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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
1020
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Posted - 2015.06.24 15:57:07 -
[1] - Quote
In a continued effort to make sure that the skill of every member of your fleet counts towards the fight, we are making changes to fleet warp mechanics. We've already had a torrent of feedback, and today CCP Larrikin has a dev blog with more details on what is changing.
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro
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CCP Larrikin
C C P C C P Alliance
135
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:02:35 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved for future Q&A =) |
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Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
1722
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:09:44 -
[3] - Quote
I like the addition of broadcasting a bookmark, not so sure it needs a delay (unless that's just unavoidable). Will have to see it in action.
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Mizhir
Matari Exodus The Camel Empire
74441
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:10:27 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:After feedback and discussion, weGÇÖve done some magic on our code and now a wider range of objects will be broadcastable as a Warp-To:
Mission locations Bookmarks (newly created bookmarks will have a delay before being broadcastable) Fleet members Along with all existing broadcastable items
Good call.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Mizhir
Matari Exodus The Camel Empire
74441
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:11:12 -
[5] - Quote
Ned Thomas wrote:I like the addition of broadcasting a bookmark, not so sure it needs a delay (unless that's just unavoidable). Will have to see it in action.
If there wasn't any delay it would just surpass the effect of these changes.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Jyn Artan
0
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:12:16 -
[6] - Quote
The ability to broadcast additional items is a good development.
Question
If you have different corps in a fleet how does the bookmark broadcast work?
Can you just broadcast the location of the bookmark even if other fleet members don't have it in their bookmark list? |
Rath Valent
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
4
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:14:13 -
[7] - Quote
There is already a propagation delay for corp bookmarks that seems to take from a few seconds to a minute plus, probably based on server load and other variable factors.
Has the bookmark propagation delay been embedded in code in the form of "at least x minutes/seconds"?
RV |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
560
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:16:36 -
[8] - Quote
You could just solve the bombing problem by making them decloak each other again under 2k and put the actual skill back in being a bomber FC and pilot. It would remedy so many of the issues you're trying to solve. |
Quesa
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
73
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:25:11 -
[9] - Quote
I think reverting the scan probe time back to ~40 seconds would have fixed a lot. |
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:25:29 -
[10] - Quote
Can you address the near impossibility of catching off-grid boosters with these changes? |
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Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:27:53 -
[11] - Quote
Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder.
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Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
72
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:29:09 -
[12] - Quote
That's an awsome idea to force fleet members involvment ! Thank god the people which gave you early feedback called the right points.
Yes to no fleet-warps for some destination, but not without broadcast capacity. Each and every point are still warp-to, FCs just gonna have to call ranges, time, and estimate what warps when, how etc. Not only members are more involed but that's more job to do for FC strategicly speaking.
I think that's a good idea. Next anchor ?
Same question about what does mean :
Quote:Along with all existing broadcastable items |
Quesa
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
73
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:30:19 -
[13] - Quote
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) making everyone fly them.
Stop bubbles (aka defensive bubbles) are those which are placed to pull a hostile fleet off of it's intended warp-to target. So you drop bubbles between a hostile fleet and your own fleet so they cannot land on top of you. He is not describing a hostile fleet bubbling another. |
Winter Archipelago
Furtherance.
397
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:30:45 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Along with all existing broadcastable items Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by this? Does this mean that, if we broadcast a location (such as a scanned target), the fleet can warp via the broadcast? Or will this be limited to the aforementioned locations that were already warpable?
Or am I missing the mark entirely?
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Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:32:51 -
[15] - Quote
Quesa wrote:Mostlyharmlesss wrote:Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) making everyone fly them. Stop bubbles (aka defensive bubbles) are those which are placed to pull a hostile fleet off of it's intended warp-to target. So you drop bubbles between a hostile fleet and your own fleet so they cannot land on top of you. He is not describing a hostile fleet bubbling another.
And that is the problem. Slippery petes are bubble immune so they can dictate the entire fight unless you land right on top of them which is now made harder.
Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!
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Steven Ellecone
Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:33:12 -
[16] - Quote
I really hope this isn't the "solution" to wormholes. Not being able to fleet warp to a wormhole is a really big deal. If your whole fleet is landing at different times it's giving a huge advantage to the side that's already established on the hole. They'll easily be able to pop a few people before logi can start getting reps up. Please do not make this change without allowing wormholers to be able to fleet warp to a wormhole or you're going to really discourage wormhole pvp. I can see a lot of groups deciding to just sit in their POS rather than fight if they know they are going to lose a few ships at the beginning of a fight. That's enough to easily turn the tide on most 5-15 person fights. One side is going to establish control on a hole and the other side will be unwilling to fight unless they have superior numbers and firepower since they will be at a huge disadvantage without fleet warp. |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
180
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:33:39 -
[17] - Quote
"Bookmarks (newly created bookmarks will have a delay before being broadcastable)"
How much of a delay will it be? |
Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:35:57 -
[18] - Quote
Quote: The most common long range (defined as +150km) fleets seen in recent times are GÇ£Slippery PetesGÇ¥. These are specialized Tengus that are fit with lots of ECCM, making them difficult to probe down. The combination of on-grid combat probing and fleet-warps have choked out most other long-range doctrines.
