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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:42:00 -
[181]
If we assume that we're not having fights at the utter extremes of range, how does e.g. a megathron rack up against a Rohk?
Intuitively, 25% damage bonus, and what 37.5% tracking should make the mega notably more effective a short ranges. 25% damage boost, being 8.75 'effective' guns. (and ignoring the fact you _could_ fit a launcher or a nos in that last slot) Even at BS 3, it's slightly ahead in terms of damage. Tracking of course, is harder to measure, but I can't help but feel it's effect shouldn't be ignored.
Has anyone drawn a damage graph of Rohk vs. Mega at all ranges up to 250km?
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:48:00 -
[182]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Originally by: murder one Edited by: murder one on 27/11/2006 13:10:44
Originally by: Jin Steele do you not understand that they dont want you to snipe? and giving the mega a range bonus would go against the description of gallente, and its ship line in smaller classes. it is designed to be short range, high damage. if you want the range, fly caldari.
The mega doesn't even do short range well anymore. Everything was fine till the T2 ammo nerf. And wtf? Devs just want Caldari to snipe? Not anyone else?
Did you just say that the Devs are against anyone in the game being able to snipe besides Caldari? Did I just hear you right?
I think you did.
The "roles" of the different races have allways been. Caldari: Range. Gallente: Damage. Amarr: Tank. Minmatar: Versility.
That they don't all live up to these ideals, they are what they are supposed to work towards. Rokh just does what its supposed to.
I don't have an issue with the Rokh doing it's job. I do have an issue with no other races being able to compete with it.
But they do compete.. just not in the same category. Otherwise we would have racial roles like this. Caldari: Range Gallente: Range Amarr: Tank Minmatar: Tank
You want an edge that is different for each ship. Yes, Rokh excells at long range, but is not to good at short range, tank or versility. I wouldn't mind trying a Sniper Rokh agenst a Blaster Thron.. i bet the thron would win, because it's at its edge.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:50:00 -
[183]
Originally by: infraX
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Personally, I like the fact that the Rokh slaps the abusrd longrange T2 ammo in the face, and will help remove the 'YOU MUST HAVE T2 GUNS TO BE USEFUL IN A SNIPER FLEET' situation that Spike has created.
Altho removing T2 ammo and remaking it into side-effect charges would still be a much, much better thing imo.
What makes you think that you deserve to be on par using T1 guns with someone that has specialized in gunnery and might have up to 10million skill points (or more) in one type of turret?
Because gameplay that makes "I have T2 = I win now" is broken. T2 guns are more powerful than T1 already. They don't also need capabilities that the T1 pilot just cannot compete with.
Or are you trying to tell me you consider it unreasonable for 6mil sps characters to want to join in fleet battles?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:55:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Aramendel on 27/11/2006 14:00:13
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes But they do compete.. just not in the same category.
The problem is that range > everything in fleet battles. It's the joker - you cannot counter it exept by itself. The only, singular counter you can use vs a fleet of enemy rohks is having a greater rohk fleet yourself.
Originally by: James Lyrus Or are you trying to tell me you consider it unreasonable for 6mil sps characters to want to join in fleet battles?
Personally, no. But I do consider it unreasonable that they have a higher range than 20 mil people with t2 guns.
And nevermind the problems with t2 vs t2 ammo. That basically makes all non-rohk BS (with t2 ammo) the same as what BSs with t1 ammo are now to those with t2 ammo. Effeciently useless because they cannot get the range of the max range BS (now those with t2 ammo, in 2 days Rohks). That I consider rather unreasonable, too.
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Alpdruck
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:56:00 -
[185]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Or are you trying to tell me you consider it unreasonable for 6mil sps characters to want to join in fleet battles?
How about non-caldari characters? Why can they not compete, too?
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:58:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes But they do compete.. just not in the same category.
The problem is that range > everything in fleet battles. It's the joker - you cannot counter it exept by itself. The only, singular counter you can use vs a fleet of enemy rohks is having a greater rohk fleet yourself.
Well, since everone will have these fleets of Roks, I will just fit a heave kin/therm tank.. making the enemy very predictable is a bad thing.. for the enemy
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:01:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Well, since everone will have these fleets of Roks, I will just fit a heave kin/therm tank.. making the enemy very predictable is a bad thing.. for the enemy
And this will do you what good exactly if you cannot shoot back?
