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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 05:52:00 -
[1]
Both ships are set up with 3x Magstabs, 3x sensor boosters, 2x tracking comps and 2x tracking enhancers. Fall off isn't discussed because it will be the same per ship, given equal skills. Assume Sharpshooter 5 and BS 5 for both.
Some Hard numbers:
Megathron-
Spike- 186km optimal Iron- 165km optimal Tungsten- 144km Iridium- 124km Lead- 103km optimal
Rokh-
Spike- 279km optimal (redundant after 250km) Iron- 247.5km (lol? right at the 250km lock limit) Tungsten- 216km Iridium- 186km Lead- 154.5km
Examination of the numbers:
After the T2 ammo nerf, Spike L is doing the same damage as Lead ammo instead of Uranium. This is a HUGE nerf, especially to the Megathron/Hyperion. The Hype makes a vastly better sniper than the Mega (lol?) due to the same damage bonus and the extra turret allows for increased DPS by 12.5% over the Mega, all other things being equal. Tracking is irrelevant as something with enough transverse for the Hype to miss, the Mega will also miss.
A TECH ONE Rokh with Iridium can hit as far as a T2 gunned Hyperion. Since Spike L now does as much damage as Lead, Spike is basically only one bracket above Iridum in damage performance.
Assuming maxed skills:
Megathron- 7x T2 425mm (7.943 damage mod)w/ Spike L (32 damage per round)= 1779.23 raw damage per volley.
Rokh- 8x 425mm Prototype (5.8456 damage mod, no T2 skill bonus) w/ Iridium L (28 damage per round) = 1309.414 damage per volley.
At it's maximum range using T2 guns, the Mega has an 35.87% advantage over the Rokh, DPS wise, while the Rokh is still using T1 guns. Note that we're comparing a T2 Mega here to a T1 Rokh.
If we look at a T1 Mega and T1 Rokh, the numbers look like this:
Mega- 7x T1 425mm (7.307 modifier) w/ Iron @ 165km = 1022.98 per volley.
Rokh- 8x T1 425mm (5.8456 modifier) w/ Iridium (which actually outranges the Mega with Iron by a good 20km+) @186km = 1309.4 per volley.
Once you go past the Mega's maximum effective range and start using even longer ranged ammo on the Rokh, the Mega's damage drops to ZERO. Same with the Hyperion.
So what do all these numbers mean? There is a very small window of range where a T2 fitted Megathron outdamages a T1 fitted Rokh. Anything above that range and the Rokh wins, as the Mega can't shoot that far. Anything below the range of a Rokh w/ lead (154km) and the Rokh is again outdamaging the Mega because it can use more powerful ammo at the same range, also without incurring a tracking loss because it's not using Spike.
The reason the Mega (and they Hype) have such poor performance is because Spike L was nerfed. It was reduced from Uranium equivilant damage to Lead equivilant, and because of that the gap between the ranges of ammo was narrowed. So now the damage bonus of the Mega/Hype become even less relevant and the range bonus of the Rokh becomes even more important.
The exact same issues arise when comparing the Brutix/Ferox, the Harpy/Enyo etc.
And now the Javelin T2 high damage ammo has it's shield penalty removed. WTF CCP? Let's just cater to the Caldari players even more why don't you? Why not remove its speed nerf instead of the Shield nerf?
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 05:57:00 -
[2]
Your right murder.. But for me and i'm guessing alot of others we'll be using the Rohk as a blaster boat.. That uber passive tank and huge optimal for blasters makes it pwn so very hard in small gang fights.. KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:01:00 -
[3]
Personally, I like the fact that the Rokh slaps the abusrd longrange T2 ammo in the face, and will help remove the 'YOU MUST HAVE T2 GUNS TO BE USEFUL IN A SNIPER FLEET' situation that Spike has created.
Altho removing T2 ammo and remaking it into side-effect charges would still be a much, much better thing imo.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Hopekiller Mane
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:16:00 -
[4]
Am I missing something here? You're not comparing "apples to apples". Why compare T2 425s to Prototypes? And why not use the same ammo also?
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:19:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hopekiller Mane Am I missing something here? You're not comparing "apples to apples". Why compare T2 425s to Prototypes? And why not use the same ammo also?
Yes you literally are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT. I'm showing that the Rokh with T1 guns is BETTER than a Megathron with T2 guns. And I'm showing how the Rokh, range for range, can use *more damaging ammo* than the Megathron can, for superior DPS across all ranges.
How much more plain can I be?
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:22:00 -
[6]
Yeah the Rohk pwns at all roles with t1 guns.. It's Great being Caldari eh? KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Yeah the Rohk pwns at all roles with t1 guns.. It's Great being Caldari eh?
