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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:57:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
What the hell are you talking about? You know nothing about up to date fleet combat. Covert Ops provide warp in points for interdictors, who then bubble up your whole fleet so they can't warp out. Tacklers warp in with the dictors and web your fleet so they can't move out of the dozen or so bubbles that are up. Your shooters warp in shortly after and pound the crap out of the enemy fleet at their optimal range, since there is a second or third covert ops at 100km from the enemy fleet or so, so when you warp to it at 100km, you're at your optimal for your T2 guns at 200km or so.
There is no 'close range' combat. There is never any situation where the Rokh will miss due to a lack of tracking. It has great tracking when you pile on a few tracking comps and tracking enhancers. You sound like a broken record with all your fantastical ideas about 'what fleet combat is really like', when in fact you don't have a f#ckin clue.
everybody and there brother fits MWD's to there fleet ships now to get out of those bubbles.
I bolded the part that you ignored about the tacklers holding down your MWDing ships in the bubble. Why oh WHY would I not have inties with webs on your BS to keep them inside the god****ed bubble? Why even drop bubbles if I know they're going to MWD out?
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:59:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
I have an issue with no other Battleship being able to compete with a Dommi as a drone carrier.
Why? There are no other drone carrier BSs. As soon as there are some, I'd expect them to be able to compete with the Domi.
Because I said so...
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:05:00 -
[213]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
What the hell are you talking about? You know nothing about up to date fleet combat. Covert Ops provide warp in points for interdictors, who then bubble up your whole fleet so they can't warp out. Tacklers warp in with the dictors and web your fleet so they can't move out of the dozen or so bubbles that are up. Your shooters warp in shortly after and pound the crap out of the enemy fleet at their optimal range, since there is a second or third covert ops at 100km from the enemy fleet or so, so when you warp to it at 100km, you're at your optimal for your T2 guns at 200km or so.
There is no 'close range' combat. There is never any situation where the Rokh will miss due to a lack of tracking. It has great tracking when you pile on a few tracking comps and tracking enhancers. You sound like a broken record with all your fantastical ideas about 'what fleet combat is really like', when in fact you don't have a f#ckin clue.
everybody and there brother fits MWD's to there fleet ships now to get out of those bubbles.
I bolded the part that you ignored about the tacklers holding down your MWDing ships in the bubble. Why oh WHY would I not have inties with webs on your BS to keep them inside the god****ed bubble? Why even drop bubbles if I know they're going to MWD out?
why drop bubbles if they are popped by a large smartbomb easily carried by a mega's 8th empty high slot?
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:09:00 -
[214]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Audri Fisher
I have an issue with no other Battleship being able to compete with a Dommi as a drone carrier.
Why? There are no other drone carrier BSs. As soon as there are some, I'd expect them to be able to compete with the Domi.
The mega is not a sniping Battleship, so stop expecting it to compete with the rohk. The Typhoon USED to be one, but it had it's optimal bonus removed, in favor of a missle ROF bonus.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:11:00 -
[215]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: welsh wizard
I am understanding it, completely. Like I said "range is far easier to dictate than damage". Gallente hybrid ships do more damage than Caldari hybrid ships.
More damage is infinitely preferable to range, but maybe thats because I fight a little differently?
If you plan on spending all you time sat at 150km sniping then I guess you're correct, the Megathrons real strength however is its versatility with high damage ammo below 100km.
You tell Outbreak that the Rokh is better than the Megathron, they'll happily dismantle anything you throw at them with their Megathron fleet.
The problem isn't the ships, the problem is everyones perception of fleet warfare, the obsession with being at the maximum possible range, ie,, as far away from danger as is feasibly possible.
A megathrons optimal is wherever antimatter and Javelin hit best, at that range its unrivalled in fleet combat.
Read my reply to the other post above. How are you going to dictate range when you're never allowed in range at all? You're right, it is easy to dictate range, and it's much easier to stay away from someone than it is to close with them. And even assuming a 100km warp in, Rokhs are still going to outdamage you when they're using T1 guns with antimatter at 60-80km, and you're stuck using AM at 35km. And no, tracking doesn't enter into the equation.
tracking doesn't enter into the equation becuase you insist on zeroing out your transversal. If you positively insist that tracking doesn't enter into the equation, then use spike ammo at 35km, and see how well you do with it.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:12:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Audri Fisher
I have an issue with no other Battleship being able to compete with a Dommi as a drone carrier.
