's something that can happen at pretty much any time with very little warning. The appropriate preventative measure is to be at your computer and looking at your client while mining tanking your ship.
Suicide ganking is a low level, general threat that is present at all times. 99 out of 100 times you undock you won't be targetted for a suicide gank, but it is always possible.
The second major threat is wars. Wars are declared by people like me for a variety of reasons, sometimes because someone who dislikes the target paid to us do so but often for more esoteric reasons. The best way to avoid wars is to avoid rapid, uncontrolled increases in corp membership, not ever under any circumstances putting up a corp recruitment advert and not conducting your activities in heavily populated areas. When you do find yourself at war you must be aware that the people who declared war on you will be actively trying to hunt you down and blow you up, you can choose to fight them with PVP ships or avoid them, whichever you prefer.
Wars are a high level, specific threat that only exists when a war has been declared against you. If you undock a mining ship and go mining while at war you will almost certainly be attacked. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2619
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Posted - 2015.06.22 02:25:32 -
[7] - Quote
Also I always recommend miners train to be able to fly some kind of reasonably effective, low SP combat ship like a battlecruiser. I don't think anyone actually likes the idea of being unable to engage in combat if the situation dictates even if they prefer to avoid combat. |
Memphis Baas
480
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Posted - 2015.06.22 02:28:48 -
[8] - Quote
This is a PVP game, so PVP is a "problem" everywhere.
High-sec just has more restrictive engagement rules, but not impossible to work around. You'll note that CONCORD doesn't come to save you, but rather to punish the attackers (after the kill). And there's enough information on the internets to figure out exactly how much DPS is required to kill barges. So when you do get attacked, it will be routine, done many times before, against other miners.
Also, a lot of the high-sec activities can be done solo (and you keep 100% of whatever loot), whereas a group doesn't speed things up that much (and you keep 70%-80%).
Plus, PVE in this game is archaic; PVP is where all the dev efforts have been going and are going. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1216
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Posted - 2015.06.22 02:41:22 -
[9] - Quote
If you are dead set on mining: if you get wardecced fly a bunch of ventures into lowsec and learn to survive there. the wardec corp will more than likely get bored after a week. And you get some rare ore, and interesting game experiences.
if not, it isn't too late to pick a profession where you get paid actual isk instead of mining. Since mining can be semi-afked without too much difficulty and it isn't hard to multibox there are a bunch of lazy people out there driving down prices.
As for the orca, I think the math says if you have 3 or more it starts to make sense. plus the orca can either help haul a lot or act as a decent way to collect the ore and pass it off to a hauler.
@ChainsawPlankto
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
611
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Posted - 2015.06.22 02:51:15 -
[10] - Quote
In high sec your chances of getting ganked are, in most cases, very low. However there are usually a lot more characters in local and you mostly don't know who you can trust and who you need to avoid. Also you rarely have intel about who is near by and who is headed your way. Further while you chances per time that you undock might be low the numbers will catch up with you and eventually you will encounter it.
In null sec you often know who you can trust and who you can't. You typically know when someone that will blow you up is headed your way often from several systems out. When reds do show up PvP is a likelyhood but you usually know when it is coming.
The main down side to null sec is the potential to be cloaky camped or sometimes the area that you are in can be very active with reds during your play time and you'll have to either PvP, or wait it out or go to high sec either jump clone or travel there.
If you like the concept of PvE sometimes and PvP at others then null sec can be a good option. Wormhole space can be more isk but instead of not knowing who you can trust in local like in high sec, you just don't know who is in local due to your name not displaying in local until you talk in local.
Low sec as far as I am concerned there is little to no reason to go to low sec except if you are looking to PvP. Not only that but the only people that I have ever seen give advice otherwise are low sec PvPers. However if you like the concept of PvP or PvE mixed with PvP then low sec can be a great place to live. You might even want to give faction warfare a try if that is the case. |
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Amanda Chan
Error 404 Pod Not Found
20
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Posted - 2015.06.22 06:47:43 -
[11] - Quote
Yosef Stallion Sparkle wrote:Me and about 4 of my friends (all of us relatively new to the game) stated a corporation hoping to work as a group to make more isk.
It's always good playing with friends
At the moment we are trying to figure out how we should go about earning it (mining ops or mission running).