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:05:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Def Antares on 27/11/2006 14:05:59
Originally by: agram tabris Edited by: agram tabris on 27/11/2006 12:41:59
it's ok for me to see that caldari finaly can use rails. howewer i don't agree that rails are caldari primary weapons. maybe on datasheets, but in game; 80%+ of caldari pilots prefer missiles.
yeah cause they had no railship lolz. i know so many caldari who have been training their guns up to use the rokh. also i have 8 mill in guns, more than missiles, and im not alone i know.
(and yes, i also have drone skills )
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:05:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Well, since everone will have these fleets of Roks, I will just fit a heave kin/therm tank.. making the enemy very predictable is a bad thing.. for the enemy
And this will do you what good exactly if you cannot shoot back?
Give me time to get in range. Even tho I'll only tank 3 or 4 vollies, it will give the rest of my fleet time to get closer. And if each of "us" can take 3 or 4 vollies before we are forced to warp away, the Rokh fleet will soon pressed. Yes, they can move, but that will make them miss more.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:09:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Well, since everone will have these fleets of Roks, I will just fit a heave kin/therm tank.. making the enemy very predictable is a bad thing.. for the enemy
And this will do you what good exactly if you cannot shoot back?
Give me time to get in range. Even tho I'll only tank 3 or 4 vollies, it will give the rest of my fleet time to get closer. And if each of "us" can take 3 or 4 vollies before we are forced to warp away, the Rokh fleet will soon pressed. Yes, they can move, but that will make them miss more.
LOL. You've never been in a fleet battle have you? You won't tank 3-4 volleys. You won't tank one volley. And no way will you close the 50km difference you will need to close with the enemy to do battle in time before you're dead.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:12:00 -
[191]
Originally by: James Lyrus If we assume that we're not having fights at the utter extremes of range, how does e.g. a megathron rack up against a Rohk?
Intuitively, 25% damage bonus, and what 37.5% tracking should make the mega notably more effective a short ranges. 25% damage boost, being 8.75 'effective' guns. (and ignoring the fact you _could_ fit a launcher or a nos in that last slot) Even at BS 3, it's slightly ahead in terms of damage. Tracking of course, is harder to measure, but I can't help but feel it's effect shouldn't be ignored.
Has anyone drawn a damage graph of Rohk vs. Mega at all ranges up to 250km?
FFS!!! DO YOU NOT READ THE POSTS? I already did all the math for you in the original post for this thread. Go look at it.
Because I said so...
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Romulan Dominiae
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:18:00 -
[192]
you did the maths yeah. you genious. you compared T2 to T1 guns, only that yout T1's were Prototype Gauss Guns, which are 15 mill a piece and have the same stats as T2 guns.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:33:00 -
[193]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Well, since everone will have these fleets of Roks, I will just fit a heave kin/therm tank.. making the enemy very predictable is a bad thing.. for the enemy
And this will do you what good exactly if you cannot shoot back?
Give me time to get in range. Even tho I'll only tank 3 or 4 vollies, it will give the rest of my fleet time to get closer. And if each of "us" can take 3 or 4 vollies before we are forced to warp away, the Rokh fleet will soon pressed. Yes, they can move, but that will make them miss more.
LOL. You've never been in a fleet battle have you? You won't tank 3-4 volleys. You won't tank one volley. And no way will you close the 50km difference you will need to close with the enemy to do battle in time before you're dead.
I have been in fleet battles and I have survived 3 vollies from the enemy fleet. And got out with armor to spare. Granted, it would have been gone on the 4th volly, but still. And since we are on the personal experience, you clearly havn't tried sniping in Kali? 7 t2 fitted sniper boats of varius races (except minni) are not able to down a Deimos. Even tho we got several vollies in. A Myrmidion also go away and BS were just laughing.
Sniping will die in the near future to the power of a good tank. Thats my personal oppinion.
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Trev Kachanov
Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:53:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Romulan Dominiae you did the maths yeah. you genious. you compared T2 to T1 guns, only that yout T1's were Prototype Gauss Guns, which are 15 mill a piece and have the same stats as T2 guns.
ROFL they're still cheaper than t2.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:17:00 -
[195]
The biggest thing most of you whiners just don't want to understand is that CCP wants to have a difference between the races. To call a optirange bonus unbalanced makes me believe most of you just don't want to compare the ships within a big picture.