Because of the Rokh, there is almost no reason to use a T2 gunned ship over a T1 fitted Rokh, unless you're flying a T2 gunned Rokh. The Mega/Hype can't compete with the Rokh for sniping, and they sure as hell arn't worth anything for short range anymore. So I'm left wondering what they're good for?
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:43:00 -
[8]
Forum fodder? KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:47:00 -
[9]
The reason I suspect javolin ammo was changed is becuase before, It's penalities effectively barred it from caldari gunship use. At best, it negated the moa's second bonus,since the moa can also semi armor tank. At worst, look what happens to the cormorat when you load it up currently.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:54:00 -
[10]
From what i've seen so far t2 missiles of all sorts got a damage nerf but the penaltys were greatly reduced.. Now I can fit a missile spammer with all t2 and not watch my cap go to zero in seconds or my max speed go to 2ms.. KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:06:00 -
[11]
So... what... I gotta train ****in' Caldari BS 4/5 now?
This is complete crap. No ship is "better" than another, right?
Bull****.
I'm that much closer to quitting this game.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:14:00 -
[12]
they removed the jav shield bonus? wtf?
this and the fact that the rokh can use nuetron blasters better than a hype can makes me extremely angry.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:18:00 -
[13]
Why? How long till Caldari BS 4 and the new king of blasters? Change is GOOD.. KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc they removed the jav shield bonus? wtf?
this and the fact that the rokh can use nuetron blasters better than a hype can makes me extremely angry.
Well, they removed Javelins shield *penalty*. But ya, haven't you been paying attention?
With Rev1 (what I'm using for Revelations 1 expansion now) they're effectively removing Gallente from the game as far as battleship combat goes.
Because I said so...
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Kaden Seer
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:20:00 -
[15]
uhh, boost the range of all sniper ships except rokh ?
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:21:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/11/2006 07:21:31
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Why? How long till Caldari BS 4 and the new king of blasters? Change is GOOD..
Bull**** isn't good though... Get it?
People like you make me wonder...
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Goca
Minmatar Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: murder one Both ships are set up with 3x Magstabs, 3x sensor boosters, 2x tracking comps and 2x tracking enhancers. Fall off isn't discussed because it will be the same per ship, given equal skills. Assume Sharpshooter 5 and BS 5 for both.
Some Hard numbers:
Megathron-
Spike- 186km optimal Iron- 165km optimal Tungsten- 144km Iridium- 124km Lead- 103km optimal
Rokh-
Spike- 279km optimal (redundant after 250km) Iron- 247.5km (lol? right at the 250km lock limit) Tungsten- 216km Iridium- 186km Lead- 154.5km
Actually don't keep saying it's great to be Caldari, please, well maybe it's great to be Caldari but trust me you are far better off now then if you had trained for a Caldari Raven.. At least you can train for a few days and get into a Rokh and actually use it.. having trained rails..
the scary thing? pretty much every weapon and ammo type you just listed will outrange all but the most highly skilled Raven torpedo pilot and outdamage cruise as well..
Maybe it's great to be Caldari as long as you trained rails.. otherwise it's better to have been a different race who had a rail battleship in their ranks..
anyone wanna buy a very highly skilled torp Raven pilot? comes with free Ravens... I is Goca |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:23:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 25/11/2006 07:24:14
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/11/2006 07:21:31
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Why? How long till Caldari BS 4 and the new king of blasters? Change is GOOD..
Bull**** isn't good though... Get it?
People like you make me wonder...
Yeah I get it but I already have all BS to level 4 so I get to pick and choose the winners..
Sucks to be behind the curve eh? KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kaden Seer uhh, boost the range of all sniper ships except rokh ?
Nah, they won't do that - the POINT of the rokh is that it be able to hit at greater range.
However, the rokh's greater range IMPLYING greater damage is complete bull****.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 25/11/2006 07:24:14
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/11/2006 07:21:31
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Why? How long till Caldari BS 4 and the new king of blasters? Change is GOOD..
Bull**** isn't good though... Get it?
People like you make me wonder...
Yeah I get it but I already have all BS to level 4 so I get to pick and choose the winners..
Sucks to be behind the curve eh?
Hmm. You're 6 months old? Your other skills must REALLY suck.
Or that must not be your main.
Anyway, being "behind the curve" indicates that you are somewhat below average. Does the average character have specialization in 4 weapon systems and specialization in 4 races of ships?
Probably not.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Pattern Clarc they removed the jav shield bonus? wtf?
this and the fact that the rokh can use nuetron blasters better than a hype can makes me extremely angry.
Well, they removed Javelins shield *penalty*. But ya, haven't you been paying attention?