If you choose to mission, since all 5 of you are relatively new, it may be better for your group to first do level 4 missions/epic arcs together to achieve a decent mission run time. As you become more experience and fatter in the wallet. You can afford ships/fits that can do the missions faster and then break off into a seperate missions.
Everybody bookmarks their missions to the corporation and then 1 person comes back in a noctis an hour later and hovers/salvage it all up.
Mining is also viable and is easy to do in a group. Have 1 of the members train into a Miamos and store it in the Orca. Then when the Orca get's full that 1 person breaks off of mining and starts running the ore back to a station/pos. No interruption and you'll find you can clear out most high-sec belts in 1.5 to 2 hours.
We have considered saving for an orca and running ops with hulks and covetors but aren't sure if we have enough people to turn a decent profit even with the orca's buffs. So the question is if we had a fleet of 1 hulk, 3 covetors, and 1 orca, would we be making a decent enough profit to justify the purchase of an orca, and if not, what is a good alternative?
A good Orca is a pretty long train, around 3 months+. It involves getting leadership 5, mining foreman 5, etc. Woe be the person who gets stuck with that train, however since the path to a good Orca in dabbling in Leadership. The person who is training that might as well train the rest of the Warfare skills and fly a command ship. Should you 5 want to get into trouble a command ship would not go amiss in providing a serious increase in group effectiveness while being a decent hull to boot.
Personally, having trained an Orca pilot myself from scratch,I would actually suggest just buying one instead. Orca/Freighter pilots are fairly common , since the training has some overlap, and can be a very useful utility toon.
I would suggest to not focus on the most isk p/hour vs as Brave likes to say it "fun p/hour". Run a bunch of missions together or mine, get a nice little bank roll and then go crazy some weekends with whatever you wanna do. Just remember why you're making the isk and don't focus to much on making isk.
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
805
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Posted - 2015.06.22 08:58:10 -
[12] - Quote
This might be New Citizens but prey are prey. As relatively new players I would advice you to be less public about your corporate mining and mission running goals. There are alliances in highsec that specialize in hunting down players doing PVE. Don't expect these alliances to think, "I would have wardecced this group of easy targets but the post was in New Citizens so I'll give them a pass."
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
323
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Posted - 2015.06.22 14:02:55 -
[13] - Quote
Good stuff so far, I have a few things to add.
There are 3 decent fit tools to use. My preference is EvE HQ or PYFA as I find EFT to be lacking in many ways but that is all personal preference. All of them are decent tools and all of them have specific strengths and weaknesses so use the one you like the most.
EvE HQ - http://evehq.co/ PYFA - http://www.pyfa.net/ EFT - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359
Mining in high sec can be profitable if done correctly, but I always found that you can make more by running level 4 missions. Work as teams one or more players kill the missions bookmarking things on the fly and moves on while another comes in behind and salvages / loots the mission pockets after they have been turned in. The use of the MTU can be extremely helpful in these situations. This will likely make more ISK than you can mining and there is not as much chance for suicide ganking as there is with mining.
Boredom for the salvage character is the biggest problem here so you may need to take turns doing it. |
Staten Island
Bagel and Lox
40
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:36:46 -
[14] - Quote
Yosef Stallion Sparkle wrote:Me and about 4 of my friends (all of us relatively new to the game) stated a corporation hoping to work as a group to make more isk. At the moment we are trying to figure out how we should go about earning it (mining ops or mission running). We have considered saving for an orca and running ops with hulks and covetors but aren't sure if we have enough people to turn a decent profit even with the orca's buffs. So the question is if we had a fleet of 1 hulk, 3 covetors, and 1 orca, would we be making a decent enough profit to justify the purchase of an orca, and if not, what is a good alternative?
Dont worry yourself over much about war decs etc... If you stay in an out of the way location, you will avoid the vast majority of ganker/war dec activity. If you do happen to draw a war dec, there are numerous ways to avoid it, some more humorous then others. Of course, you can try and defend yourself, which I recommend since its fun, but the reality is that wars in eve are largely consensual - because if the target wants to avoid the dec they can (and those newbe corps that dont avoid the dec, probably do so out of ignorance as to game mechanics).
