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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
209
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:52:20 -
[121] - Quote
Alexander McKeon wrote:Masaaq wrote:Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar. Sentries with no special optimal + tracking bonus would be fine on the Ishtar; turn it into an optimal range bonus for heavy drones or something so that they can operate outside of easy smartbomb range; that would keep the Ishtar in possession of a unique, interesting bonus without giving it game-wrecking damage projection.
the ishtar has been able to fit 5 sentrys since forever, and there was no issue with it; the real problems started when you gave it the optimal+tracking bonuses; so why not just remove those bonuses instead of nerfing right left and centre and hope you got it right this time? this is what, third or fourth nef regarding ishtar? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
747
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:53:12 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
How do you reconcile the particular case of the Ishtar competing not within its own class with other HACs, but with Battleships, even post-Scylla?
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Elana Apgar
Static-Noise Upholders
56
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:54:02 -
[123] - Quote
These changes look great! |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1433
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:54:12 -
[124] - Quote
You know, it's clearly not right or the whole story since, you know, missiles aren't there. |
Akasha Mayan
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
10
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:55:15 -
[125] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!
I really don't want to be negative, as I appreciate you're at least not ignoring it (even more than a year after starting to tap at it) but, quite probably nothing. Because as a battleship it's not usefully competitive with ishtars which do the same dps from range, moving twice the speed and without even having to commit. It's way less mobile, slow and a pain in the ass compared to any cruiser fleet that will still still run rings around it.
That is the general undesirability of BS. For long range travel (where 'long range' is 10 jumps now), can't superhighway them through Thera in workable numbers and don't hit any HACs at all for enough of a damn to make it worth the trouble.
Can you really not see it? Ishtars as a free-mobile flexible doctrine need to die. They are a constraint on general fleet diversity and a cancer on the game. You can't fit anything smaller to chance any kind of asymmetric fight (frankly, you're also likely to be slower while trying) for a result other than to die, so to stand a chance the easiest answer is just use the same. That's boring. That's been the case for a very long time now. This is why plenty of us hate it so much.
How many of us use ishtars with anything but sentries as its primary weapon system? Yeah none of us, right. I'm on board with the ishtar/vexor et al being a different way (with different vulnerabilities) to compose and fight a fleet but that it can deploy these sentries effectively and then run off distorts the hull beyond sense.
Try breaking them. even for a weekend. See if anyone uses the hull at all. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
747
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:55:17 -
[126] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep"
Because perhaps the rest are in line and they funked up with cruiser drone bandwidths when DDAs were introduced, and again with Ishtar double-bonused sentries and enough cargobay to hold three sets? Nbd, maybe. Getting every cruiser to Vexor levels is not the answer. Getting every HAC to Ishtar levels is not the answer. Get it? Good. Holy **** no body said "hurr get the power level to ishtar levels" like god damn you took that 0 to crazy in one post
Vexor, VNI & Ishtar are fine then?
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Alexhandr Shkarov
Swamphole Inc. Swamphole
17
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:56:07 -
[127] - Quote
Quote:First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE
The current changes are nice but they essentially don't change the true problem of the Ishtar, Sentry Drones. If you truly want to change the meta, you'll be much better off by actually removing all sentry bonuses to the ship's hull, and invest those bonuses into more heavy drones benefits.
Now I may be completely off the bat here, but what would happen if the bonuses would change to:
Gallente Cruiser Bonus per Level: - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone damage (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus) - 7.5% bonus to velocity and tracking
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses per skill-level - 2500m bonus to drone operation range (-2500 to lower engage range and make them more risky) - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone health (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus)
Role Bonus: Drones take 15% less damage from Smartbombs
Just thinking about something that could be an idea? It would make sentries a lot weaker and force them, in combination with the slot changes, to possibly be more close-range focused?
All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.
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Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
83
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:59:03 -
[128] - Quote
Can you please listen to the feedback from the community which has been consistent and aligned for years on this topic.
This is the third crack of the whip at the Ishtar and each time we've given the same feedback (and each time it has been ignored). I'm sorry but this is very poor and you need to take a step back and do this properly. I can't think of any reason why any other drone ships need particular balancing at this point in time as a side-effect of fixing the Ishtar.