I always see comparisons between one ship and another. Also, no one thinks about all the factors within fleet battles. No, this would be too much to think about and so it is better for several people to just cry and tell other people they are noobs or havent been in fleetbattles. So, just to give some certain hints again...
fleet battle: contains long AND close range combat
The range for long range combat will be set by the current ships opti. It is just ridicolous to believe that a fleet commander will force the majority of his fleet to stay outside of their range to deal dmg. While considering this fact, a Rokh will deal about the same dmg as the other battleships at this range while the Rokhs chance to hit begins to drop.
The close range combat will be ruled by the current ships, because a Rokhs chance to hit will be utterly crap at close range. Additional there must be admitted that most of pre-Kali BS have boni which enhance their dmg by RoF or dmg bonus. Especially the Megathron will be the best ship in terms os hit-ratio at close range if you have got a smart fleet commander. Especially the sig radius of the new tier3 BS will be the main reason for preKali ships to deal better dmg at close range.
While in longrange combat all ships have the chance to escape, even though the chance in large sized fleetbattles will be less, in close range combat there will be almost no chance to escape due to easier usage of tacklers and the higher dmg.
The opti range of Rokh is only unbalanced as long as you are too dumb to warp out just at this is already in preKali the fact if you encounter an Eagle or a stealth bomber at 100km+ while you are sitting in a cruiser/frig.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:21:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Romulan Dominiae you did the maths yeah. you genious. you compared T2 to T1 guns, only that yout T1's were Prototype Gauss Guns, which are 15 mill a piece and have the same stats as T2 guns.
WTF does price have to do with anything? I'm comparing DPS and range. I could give a crap about ISK. I have over three quarters of a billion ISK in a sniping setup, just for kicks. What do I care about ISK?
Because I said so...
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:24:00 -
[197]
Ah and btw..."Success leads to stagnation, stagnation leads to failure!" Learn to adapt to the new gameplay.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:28:00 -
[198]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 27/11/2006 15:28:17
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: welsh wizard As far as I'm concerned the best thing about the large railgun batteries is antimatter and javelin ammo. The rest of its merely a distraction.
The op also conveniently forgot about the Megathrons tracking bonus. At the end of the day the most important thing as far as these railgun platforms are concerned is damage and both Gallente battleships are capable of outdamaging the Rokh.
The tech I Rokh just isn't in the same league as a tech II thron.
The whole problem here is that the tech 1 Rokh IS in the same league as the tech 2 thron. The tracking bonus MAKES NO DIFFERENCE at those ranges. The rokh can just get a bit farther away and outdamage the Mega with tech 1 nubcrap.
No it doesn't, range is far easier to dictate than damage and the Megathron has 8.75 turrets (equivalent with damage bonus) with a tracking bonus. The Rokh has 8 turrets with no bonus.
No matter how much you twist it the Megathron and the Hyperion do more damage.
Simple.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:36:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
I have been in fleet battles and I have survived 3 vollies from the enemy fleet. And got out with armor to spare. Granted, it would have been gone on the 4th volly, but still. And since we are on the personal experience, you clearly havn't tried sniping in Kali? 7 t2 fitted sniper boats of varius races (except minni) are not able to down a Deimos. Even tho we got several vollies in. A Myrmidion also go away and BS were just laughing.
Sniping will die in the near future to the power of a good tank. Thats my personal oppinion.
LOL! Seven? That's not a fleet. That's a small gang. Try thirty or fifty. That's a FLEET. And I'm talking the shooters, the BSs, not the other 100 or so support craft. No way in hell are you surviving a single volley from 30 BS.
And yes, I've tried sniping in Kali, with all four Tier3 BSs, as well as the Tier2s, before the recent mirror erased my Amarr and Caldari BS training. I was getting over 2000 damage per volley out of the Abaddon, but less range than the Mega/Maelstrom. The Hype did good, but not as well as the Rokh. I was able to warp in to FFA1 and down a number of ships with a Rokh using Antimatter with 425 T2s at 80-90km. That's using Antimatter at 80km! That's insane! Antimatter hits so hard, I'd be out of cap before I ran outta ammo and had to reload. I'd have about 3-5 rounds left and then be at 0 cap. Cap rigs fixed that right up.
The DPs of the Rokh is just silly when it can use such heavy hitting ammo at long ranges like that (80km is long when the Mega's optimal with AM is around 40km).
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:40:00 -
[200]
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 27/11/2006 15:28:17
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: welsh wizard As far as I'm concerned the best thing about the large railgun batteries is antimatter and javelin ammo. The rest of its merely a distraction.
The op also conveniently forgot about the Megathrons tracking bonus. At the end of the day the most important thing as far as these railgun platforms are concerned is damage and both Gallente battleships are capable of outdamaging the Rokh.