With Rev1 (what I'm using for Revelations 1 expansion now) they're effectively removing Gallente from the game as far as battleship combat goes.
I considered it a bonus because the caldari couldn't use it.
Before, I considered 50% of the canges in kali welcome, and 50% a burden, this has tipped it over the edge in my view.
Looks forward to august... Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:35:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 25/11/2006 07:35:35 Xori..
Yeah.. I'm a no skill forum alt but my main is trained for all t1 ships and has excellent skills in all trees but gunnery.. So you can see why im happy for a BS that doenst take t2 large whatever skills to use effectively.. And FFS how long does it take to get to Caldari BS 4 anyways? If your already have great skills in one area train for another.. So far the Rohk is the Bs for the masses and even more uber if you are Caldari rail/blaster specialized..
Oh wait most Caldari are missile specialized..
So if you already have leet rail/blaster skills then take a week or so and get into a Rohk.. Belive me you wont regret it.. KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus If your already have great skills in one area train for another.. So far the Rohk is the Bs for the masses and even more uber if you are Caldari rail/blaster specialized..
This is where you're wrong, see? You'd be RIGHT if there were ALL sorts of different ranges and types of T2 rail ammo.
But there isn't!
As a result, we have a battleship that can tank better and snipe as well (with T1 CRAP) as a T2 fitted battleship with uber skills. The Rokh has an insane about of PG and grid compared to other ships used for sniping.
THAT is just ****** up.
And a ship for the "masses"? **** the masses. We're talking about ships here that are used for very specialized endeavours with high end skills. Screw the masses. What, we're throwing this game to the masses now?
Screw them.
Oh wait, CCP is screwing the people who have specialized for **** like this.
Thanks for bending us the **** over.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:43:00 -
[24]
LOL! KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:55:00 -
[25]
What really screws all the other battleships and what makes the Rokh that much better is the massive nerf to T2 ammo damage. If T2 ammo still did big damage, or heck, even more damage to compensate for the increased HP, then there would be a wider margin of performance between the Rokh's T1 guns and T2 guns on other ships.
The devs just keep screwing it up more and more. The short range T2 ammo nerf has ruined the Mega/Hype in combination with the HP increase. The long range ammo nerf has ruined all the T2 long range setups on all the other battleships and made the Rokh even that much better in comparison.
WTF CCP? My T2 425mm rails that I trained two months for are reduced to shooting LEAD at 186km?!!? What the hell is up with that? If you're not Caldari, this game is becoming more and more frustrating.
Because I said so...
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:57:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/11/2006 07:58:43
Originally by: murder one The Hype makes a vastly better sniper than the Mega (lol?) due to the same damage bonus and the extra turret allows for increased DPS by 12.5% over the Mega, all other things being equal.
Which is not true, since the hyp's fittings SUCK.
The rokh's fittings are so **** good that it can tank and snipe. What the ****?
Refer to my sig.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 08:01:00 -
[27]
Is eveyone forgetting the penalty nerfs for t2 ammo too? For fleet action it doesnt really matter what ammo you use as whatever is primary goes POP even with all t1 guns and ammo.. So in reality the T2 damage nerf is balanced by the lower penalty for using it.. So you get to realistically use it in small gang now instead of just fleet.. This is not good? KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 08:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/11/2006 07:58:43
Originally by: murder one The Hype makes a vastly better sniper than the Mega (lol?) due to the same damage bonus and the extra turret allows for increased DPS by 12.5% over the Mega, all other things being equal.
Which is not true, since the hyp's fittings SUCK.
The rokh's fittings are so **** good that it can tank and snipe. What the ****?
Refer to my sig.
I can fit 8x t2 425s on the Hype w/ no fitting mods, but no large rep or MWD.
Because I said so...
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 08:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/11/2006 07:58:43
Originally by: murder one The Hype makes a vastly better sniper than the Mega (lol?) due to the same damage bonus and the extra turret allows for increased DPS by 12.5% over the Mega, all other things being equal.
Which is not true, since the hyp's fittings SUCK.
The rokh's fittings are so **** good that it can tank and snipe. What the ****?
Refer to my sig.
I can fit 8x t2 425s on the Hype w/ no fitting mods, but no large rep or MWD.
That's my point though. The Rokh can too.......... and it has a badass passive tank.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.25 08:22:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/11/2006 08:21:59
Originally by: murder one Agreed. I was just comparing it to the Mega as to what was the better ship between the two rail ships. The Rokh isn't even in the same league, as it's completely overpowered when compared to the two Gal ships.
Yeah, I see what you are saying. I'm not disagreeing with you.
The Rokh is completely unwarranted.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
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