Adding another low slot is interesting for versatility, but it doesn't address the major issue. All you end up with is pilots compensating by using the spare low for additional PG or additional DPS or another Omni.
Even the laziest among us would have simply tuned the tracking/range bonus on the hull down to the point where it became balanced.
Please re-think. |
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Nolen Trading
36
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:59:45 -
[129] - Quote
[quote]Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: Holy **** no body said "hurr get the power level to ishtar levels" like god damn you took that 0 to crazy in one post
Vexor, VNI & Ishtar are fine then?
Vexor and VNI aren't underused nor underweight for their class
I said UNDERUSED and UNDERPOWERED SHIPS
I didn't say anything about the vexor or VNI, I talked about the punisher and Rupture, PLEASE READ I'm not talking in morse code, nothing I mentioned referenced the VNI or Vexor |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1728
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:00:14 -
[130] - Quote
Maybe I should phrase this a different way -- what reasons do you, CCP, have for NOT removing the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar? It'd still be able to field them, just not with the overtuned proficiency it enjoys now.
With the short release cycle, the danger of tuning something down too much is just not that big of a deal, because you can revisit it very quickly.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
2
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:04:22 -
[131] - Quote
When I ECM an Ishtar, should it not lose control of its drones?
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Otsdarva IV
Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore
83
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:04:24 -
[132] - Quote
Altrue wrote:
And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single drone boat. Were they really all that OP??
[/url]
Yes?
Kite Tristan 5.5kmps heated with 120 dps and MSE Brawl Tristan full rack neuts and 120 dps with SAAR @ 1kmps Tristan with any fit ever
Algos brawl fit with 270 dps and 11k ehp Kite algos 2.5kmps heated 250 dps Algos with neuts
Vexor #1 t1 cruiser in the game VNI one of the best if not the best navy cruiser for fleets based simply on it's flexibility. Domi has crazy utility and huge staying power. Obv
All of the guristas ships are obvious
I don't know what else you want me to say
Drones are cancer remove forever ty ccp |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
652
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:07:22 -
[133] - Quote
The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.
You introduced DDAs, DPS goes up because the base damage was already somewhat balanced but applying it is still difficult with drone mwd speed, tracking and the easy killing of mobile drones. But then you introduced Omnis and suddenly sentries are doubling their range and tracking. Projection goes crazy. Double down on the change by giving a bunch of ships optimal bonuses.
So you're still trying to figure out how to fix this mess while introducing tracking mods for missiles that are improving on ranges that are already balanced (if not op already on some bonused ships, barring HAM/Torps)
So the Ishtar will die, once you've figured out it's not the damage but the ability to kite and project damage so much better than anything else.
Then 150km Caracals, Cerbs and Ravens will be the flavour of the year you spend trying to figure out what went wrong, nerfing every mod and ship on the way down until you figure out those tracking mods were the cause.
Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? |
Ghenghis Kralj
Big Johnson's P I R A T
106
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:07:49 -
[134] - Quote
if you want to actually solve the meta issue:
(A) dump drone assist completely (B) remove sentries from Ishtars
Once you do this, these other changes aren't necessary, and you won't be ruining other hulls by accident. |
Otsdarva IV
Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:07:56 -
[135] - Quote
Lim Hiaret wrote:When I ECM an Ishtar, should it not lose control of its drones?
No when you kill his drones he should lose control of them, jamming him should do what it does now.
One of the benefits of using drones |
twit brent
Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance
28
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:09:39 -
[136] - Quote
Are supers going to get a damage increase to compensate? Sick of getting repeated nerfs on a ship i never log in. |
Otsdarva IV
Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:10:29 -
[137] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.
Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?
To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
747
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:10:45 -
[138] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Vexor and VNI aren't underused nor underweight for their class
I said UNDERUSED and UNDERPOWERED SHIPS
This thread is abovt overpowered.
twit brent wrote:Are supers going to get a damage increase to compensate?
Otsdarva IV wrote:Altrue wrote:
And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single drone boat. Were they really all that OP??
