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Sarrgon
Freakingz
15
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Posted - 2015.06.26 03:26:41 -
[1] - Quote
Been curious as of late and seen that missiles are getting some much needed upgrades. But why is missile reload time 10 secs while like hybrids are 5 secs? To me to help make them more viable they need a boost to velocity and reload time to 5 secs. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2314
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Posted - 2015.06.26 03:45:48 -
[2] - Quote
Once upon a time, all reloads except lasers were 10 seconds. (This time was called late 2011, before Crucible, for the record.) Hybrid turrets were in a bad place, generally either lowest in damage AND alpha (rails) or even shorter range than they are now -- and with less than current damage (blasters). As part of the balancing pass to change that, hybrid turrets were given a 5 second reload time.
No other system was considered at the time, and with somewhat good reason. Missiles were still very strong, particularly HML Drakes (which didn't see their teeth kicked in for another year), lasers were still good, and projectiles were literally the reason hybrids were broken (they too later saw a brutal indirect direct nerf in the form of TE bonus reduction).
At this point, it might be reasonable to begin to reevaluate that choice. However, hybrids and lasers still have one thing in common that sets them apart from projectiles and missiles: fixed damage types. Giving selectable damage type weapons -- and in particular missiles, which are pure damage type -- a faster reload time is absolutely more powerful than giving the same bonus to hybrids. It's probably a bit too much; I think we're in a wait-and-see loop at least until missile application modules make whatever splash they're going to make. If missiles in general are still weak, we might see a reduced reload time -- or, as is commonly proposed, a skill to reduce reload time. |
Sarrgon
Freakingz
15
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Posted - 2015.06.26 04:03:29 -
[3] - Quote
Well one thing hybrids will always have over missiles, velocity, say at 100km, by the time cruise missiles would hit a hybrid firing BS or such, several volleys of hybrids would hit the missile boat. Then add in the reload time, odds are the missile boat would be in a bad place. Missile boats may rule PVE, but are mainly a joke in PVP.
Now the upcoming changes I read today on missiles will help some, but velocity and reload time will still hamper it big time. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3743
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Posted - 2015.06.26 04:53:07 -
[4] - Quote
Strange that CCP nerfed projectiles by nerfing TEs, now they're unnerfing missiles by giving them TEs. It's a roundabout way of not having to admit they were wrong, I guess.
Oh god.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2314
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Posted - 2015.06.26 05:18:32 -
[5] - Quote
Sarrgon wrote: Well one thing hybrids will always have over missiles, velocity, say at 100km, by the time cruise missiles would hit a hybrid firing BS or such, several volleys of hybrids would hit the missile boat. Then add in the reload time, odds are the missile boat would be in a bad place. Missile boats may rule PVE, but are mainly a joke in PVP.
Now the upcoming changes I read today on missiles will help some, but velocity and reload time will still hamper it big time.
Ok, sure, if you're defining PvP as fleet-range only, missiles are somewhat lacking. But the problem you're highlighting wouldn't be solved by changing reload times. Projectiles have the same reload and get some use.
As is, missiles are fine for brawling or even kiting. Fleet ranges are a problem, but the real issue there seems to be firewalls more than delivery times.
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
418
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Posted - 2015.06.26 06:45:11 -
[6] - Quote
Sarrgon wrote: Well one thing hybrids will always have over missiles, velocity, say at 100km, by the time cruise missiles would hit a hybrid firing BS or such, several volleys of hybrids would hit the missile boat. At the end of the respective clips however the Missile boat would still be dealing damage during the reload* while the hybrid boat, because its damage is instant, loses its damage instantly... With a 40 round clip and ten second rate of fire (for example) a ten second reload on missiles has less effect on the damage profile than the five second reload does on an 80 round clip with a four second rate of fire.*
* Presuming the last volley bug doesn't come into play...