Why? There are no other drone carrier BSs. As soon as there are some, I'd expect them to be able to compete with the Domi.
The mega is not a sniping Battleship, so stop expecting it to compete with the rohk. The Typhoon USED to be one, but it had it's optimal bonus removed, in favor of a missle ROF bonus.
Which reminds me.........what is the Mega for again?!
Its not drones, because thats the Domi. Its not blasters, because thats the Hype.........So what on earth IS the Megathrons role, if not sniping?! -----------------------------------------------
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Romulan Dominiae
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:21:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Patch86
Which reminds me.........what is the Mega for again?!
Its not drones, because thats the Domi. Its not blasters, because thats the Hype.........So what on earth IS the Megathrons role, if not sniping?!
short to medium range railship maybe? thats a range where a tracking bonus would count.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:28:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: welsh wizard
I am understanding it, completely. Like I said "range is far easier to dictate than damage". Gallente hybrid ships do more damage than Caldari hybrid ships.
More damage is infinitely preferable to range, but maybe thats because I fight a little differently?
If you plan on spending all you time sat at 150km sniping then I guess you're correct, the Megathrons real strength however is its versatility with high damage ammo below 100km.
You tell Outbreak that the Rokh is better than the Megathron, they'll happily dismantle anything you throw at them with their Megathron fleet.
The problem isn't the ships, the problem is everyones perception of fleet warfare, the obsession with being at the maximum possible range, ie,, as far away from danger as is feasibly possible.
A megathrons optimal is wherever antimatter and Javelin hit best, at that range its unrivalled in fleet combat.
Read my reply to the other post above. How are you going to dictate range when you're never allowed in range at all? You're right, it is easy to dictate range, and it's much easier to stay away from someone than it is to close with them. And even assuming a 100km warp in, Rokhs are still going to outdamage you when they're using T1 guns with antimatter at 60-80km, and you're stuck using AM at 35km. And no, tracking doesn't enter into the equation.
tracking doesn't enter into the equation becuase you insist on zeroing out your transversal. If you positively insist that tracking doesn't enter into the equation, then use spike ammo at 35km, and see how well you do with it.
Tracking doesn't matter at the ranges we're talking about (200km+, even at 80km), Smartbombs arn't going to touch a bubble that's 10-15km away from you, and the Megathron is/was the de facto sniping fleet BS, no need for that to change in Kali to any large degree. Why do you keep making up stupid scenarios that are not realistic and practical just to suit your arguments? It makes you look like an idiot.
Because I said so...
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Trev Kachanov
Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:31:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Asariasha The biggest thing most of you whiners just don't want to understand is that CCP wants to have a difference between the races. To call a optirange bonus unbalanced makes me believe most of you just don't want to compare the ships within a big picture.
I always see comparisons between one ship and another. Also, no one thinks about all the factors within fleet battles. No, this would be too much to think about and so it is better for several people to just cry and tell other people they are noobs or havent been in fleetbattles. So, just to give some certain hints again...
fleet battle: contains long AND close range combat
The range for long range combat will be set by the current ships opti. It is just ridicolous to believe that a fleet commander will force the majority of his fleet to stay outside of their range to deal dmg. While considering this fact, a Rokh will deal about the same dmg as the other battleships at this range while the Rokhs chance to hit begins to drop.
The close range combat will be ruled by the current ships, because a Rokhs chance to hit will be utterly crap at close range. Additional there must be admitted that most of pre-Kali BS have boni which enhance their dmg by RoF or dmg bonus. Especially the Megathron will be the best ship in terms os hit-ratio at close range if you have got a smart fleet commander. Especially the sig radius of the new tier3 BS will be the main reason for preKali ships to deal better dmg at close range.
While in longrange combat all ships have the chance to escape, even though the chance in large sized fleetbattles will be less, in close range combat there will be almost no chance to escape due to easier usage of tacklers and the higher dmg.
The opti range of Rokh is only unbalanced as long as you are too dumb to warp out just at this is already in preKali the fact if you encounter an Eagle or a stealth bomber at 100km+ while you are sitting in a cruiser/frig.