As for your suggested fleet composition - I would suggest procurers/skiffs instead of the hulk and covertors. More tanky and more forgiving and less likely to draw a ganker to you. As for the orca, IMO the Orca is the best utility ship in the game. Its like a swiss army knife that can follow you around and you can draw all sorts of things from as circumstances arise. I have several, which I used to use all the time in HS pvp related activities. Never really used one as a mining booster though, heard they are good for that. |
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
673
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Posted - 2015.06.25 10:07:14 -
[15] - Quote
Mining income scales linearly with the number of people involved, roughly, assuming you've got a source of roids capable of supporting them. Three players mining = 3x the isk generation of one player mining.
So that's your starting point, and every person NOT mining (e.g. if you're doing low and have guards) is dropping your isk/player from there. The equation is relatively simple.
Doing missions scales in a much less simplistic fashion. Usually two people instead of one is ALWAYS an increase in isk generation per member, because it will much more than double the speed with which you get through missions, both because of clear time and because you're less likely to 'run out' of missions by hitting two you need to decline.
Past two, though... it really depends. Three may be an improvement again (it usually is, but not always) because the increase in clear speed might not make up for dividing the bounties and loot three ways, four is almost always at least something of a net loss vs 3, 5 is almost without exception a net loss over 4, etc.
All this said, in honesty the whole "what PvE activity gives the best isk for my group size" problem ITSELF is more effort than it's worth. In a small corp, you play with whomever's online in whatever that group size is, because they're your friends (or at least people you don't hate) and generally hanging out >> soloing in a multiplayer game. And if you're looking, you can usually find an excuse to fleet with your mates if you want one, e.g. one of you has access to L4 missions the others don't so grouping with you helps them all grind standings faster. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1138
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Posted - 2015.06.25 11:23:57 -
[16] - Quote
If you're looking into mining and mission running, and you're willing to that from one HQ, you should consider starting a little industry, iE getting some bpos for things you need over and over (like mining crystals eventually). Building things out of *your* ores is fun, doesn't really make any money, but saves you a trip to a trade hub from time to time.
It's also a lot of fun to take your new vessel out of the oven :D |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
5146
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Posted - 2015.06.25 13:08:44 -
[17] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:If you are dead set on mining: if you get wardecced fly a bunch of ventures into lowsec and learn to survive there. the wardec corp will more than likely get bored after a week. And you get some rare ore, and interesting game experiences.
if not, it isn't too late to pick a profession where you get paid actual isk instead of mining. Since mining can be semi-afked without too much difficulty and it isn't hard to multibox there are a bunch of lazy people out there driving down prices.
As for the orca, I think the math says if you have 3 or more it starts to make sense. plus the orca can either help haul a lot or act as a decent way to collect the ore and pass it off to a hauler.
Hi OP. I'm one of those bad wardeccers people have warned you about.
Don't worry, I don't look for targets in NC Q&A. Anywhere else on the forums this post would have placed you on the watchlist, but I believe in fattening up the prey first
Firstly, mining is boring and a poor way to make ISK, because legitimate miners have to compete with bots. Bots get banned a lot, but enough exist that the ISK per hour is low.
If you insist on mining, safety is YOUR responsibility.
Chainsaw's advice is reasonable, but you might do better temporarily relocating to wormholes if you want to use ventures under wardec. Wormholes have excellent ore and while they have their own unique challenges (you should read up on these), they are more lucrative than highsec.
I make my ISK through trading. I have a very solid knowledge of the economic impact of miner ganking and have carved out a niche buying mining supplies from gankers for resale to, uh, future ganking clients, and supplying weapons to gankers at discount rates. I make more doing this in a week than I'd be able to make mining in a month. You can look for niches like this to make ISK.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
336
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Posted - 2015.06.25 14:08:40 -
[18] - Quote
Lost Greybeard wrote:Mining income scales linearly with the number of people involved, roughly, assuming you've got a source of roids capable of supporting them. Three players mining = 3x the isk generation of one player mining. Common misconception. If done correctly even a team of 2 characters can make more per character over a given period of time versus a solo character. As in real life profit in mining are heavily dependent on moving the maximum amount of ore from mining site to refining / sale sight over a given period of time. This is where and how 2 or more characters are able to earn more per character than they could if they were mining solo.