The tech I Rokh just isn't in the same league as a tech II thron.
The whole problem here is that the tech 1 Rokh IS in the same league as the tech 2 thron. The tracking bonus MAKES NO DIFFERENCE at those ranges. The rokh can just get a bit farther away and outdamage the Mega with tech 1 nubcrap.
No it doesn't, range is far easier to dictate than damage and the Megathron has 8.75 turrets (equivalent with damage bonus) with a tracking bonus. The Rokh has 8 turrets with no bonus.
No matter how much you twist it the Megathron and the Hyperion do more damage.
Simple.
No, they don't. They don't do the same damage at the same range. They do less damage at any given range, until they're within the optimal range of the Mega/Hype using antimatter.
The Rokh using 8 turrets with antimatter at 80km is doing *more* damage than the Mega with 7 turrets and it's damage bonus is doing at 80km while having to use thorium ammo to achieve the same optimal range. Why are people not understanding this? It's so "simple".
Because I said so...
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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:41:00 -
[201]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: infraX
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Personally, I like the fact that the Rokh slaps the abusrd longrange T2 ammo in the face, and will help remove the 'YOU MUST HAVE T2 GUNS TO BE USEFUL IN A SNIPER FLEET' situation that Spike has created.
Altho removing T2 ammo and remaking it into side-effect charges would still be a much, much better thing imo.
What makes you think that you deserve to be on par using T1 guns with someone that has specialized in gunnery and might have up to 10million skill points (or more) in one type of turret?
Because gameplay that makes "I have T2 = I win now" is broken. T2 guns are more powerful than T1 already. They don't also need capabilities that the T1 pilot just cannot compete with.
Or are you trying to tell me you consider it unreasonable for 6mil sps characters to want to join in fleet battles?
6mil sp players can join in fleet battles if they want, but they shouldn't expect to be able to compete with people using tech 2 fitted gunships and many times more sp, no. They should stick to roles other than sniping, or engage at closer range if they insist on it. Ofcourse T2 guns are more powerful than T1, and I think if you speacialise in gunnery like that, you should expect greater range and superior damage. Looks like the whiners that go "wah wah, I can't use T2 guns and snipe all these guys sat at 200km with theirs and I can't compete..." just got their way with the Rokh.
What's next? "I can't tank as well as someone with more sp and T2 tanks - boost T1 tanks so they are on par with T2".
Apalling.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:45:00 -
[202]
You miss a point. Who is going to fly ECM ships if you get all Caldari BS pilots into a Rokh? This tactic you can only use if you abandon the option of electronic warfare in terms of ECM and if you abandon all other ships like Tempest, Mega, Apoc, Geddon.
Sorry murder one, but the argument you are introducing is nothing more than a fairy tale Caldari mothers tell their children as goodnight tale
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:46:00 -
[203]
IMO, T2 ammo should never allow you to do things that simply cannot be done with T1 fittings, it should allow you to do the same things but better. Thas in line with all of the other T2 modules in the game- not different from T1 and named, just better at the same thing.
For damage, this is obvious- same range, better damage, w00t. Its trickier with range though- does enabling a rail gun to fire effectively at 250km with T2 ammo and 150km with T1 ammo constitute T2 doing "the same thing but better" or does it have it doing something that T1 modules can't even dream of?
If the former then good. If the latter, then it needs balancing. -----------------------------------------------
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:47:00 -
[204]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 27/11/2006 15:28:17
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: welsh wizard As far as I'm concerned the best thing about the large railgun batteries is antimatter and javelin ammo. The rest of its merely a distraction.
The op also conveniently forgot about the Megathrons tracking bonus. At the end of the day the most important thing as far as these railgun platforms are concerned is damage and both Gallente battleships are capable of outdamaging the Rokh.
The tech I Rokh just isn't in the same league as a tech II thron.
The whole problem here is that the tech 1 Rokh IS in the same league as the tech 2 thron. The tracking bonus MAKES NO DIFFERENCE at those ranges. The rokh can just get a bit farther away and outdamage the Mega with tech 1 nubcrap.
No it doesn't, range is far easier to dictate than damage and the Megathron has 8.75 turrets (equivalent with damage bonus) with a tracking bonus. The Rokh has 8 turrets with no bonus.
No matter how much you twist it the Megathron and the Hyperion do more damage.
Simple.
No, they don't. They don't do the same damage at the same range. They do less damage at any given range, until they're within the optimal range of the Mega/Hype using antimatter.