*cough*warpoutandbackinatrange*cough*
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:34:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Patch86 IMO, T2 ammo should never allow you to do things that simply cannot be done with T1 fittings, it should allow you to do the same things but better. Thas in line with all of the other T2 modules in the game- not different from T1 and named, just better at the same thing.
For damage, this is obvious- same range, better damage, w00t. Its trickier with range though- does enabling a rail gun to fire effectively at 250km with T2 ammo and 150km with T1 ammo constitute T2 doing "the same thing but better" or does it have it doing something that T1 modules can't even dream of?
If the former then good. If the latter, then it needs balancing.
I agree entirely. I have no problem with T2 being able to do more damage, or tank more, or move faster, or whatever. What T2 ammo has introduced, especially the ultra-long range stuff is the kind of attitudes that are here. I have T2, therefore I pwn you.
If you have T2 and they don't you are already better skilled and doing more damage. That's a decisive advantage right there. As far as I'm concerned, T2 stuff should never become 'must have' - better is fine. More skill intensive. Harder to fit, but better. When a T1 railship comes up against a T2 one, then there's nothing the T1 railship can do besides warp.
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Loud Speaker
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:40:00 -
[221]
The people complaining about tracking fail to realize that the Rokh with T1 ammo has 0 tracking penalites vs the megathron using spike right?
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Loud Speaker
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:44:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Loud Speaker on 27/11/2006 16:45:14
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Patch86 IMO, T2 ammo should never allow you to do things that simply cannot be done with T1 fittings, it should allow you to do the same things but better. Thas in line with all of the other T2 modules in the game- not different from T1 and named, just better at the same thing.
For damage, this is obvious- same range, better damage, w00t. Its trickier with range though- does enabling a rail gun to fire effectively at 250km with T2 ammo and 150km with T1 ammo constitute T2 doing "the same thing but better" or does it have it doing something that T1 modules can't even dream of?
If the former then good. If the latter, then it needs balancing.
I agree entirely. I have no problem with T2 being able to do more damage, or tank more, or move faster, or whatever. What T2 ammo has introduced, especially the ultra-long range stuff is the kind of attitudes that are here. I have T2, therefore I pwn you.
If you have T2 and they don't you are already better skilled and doing more damage. That's a decisive advantage right there. As far as I'm concerned, T2 stuff should never become 'must have' - better is fine. More skill intensive. Harder to fit, but better. When a T1 railship comes up against a T2 one, then there's nothing the T1 railship can do besides warp.
You're complaining about T2 being must have, but now Rokhs will be must have instead of other ships with T2 guns. However retaining the current T2 sniper ammo stats means that Rokhs will still be the best snipers at 210km+ but the Amarr, Minmatar and Gallente ships with T2 guns will at least be able to compete a little.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:49:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Audri Fisher Why do you insist on warping in outside your max range? why?
Imagine that, you are not always the fleet warping in.
If a fleet of megas warps in their optimal vs a fleet of rohks the rohks deal 90% of the dps of the megas vs them.
If a fleet of rohks warps in their optimal vs a fleet of megas the megas deal 0% (zero. zip. zilch.) of the dps of the rohks vs them.
Spot the difference!
-------------
Also:
As was said multiple times already: All this has all happened already once - when t2 longrange ammo was introduced. How many ships with t1 ammo do you see in fleetcombat nowadays? Care to explain why not exactly the same thing will happen with rohks vs other battleships?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:52:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Asariasha The opti range of Rokh is only unbalanced as long as you are too dumb to warp out just at this is already in preKali the fact if you encounter an Eagle or a stealth bomber at 100km+ while you are sitting in a cruiser/frig.
Look up the word "interdictor".
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:53:00 -
[225]
Too many are determined to prove that the Megathron is crap that no matter how many times we give you good reasons to think otherwise. You're not going to accept it so we may aswell stop arguing.
The Megathron will remain the undisputed 425mm railgun king in fleet warfare, only the Geddon rivals it at short-medium range.
Convince yourselves otherwise, don't fly it, I don't care.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:58:00 -
[226]
Oh, another thing, your tech II Megathron is likely a similar price to our tech I Rokh with insurance.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:02:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Asariasha The opti range of Rokh is only unbalanced as long as you are too dumb to warp out just at this is already in preKali the fact if you encounter an Eagle or a stealth bomber at 100km+ while you are sitting in a cruiser/frig.