We expect these changes to give long-range fleets time to deploy countermeasures, such as stop-bubbles
Do you guys even play this game? |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
98
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:37:52 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Larrikin, thank you for taking the feedback and modifying your proposal. I believe this set will get you much closer to promoting the individual involvement you seek to promote.
knobber Jobbler wrote:You could just solve the bombing problem by making them decloak each other again under 2k and put the actual skill back in being a bomber FC and pilot. It would remedy so many of the issues you're trying to solve. Yeah? That's more about luck than any skill, since you can't navigate around what you can't see. With the current changes, the first bomber to decloak will give away the position on the others, so will require superb coordination. Which is great. And infinitely better than your silly ideas.
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:Uh what. I don't understand what you mean with stopping bubbles and slippery petes - They're bubble immune. This change will make them harder to catch(?) and thus making everyone fly them. The only counter to slippery petes are combat probing and landing right ontop of them with scrams. Y'know, the very thing you just made harder. He meant other sniper doctrines - BS- and BC-based ones - which will be able to deploy those defensive measures. |
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
428
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:43:11 -
[20] - Quote
Seems much more agreeable to me than the earlier rendition, +1 |
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Max Singularity
House Singularity
183
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:44:20 -
[21] - Quote
Blessings to those Devs that listen and hear the people!
Harbinger of Faith his Holiness Maximilian Singularity of the Sixth Empire, Pope of New Eden
-First of his name-
((My doctors try to tell me Eve is not real... pffft... I've seen the YouTube Video. Eve is Real))
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Minchurra
Perkone
22
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:44:23 -
[22] - Quote
I have some Qs if you would be kind enough to answer:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to) 2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to) 3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?
Q2 is very important to me because the only thing I really use fleet warps for anymore is to panic warp my fleet to a safe spot when they start to die. |
Porcelina
Evil Young Flesh
2
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:45:24 -
[23] - Quote
So you plan to reduce the effectiveness of bomber fleets by breaking ALL other types of fleets. Great logic you have there. Squad warping you and your friends to a safe bookmark is one of the primary benefits of being in a fleet. This will make life a lot harder for nullsec and lowsec dwellers across the board.
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Jade Gondar
Human Sacrifice for Dummies
0
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:46:34 -
[24] - Quote
This hurts those the least that fly same sized fleets, and those the most, that require coordinated mixed sized fleet drops.
In other words, it does next to nothing to nullsec bombing runs and makes every mixed fleet synchronized PvP drop next to impossible. That's especially the case in wormhole space, where the second is usually the case.
If we want to engage as a whole, we need the means to do it. Not the means to suicide one by one into a present force.
The way it is, this also hurts smaller numbers the most, as the single ship has more significance and encourages "fly this ship doctrine and follow FC command" tatctics. That's the opposite of what you want, isn't it? |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
99
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:46:51 -
[25] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Quote: The most common long range (defined as +150km) fleets seen in recent times are GÇ£Slippery PetesGÇ¥. These are specialized Tengus that are fit with lots of ECCM, making them difficult to probe down. The combination of on-grid combat probing and fleet-warps have choked out most other long-range doctrines.
We expect these changes to give long-range fleets time to deploy countermeasures, such as stop-bubbles Do you guys even play this game?
It's often helpful to follow up such snide remarks with the reasoning behind your incredulity. Otherwise, you're just making me scroll more. |
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
72
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:51:03 -
[26] - Quote
Minchurra wrote:I have some Qs if you would be kind enough to answer:
1. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a fleet member as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click watch list > Warp fleet to) 2. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark I made a couple years ago as I can now, or does it require extra steps? (Right click in space > Warp fleet to) 3. Can I fleet warp my fleet to a personal bookmark, or one belonging to somebody else once it has been broadcast?
Q2 is very important to me because the only thing I really use fleet warps for anymore is to panic warp my fleet to a safe spot when they start to die. 1. Yes, no extra steps as i understood. 2. No, but you will be able to broadcast it so that any member of your fleet can warp to it. 3. I don't, but i suppose same as 2. by principle.