The Rokh using 8 turrets with antimatter at 80km is doing *more* damage than the Mega with 7 turrets and it's damage bonus is doing at 80km while having to use thorium ammo to achieve the same optimal range. Why are people not understanding this? It's so "simple".
I am understanding it, completely. Like I said "range is far easier to dictate than damage". Gallente hybrid ships do more damage than Caldari hybrid ships.
More damage is infinitely preferable to range, but maybe thats because I fight a little differently?
If you plan on spending all you time sat at 150km sniping then I guess you're correct, the Megathrons real strength however is its versatility with high damage ammo below 100km.
You tell Outbreak that the Rokh is better than the Megathron, they'll happily dismantle anything you throw at them with their Megathron fleet.
The problem isn't the ships, the problem is everyones perception of fleet warfare, the obsession with being at the maximum possible range, ie,, as far away from danger as is feasibly possible.
A megathrons optimal is wherever antimatter and Javelin hit best, at that range its unrivalled in fleet combat.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:47:00 -
[205]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Originally by: murder one Edited by: murder one on 27/11/2006 13:10:44
Originally by: Jin Steele do you not understand that they dont want you to snipe? and giving the mega a range bonus would go against the description of gallente, and its ship line in smaller classes. it is designed to be short range, high damage. if you want the range, fly caldari.
The mega doesn't even do short range well anymore. Everything was fine till the T2 ammo nerf. And wtf? Devs just want Caldari to snipe? Not anyone else?
Did you just say that the Devs are against anyone in the game being able to snipe besides Caldari? Did I just hear you right?
I think you did.
The "roles" of the different races have allways been. Caldari: Range. Gallente: Damage. Amarr: Tank. Minmatar: Versility.
That they don't all live up to these ideals, they are what they are supposed to work towards. Rokh just does what its supposed to.
I don't have an issue with the Rokh doing it's job. I do have an issue with no other races being able to compete with it.
I have an issue with no other Battleship being able to compete with a Dommi as a drone carrier.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:49:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Asariasha The biggest thing most of you whiners just don't want to understand is that CCP wants to have a difference between the races. To call a optirange bonus unbalanced makes me believe most of you just don't want to compare the ships within a big picture.
I always see comparisons between one ship and another. Also, no one thinks about all the factors within fleet battles. No, this would be too much to think about and so it is better for several people to just cry and tell other people they are noobs or havent been in fleetbattles. So, just to give some certain hints again...
fleet battle: contains long AND close range combat
The range for long range combat will be set by the current ships opti. It is just ridicolous to believe that a fleet commander will force the majority of his fleet to stay outside of their range to deal dmg. While considering this fact, a Rokh will deal about the same dmg as the other battleships at this range while the Rokhs chance to hit begins to drop.
The close range combat will be ruled by the current ships, because a Rokhs chance to hit will be utterly crap at close range. Additional there must be admitted that most of pre-Kali BS have boni which enhance their dmg by RoF or dmg bonus. Especially the Megathron will be the best ship in terms os hit-ratio at close range if you have got a smart fleet commander. Especially the sig radius of the new tier3 BS will be the main reason for preKali ships to deal better dmg at close range.
While in longrange combat all ships have the chance to escape, even though the chance in large sized fleetbattles will be less, in close range combat there will be almost no chance to escape due to easier usage of tacklers and the higher dmg.
The opti range of Rokh is only unbalanced as long as you are too dumb to warp out just at this is already in preKali the fact if you encounter an Eagle or a stealth bomber at 100km+ while you are sitting in a cruiser/frig.
What the hell are you talking about? You know nothing about up to date fleet combat. Covert Ops provide warp in points for interdictors, who then bubble up your whole fleet so they can't warp out. Tacklers warp in with the dictors and web your fleet so they can't move out of the dozen or so bubbles that are up. Your shooters warp in shortly after and pound the crap out of the enemy fleet at their optimal range, since there is a second or third covert ops at 100km from the enemy fleet or so, so when you warp to it at 100km, you're at your optimal for your T2 guns at 200km or so.
There is no 'close range' combat. There is never any situation where the Rokh will miss due to a lack of tracking. It has great tracking when you pile on a few tracking comps and tracking enhancers. You sound like a broken record with all your fantastical ideas about 'what fleet combat is really like', when in fact you don't have a f#ckin clue.
Because I said so...
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:51:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
I have an issue with no other Battleship being able to compete with a Dommi as a drone carrier.