Look up the word "interdictor".
smartbomb *cough*
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:15:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Loud Speaker Edited by: Loud Speaker on 27/11/2006 16:45:14
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Patch86 IMO, T2 ammo should never allow you to do things that simply cannot be done with T1 fittings, it should allow you to do the same things but better. Thas in line with all of the other T2 modules in the game- not different from T1 and named, just better at the same thing.
For damage, this is obvious- same range, better damage, w00t. Its trickier with range though- does enabling a rail gun to fire effectively at 250km with T2 ammo and 150km with T1 ammo constitute T2 doing "the same thing but better" or does it have it doing something that T1 modules can't even dream of?
If the former then good. If the latter, then it needs balancing.
I agree entirely. I have no problem with T2 being able to do more damage, or tank more, or move faster, or whatever. What T2 ammo has introduced, especially the ultra-long range stuff is the kind of attitudes that are here. I have T2, therefore I pwn you.
If you have T2 and they don't you are already better skilled and doing more damage. That's a decisive advantage right there. As far as I'm concerned, T2 stuff should never become 'must have' - better is fine. More skill intensive. Harder to fit, but better. When a T1 railship comes up against a T2 one, then there's nothing the T1 railship can do besides warp.
You're complaining about T2 being must have, but now Rokhs will be must have instead of other ships with T2 guns. However retaining the current T2 sniper ammo stats means that Rokhs will still be the best snipers at 210km+ but the Amarr, Minmatar and Gallente ships with T2 guns will at least be able to compete a little.
Well, I don't agree with your comparison - The only thing that vaguely 'balances' that is the annoyingly artifical 250km range cap. (Which I think should go, but at the same time range variance needs to drop so fights are done at 0-100km). IMO that's a different problem - T2 ammo I still think is (was) overpowered, and much in need of nerfing, although some of it has probably gone from overpowered to underpowered.
The other issue is of course, that of the Rohk outranging other snipers. That's a potential problem, I'd tend to agree. I just consider it the lesser of two evils. After all, I don't see that having one ship (e.g. the megathron) better at 'midrange' vs. the Rohk being better at long range is actually all that big a deal.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:33:00 -
[229]
Edited by: murder one on 27/11/2006 17:36:41
Originally by: James Lyrus
Well, I don't agree with your comparison - The only thing that vaguely 'balances' that is the annoyingly artifical 250km range cap. (Which I think should go, but at the same time range variance needs to drop so fights are done at 0-100km). IMO that's a different problem - T2 ammo I still think is (was) overpowered, and much in need of nerfing, although some of it has probably gone from overpowered to underpowered.
The other issue is of course, that of the Rohk outranging other snipers. That's a potential problem, I'd tend to agree. I just consider it the lesser of two evils. After all, I don't see that having one ship (e.g. the megathron) better at 'midrange' vs. the Rohk being better at long range is actually all that big a deal.
Explaining stuff to you is just getting painful. The Mega IS NOT a better mid ranged sniper than the Rokh. The Rokh is better from Maximum lock range to about 35km, at which point the Mega then outdamages the Rokh. 35km is NOT sniping range. That's close range. At no time is the Mega better at anything whether it be damage or tracking or whatever than the Rokh until the range is under 35km or so. As it stands now there is no point for the Mega to exist when the Rokh is available. Why are people still wondering about this?
P.S.
I'm talking about T1 vs T1, not T2 vs T1. Justifying the Mega by comparing a T2 fit Mega with a T1 fit Rokh to say that it has better midrange performance is bullsh#t.
Because I said so...
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:55:00 -
[230]
1) not all combats are engagements of hundreds of ships 2) range and damage is not only atribute of each ship 3) try to use different tacticis then row of ships shooting to each other (Nelson managed to do it several hundreds years ago) and many other examples can be found in histroy (panther vs crusader tank during WW2)
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
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Loud Speaker
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:04:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Aki Yamato 1) not all combats are engagements of hundreds of ships 2) range and damage is not only atribute of each ship 3) try to use different tacticis then row of ships shooting to each other (Nelson managed to do it several hundreds years ago) and many other examples can be found in histroy (panther vs crusader tank during WW2)
Real life situations have no bearing on this. If you jump a group of megathrons, tempests, apocs, armageddons, etc into a setup Rokh fleet you have 0 chance of killing any of them. Combine this with dictors, mobile large warp bubbles, lag, etc and you cannot escape the cluster F* either.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:10:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Loud Speaker The people complaining about tracking fail to realize that the Rokh with T1 ammo has 0 tracking penalites vs the megathron using spike right?