[/url]
Yes? Kite Tristan 5.5kmps heated with 120 dps and MSE Brawl Tristan full rack neuts and 120 dps with SAAR @ 1kmps Tristan with any fit ever Algos brawl fit with 270 dps and 11k ehp Kite algos 2.5kmps heated 250 dps Algos with neuts Vexor #1 t1 cruiser in the game VNI one of the best if not the best navy cruiser for fleets based simply on it's flexibility. Domi has crazy utility and huge staying power. Obv All of the guristas ships are obvious I don't know what else you want me to say Drones are cancer remove forever ty ccp
++ ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦)
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Valterra Craven
585
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:11:24 -
[139] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maybe I should phrase this a different way -- what reasons do you, CCP, have for NOT removing the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar? It'd still be able to field them, just not with the overtuned proficiency it enjoys now.
With the short release cycle, the danger of tuning something down too much is just not that big of a deal, because you can revisit it very quickly.
I tried that tactic in the last thread we had about drone nerfs. It didn't work then and it wont work now. You have to assume the person on the other end is willing to think logically.
But given their stupid stance on "flavor" aka the kinetic lock on caldari missile boats, don't expect anything reasonable from them here either. |
Rumpelstilz Rumtopf
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:12:06 -
[140] - Quote
do u want learn destroy a funny game?
see rise at work. |
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Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:13:27 -
[141] - Quote
I for one welcome our new Armor Ishtar Overlords
may it be a happy year until the next iteration! |
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Nolen Trading
36
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:14:41 -
[142] - Quote
Otsdarva IV wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.
Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however
The armageddon, the arbitrator, the dragoon, drone based legions, drone based proteus, the stratios, the astero, the nestor, the archon. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
655
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:09 -
[143] - Quote
Otsdarva IV wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.
Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however
Prophecy, Geddon, Curse, Pilgrim, Arbitrator, Dragoon, Sentinel. Maybe a couple others depending on your fit for them
After missiles start getting nerfed in about 12 months time, Geddon gets hit again, Sac, Damnation etc get hit. |
Selo ibnSedef
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:20 -
[144] - Quote
everything is happening as ccp chair stated during his keynote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PM0H-teYGg |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
747
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:29 -
[145] - Quote
Karti Aivo wrote:I for one welcome our new Armor Ishtar Overlords
may it be a happy year until the next iteration!
Brawl blaster Ishtar was armour at one time.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Francisco Vazquez Garcia
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:35 -
[146] - Quote
Couldn't the sentries be more vulnerable to damage while they are firing? IE easier to target or (smart)bomb? They could return to current parameters when abandoned.
Maybe drones could also loose a percentage of "power" when the mothership is targeted with ECM (slower rate of fire), or tracking disrupted (tracking), or sensor damped (lowe drone control range). |
Koenig Yazria
Adversity. Northern Coalition.
2
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:42 -
[147] - Quote
Thanks for nerfing all the other ships that you don't really see.
But hey, someone whined for sure, so nerf them all !
This is stupid. |
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:43 -
[148] - Quote
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:Quote:First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE The current changes are nice but they essentially don't change the true problem of the Ishtar, Sentry Drones. If you truly want to change the meta, you'll be much better off by actually removing all sentry bonuses to the ship's hull, and invest those bonuses into more heavy drones benefits. Now I may be completely off the bat here, but what would happen if the bonuses would change to: Gallente Cruiser Bonus per Level: - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone damage (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus) - 7.5% bonus to velocity and tracking
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses per skill-level - 2500m bonus to drone operation range (-2500 to lower engage range and make them more risky) - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone health (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus)
Role Bonus: Drones take 15% less damage from Smartbombs Just thinking about something that could be an idea? It would make sentries a lot weaker and force them, in combination with the slot changes, to possibly be more close-range focused? Or change the role bonus to +150% optimal range and orbit velocity (on non-sentry drones) so they are outside the smartbomb range of the ship they are targeting and stay engaged on faster ships. |
Harry Saq
Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass
91
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:17:34 -
[149] - Quote
Seriously, for the Ishtar, just drop the sentry bonuses and make it heavy drone bonused already. It is not that difficult a riddle, same for any other non-BS using Sentries. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1729
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 17:20:15 -
[150] - Quote
CCP, do not be afraid to over-nerf something. The short release cycle not only aids slow, incremental changes, but larger, more dramatic changes as well. You're so fond of changing and measuring -- why not go further than what your gut tells you, then measure?
Remove sentry bonuses from the Ishtar.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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