Ore you choose to mine is also of critical importance. The ores that sell for the highest price per unit are not always the most profitable to mine since you will mine fewer units of these ores over a given period of time. Some experimentation will be needed to determine the best ore to mine in your area. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3460
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Posted - 2015.06.26 01:56:33 -
[19] - Quote
In general: 2 ships, its best if they are miners. 3 to 5: one orca and the rest miners, the orca hauls when full. 6 and above, add a hauler to keep emptying the orca, so the orca can remain in the belt.
Wars: Do not go out and mine in high sec during a war. You can try low, or have everyone drop to NPC corps for the duration, or play on your alts for the duration.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Svenja Timofeyeva
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
129
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Posted - 2015.06.26 12:33:03 -
[20] - Quote
You people recruit? |
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Pixie Tickle
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
129
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Posted - 2015.06.26 12:33:03 -
[21] - Quote
You people recruit? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24084
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Posted - 2015.06.26 15:39:06 -
[22] - Quote
Yosef Stallion Sparkle wrote:Me and about 4 of my friends (all of us relatively new to the game) stated a corporation hoping to work as a group to make more isk. At the moment we are trying to figure out how we should go about earning it (mining ops or mission running). We have considered saving for an orca and running ops with hulks and covetors but aren't sure if we have enough people to turn a decent profit even with the orca's buffs. So the question is if we had a fleet of 1 hulk, 3 covetors, and 1 orca, would we be making a decent enough profit to justify the purchase of an orca, and if not, what is a good alternative? It may be a wise idea to drop the word mining from your corporation name, unless of course you're using it as bait to attract suicide gankers and war decs. On a related note, try and avoid the words mining and missioning in your corp description, they are flags that various people use for target selection.
With reference to ships: Ventures are great, while a little squishy they're fast, difficult to hold down and can be used for more nefarious purposes. Exhumer/barge wise, with the exception of Procurers and Skiffs most of them are made of tissue paper and explode when sneezed upon. If you're going to use an Orca, don't make the mistake of fitting it for maximum cargo, you end up with a small percentage of the potential HP and an expensive killmail waiting to happen.
Sabriz Adoudel is worth speaking to about potential fits, as both a suicide ganker and a member of a wardec corp she knows exactly what makes a target undesirable to hit.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
335
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Posted - 2015.06.26 21:09:54 -
[23] - Quote
Yosef Stallion Sparkle wrote:Me and about 4 of my friends (all of us relatively new to the game) stated a corporation hoping to work as a group to make more isk. At the moment we are trying to figure out how we should go about earning it (mining ops or mission running). We have considered saving for an orca and running ops with hulks and covetors but aren't sure if we have enough people to turn a decent profit even with the orca's buffs. So the question is if we had a fleet of 1 hulk, 3 covetors, and 1 orca, would we be making a decent enough profit to justify the purchase of an orca, and if not, what is a good alternative? Mining or Missions? Do both, and other things like dive into wormholes for combat or gas; variety is a great antidote to tedium.
Orca? It's an awesome ship. Not only can it boost your mining operation 30-40%, but it's great for it's ability to haul your stuff - including fitted ships. The problem is that it requires a lot of specialized training time that one of your members would have to be willing to commit to. It's really ideal for an alt.
Wardec? They happen, and they frequently crush corporations that aren't ready to deal with them. It's unlikely you could defeat them unless it's someone just running a bluff. It's better to blueb___ them (as some null sec groups have perfected with their enemies) until you get some combat experience somewhere else such as RvB or FW. Note that the wardecer will frequently try to get someone "inside" your corp first so be wary of players wanting to join your group. To deal with wardecs you could have jump clones on the other side of Eve, you could have a corp member start another corp and jump to it, or you could all move to an NPC corp for a while and run your operations via a Fleet instead of corp.
Hulk and Covetor? I recommend that new miners stick with mining barges for a while. Exhumers is a long train for minimal gain which I think is better spent trying other aspects of Eve until you know you want to commit to mining. Also, you should have a Procurer to mine with because it will almost eliminate suicide ganking threats. You can switch to a hulk when you know the system is safe.
Good luck & welcome to Eve!
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