And about half the DPS at 180km.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:18:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Loud Speaker The people complaining about tracking fail to realize that the Rokh with T1 ammo has 0 tracking penalites vs the megathron using spike right?
And about half the DPS at 180km.
Exept it can reach to 240k with iron. Where the megas dps - no matter which ammo it is using - is zero.
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:27:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Loud Speaker
Originally by: Aki Yamato 1) not all combats are engagements of hundreds of ships 2) range and damage is not only atribute of each ship 3) try to use different tacticis then row of ships shooting to each other (Nelson managed to do it several hundreds years ago) and many other examples can be found in histroy (panther vs crusader tank during WW2)
Real life situations have no bearing on this. If you jump a group of megathrons, tempests, apocs, armageddons, etc into a setup Rokh fleet you have 0 chance of killing any of them. Combine this with dictors, mobile large warp bubbles, lag, etc and you cannot escape the cluster F* either.
I dont thing so. Elements of supprise, experience and morale of pilots .. everything counts.
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Jennie Marlboro
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:32:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
why drop bubbles if they are popped by a large smartbomb easily carried by a mega's 8th empty high slot?
You did see that the 'dictor scan probe's HPs have been increased to 1000, yes?
So now you gotta get to range (which can be a challenge if you're webbed) and pop it four times.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:41:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Aki Yamato
Originally by: Loud Speaker
Originally by: Aki Yamato 1) not all combats are engagements of hundreds of ships 2) range and damage is not only atribute of each ship 3) try to use different tacticis then row of ships shooting to each other (Nelson managed to do it several hundreds years ago) and many other examples can be found in histroy (panther vs crusader tank during WW2)
Real life situations have no bearing on this. If you jump a group of megathrons, tempests, apocs, armageddons, etc into a setup Rokh fleet you have 0 chance of killing any of them. Combine this with dictors, mobile large warp bubbles, lag, etc and you cannot escape the cluster F* either.
I dont thing so. Elements of supprise, experience and morale of pilots .. everything counts.
If you assume such things will win your battles for you, then if you fly against LV you will lose and lose big. Assume your enemy has more surprise, more experience and more morale than you do. Otherwise you've made a mistake.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:42:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Jennie Marlboro
Originally by: Audri Fisher
why drop bubbles if they are popped by a large smartbomb easily carried by a mega's 8th empty high slot?
You did see that the 'dictor scan probe's HPs have been increased to 1000, yes?
So now you gotta get to range (which can be a challenge if you're webbed) and pop it four times.
And very astute of you Jenny to point this out. I was going to mention it, but decided to let them find out themselves in their next fleet battle as they MWD to the center of the warp bubble only to die...
Because I said so...
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:52:00 -
[238]
Well, I have to agree 100% with murderones's argument. Sometime ago every mom & dad and their daughters & sons were flying ravens. It was a ship for the whole family Now the new ueber ship is the rokh.
/emote starts training shield skills and caldari BS
There! I Rokh!
(I am sure once I finish training for the Rokh CCP decides to nerf it )
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:57:00 -
[239]
Edited by: Aramendel on 27/11/2006 18:58:53
Originally by: Aki Yamato I dont thing so. Elements of supprise, experience and morale of pilots .. everything counts.
Yes. And in all things being equal will be on equal amount of each side. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to compare the sides at all.
*Of cource* these things have effects on a battle. But for balancing they are of no consequence - ships are not balanced for assuming the other players better/worse than you, but for equal skill scenarios.
If an mega fleet + experience is equal to a rohk fleet + no experience it does not mean the ships are balanced, but that that you need a more experienced group to make the mega equal to the rohk. It does not show the balanced, but the imbalance.
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Loud Speaker
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:40:00 -
[240]
Where is the downside in allowing Gallente, Amarr and Minmatar snipers to hit 200km+ targets with T2 guns? As for being outdamaged by the megathron butterdog, the Rokh has the extra turret which helps, and can also fit higher damage ammo relative to the megathron which will need lower damage higher range ammo to even do any damage.
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