Porcelina wrote: So you plan to reduce the effectiveness of bomber fleets by breaking ALL other types of fleets. Great logic you have there. Squad warping you and your friends to a safe bookmark is one of the primary benefits of being in a fleet. This will make life a lot harder for nullsec and lowsec dwellers across the board.
Oh yeah, that's Soooooo much harder to broadcast a bookmark wether than fleet warp your fleet directly to it. Really difficult job !
/cheer to bomber lfeet ! |
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
47
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:52:57 -
[27] - Quote
First off, I apologize for being late to the party as it were; I was on a field problem where access to electricity made it a good day so replying to the first thread was not an option. That being said, better late than never.
Overall I'm in favor of the changes. The power creep of fleetwarp from all the other changes that impacted it (probing improvements, warp speed changes, etc) meant that it had gotten a bit out of hand. However I'm concerned that the loss of tactical mobility on grid will have an overall negative impact on fleet combat. Since fleets are always moving this matters quite a lot.
Right now a slower fleet only has one way to re-position relative to a faster one, and that is combat probes. Even as things stand a fast cruiser doctrine can move 12+ km from the point that the slower fleet lands, though this is not enough to keep interceptors from sticking to them like hair on a gorilla. With the new changes that distance would about double, if some testing I just did is correct.
On the surface this wouldn't look like a big issue since a 2km/s cruiser fleets is still hosed in a race with a 5km/s interceptor fleet. The problem is the time it takes for the inties to close that distance, and the further 12+ km that the cruisers will move while it happens. So long as the cruisers can track and hit an MWDing interceptor it gives them quite a bit of time to shoot at the tackle while it tries to catch up. With their larger sig radius and slightly lower speed this is a particular problem for interdictors, assuming that their opponents aren't nullified T3s that don't have to care. As well, it gives the cruiser fleet that much more time to warp out after they see combat probes on D-Scan.
After these changes go into effect there will not be a viable way to put tackle on a fast moving cruiser fleet (except a comedy Succubus fleet?). Probing will simply be too slow to catch a fleet that can go much over (roughly) 1.8km/s and load Javelin M or RLMLs. Trying to use interceptors and frigates to close will just result in massive casualties on the part of the tacklers. Sure the pursuer could just bring a TON of frigates and eat the losses but why would they? Instead, given the overall very high SP and wealth of the average nullsec alliance, everyone is going to fly some variant of the 250mm rail/MWD Tengu. You are right that it won't be a Slippery Pete though; there won't be any need for all the ECCM because being probed out will be irrelevant.
All of this goes back to the fact that it is very hard to achieve any sort of tactical surprise in Eve. Hotdrops and combat probing were pretty much the only ways to do it that everyone couldn't see coming far in advance. Now its going to be just hotdrops, and those are really not all that feasible in most situations. With as much reaction time as a FC will be able to count on having after this any ship type not able to hit out to 160km will be a ticket to frustration.
To fix this problem I suggest a second change to go along with the fleetwarp nerf. Make Covops able to run a prop mod while cloaked, but make their decloak radius expand by the same percentage (or even more) as their speed is boosted. This would enable FCs to use scouts to get ahead of fleets that didn't change direction occasionally, make wrecks and debris on the battlefield meaningful, and generally make somebody who really understood how to fly their ship in space worth their weight in gold. Instead of "align to thing ---> call targets ---> see hostiles coming, laugh, punch warp" FCs would have to be constantly asking themselves "is anyone sneaking up on me right now?" |
Random Interrupt
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
16
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:54:04 -
[28] - Quote
I run a wh corp that takes in lower SP characters that most wh corps would even dare look at. This disproportionately hurts
1. WH players 2. New players 3. Anyone who doesn't want to pay for multiple accounts
This change will make the new player experience and the experience of my corpmates objectively worse. If that was the intent, it will likely be successful. |
Mark Yanning
Zeura Brotherhood Mordus Angels
35
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:54:39 -
[29] - Quote
Guys, I don't wanna be pessimistic but it seems you are changing stuff just to change stuff, rather then adds anything interesting.
I don't see anything good in the new warp change: especially in small gang fleets, will be just very annoying. You want to encourage individual player partecipation, but you will obtain opposite effect: "new fleet warp will discourage individual player participation. And discurage fleets in general, because it will be quite annoying to Fc and to new pilots".
First the new (bad) icons, now this stupid warp change. From my point of view, you are working very hard to kill Eve. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
241
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:55:08 -
[30] - Quote
A massive +1 for this one !
Finally a little good news amongst all the depressing stuff. If we can get something now to fix the problems with the Ishtar which won't impinge on sentry drone use on all the other ships that would be great.
" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. "-áRick.
" Find out what ? "-áAbraham.
" They're screwing with the wrong people. "-áRick.
Season four.-á-á ' The Walking Dead. ' .
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