Thats cool- lets have more Drone ships then! I've been flying this Domi so long, I'm sick of the sight of it
Seriously though, its a bit of a different issue. Caldari have a monopoly on Missiles, Minmatar are far and away the best with Projectiles, Gallente are the masters of Drones, and Amarr........well, you know. They always have lasers
Thats nothing to do with range, or DPS, or any other thing like that (and like sniper range applies to). Every weapons system can snipe, but its about *how well* they snipe. -----------------------------------------------
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:52:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Well, since everone will have these fleets of Roks, I will just fit a heave kin/therm tank.. making the enemy very predictable is a bad thing.. for the enemy
And this will do you what good exactly if you cannot shoot back?
Why do you insist on warping in outside your max range? why? That's the biggest prob I see here. If your FC insist on warping in at a range where 2/3 of his Battleships can't reach, the FIRE your FC, becuase he is a worthless pile.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:53:00 -
[209]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Asariasha The biggest thing most of you whiners just don't want to understand is that CCP wants to have a difference between the races. To call a optirange bonus unbalanced makes me believe most of you just don't want to compare the ships within a big picture.
I always see comparisons between one ship and another. Also, no one thinks about all the factors within fleet battles. No, this would be too much to think about and so it is better for several people to just cry and tell other people they are noobs or havent been in fleetbattles. So, just to give some certain hints again...
fleet battle: contains long AND close range combat
The range for long range combat will be set by the current ships opti. It is just ridicolous to believe that a fleet commander will force the majority of his fleet to stay outside of their range to deal dmg. While considering this fact, a Rokh will deal about the same dmg as the other battleships at this range while the Rokhs chance to hit begins to drop.
The close range combat will be ruled by the current ships, because a Rokhs chance to hit will be utterly crap at close range. Additional there must be admitted that most of pre-Kali BS have boni which enhance their dmg by RoF or dmg bonus. Especially the Megathron will be the best ship in terms os hit-ratio at close range if you have got a smart fleet commander. Especially the sig radius of the new tier3 BS will be the main reason for preKali ships to deal better dmg at close range.
While in longrange combat all ships have the chance to escape, even though the chance in large sized fleetbattles will be less, in close range combat there will be almost no chance to escape due to easier usage of tacklers and the higher dmg.
The opti range of Rokh is only unbalanced as long as you are too dumb to warp out just at this is already in preKali the fact if you encounter an Eagle or a stealth bomber at 100km+ while you are sitting in a cruiser/frig.
What the hell are you talking about? You know nothing about up to date fleet combat. Covert Ops provide warp in points for interdictors, who then bubble up your whole fleet so they can't warp out. Tacklers warp in with the dictors and web your fleet so they can't move out of the dozen or so bubbles that are up. Your shooters warp in shortly after and pound the crap out of the enemy fleet at their optimal range, since there is a second or third covert ops at 100km from the enemy fleet or so, so when you warp to it at 100km, you're at your optimal for your T2 guns at 200km or so.
There is no 'close range' combat. There is never any situation where the Rokh will miss due to a lack of tracking. It has great tracking when you pile on a few tracking comps and tracking enhancers. You sound like a broken record with all your fantastical ideas about 'what fleet combat is really like', when in fact you don't have a f#ckin clue.
everybody and there brother fits MWD's to there fleet ships now to get out of those bubbles.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:55:00 -
[210]
Originally by: welsh wizard
I am understanding it, completely. Like I said "range is far easier to dictate than damage". Gallente hybrid ships do more damage than Caldari hybrid ships.
More damage is infinitely preferable to range, but maybe thats because I fight a little differently?
If you plan on spending all you time sat at 150km sniping then I guess you're correct, the Megathrons real strength however is its versatility with high damage ammo below 100km.
You tell Outbreak that the Rokh is better than the Megathron, they'll happily dismantle anything you throw at them with their Megathron fleet.
The problem isn't the ships, the problem is everyones perception of fleet warfare, the obsession with being at the maximum possible range, ie,, as far away from danger as is feasibly possible.
A megathrons optimal is wherever antimatter and Javelin hit best, at that range its unrivalled in fleet combat.
Read my reply to the other post above. How are you going to dictate range when you're never allowed in range at all? You're right, it is easy to dictate range, and it's much easier to stay away from someone than it is to close with them. And even assuming a 100km warp in, Rokhs are still going to outdamage you when they're using T1 guns with antimatter at 60-80km, and you're stuck using AM at 35km. And no, tracking doesn't enter into the equation.
Because I said so...
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