** It's been a long while since I really looked but IIRC the numbers are reasonably representative of 425mm rails vs Cruise. |
Amanda Chan
Error 404 Pod Not Found
23
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Posted - 2015.06.26 09:41:30 -
[7] - Quote
Don't forget the elephant of wasted dps in the room. If you have say 40 missiles on the way and the target dies to 20. That's 20 wasted missiles. Not sure how process intensive it would be for them to turn into fof missiles at that point or target the next valid target at that point. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
474
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Posted - 2015.06.28 03:37:18 -
[8] - Quote
Amanda Chan wrote:Don't forget the elephant of wasted dps in the room. If you have say 40 missiles on the way and the target dies to 20. That's 20 wasted missiles. Not sure how process intensive it would be for them to turn into fof missiles at that point or target the next valid target at that point.
It's been suggested before and sidelined under the notion that it would be a trick that missiles in Eve just wouldn't be able to do unless current missile mechanics were scrapped and redone from the ground up.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1079
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Posted - 2015.06.28 04:27:35 -
[9] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Strange that CCP nerfed projectiles by nerfing TEs, now they're unnerfing missiles by giving them TEs. It's a roundabout way of not having to admit they were wrong, I guess.
"Unnerfing" is a really key word here. I really wish they would just unnerf them a little. Give back a little range, or a little DPS. Introducing a Missile Module, just feels like a potential nerf to the missile ship itself, because it turns into a slot trade off. I mean, You can put a cast on a runners broken leg, but he still won't win any races...
Reload time: I don't think it will change the outcome of many fights, but I'd still be all for it. Last shot fired has a cycle time + reload time + flight time before next impact. It feels like an eternity sometimes. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3747
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Posted - 2015.06.28 05:36:51 -
[10] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:because it turns into a slot trade off. So Minmatar is the missile race now. Well at least they can stop complaining about projectiles.
Oh god.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
706
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Posted - 2015.06.29 23:32:41 -
[11] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Amanda Chan wrote:Don't forget the elephant of wasted dps in the room. If you have say 40 missiles on the way and the target dies to 20. That's 20 wasted missiles. Not sure how process intensive it would be for them to turn into fof missiles at that point or target the next valid target at that point. It's been suggested before and sidelined under the notion that it would be a trick that missiles in Eve just wouldn't be able to do unless current missile mechanics were scrapped and redone from the ground up.
That would be soo cool. Well, a girl can dream, no?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Marech Bhayanaka
The Night Crew The Night Crew Alliance
28
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Posted - 2015.06.30 02:11:42 -
[12] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Amanda Chan wrote:Don't forget the elephant of wasted dps in the room. If you have say 40 missiles on the way and the target dies to 20. That's 20 wasted missiles. Not sure how process intensive it would be for them to turn into fof missiles at that point or target the next valid target at that point. It's been suggested before and sidelined under the notion that it would be a trick that missiles in Eve just wouldn't be able to do unless current missile mechanics were scrapped and redone from the ground up.
I like it as it is. Different weapon systems should have different strengths and weaknesses, and ideally different mechanics. I'd hate to seem them all become different names for essentially the same thing. The more different they were, the more interesting the game is.
Marech. |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus Odin's Call
899
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Posted - 2015.06.30 10:48:48 -
[13] - Quote
Its pretty simple in my eyes... Missiles have selectable damage types so can be configured to use the best missile for a target (therefore potentially increasing dps).
Changing the reload time on launchers would make this more pronounced and would likly cause problems.
No Worries
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1129
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Posted - 2015.06.30 11:49:52 -
[14] - Quote
I'm not seeing the problem at all. From the pvp standpoint - short range brawling - put a scram-web-painter on the primary and missiles are pretty awesome. From the pvp standpoint - long range fleet crap - because of flight time they will never be good at this role - short of a stupid 'let's ignore obvious physics' change to missiles they can't be good at long range fleet stuff (if this is something you think eve needs - let it go now).
From the pve standpoint - who cares - really. If you're a min max guy that needs perfecect isk/second well, missile flight time is again your enemy and barring ignoring reality it can't be helped.
On the subject of wasted missiles. Let it go. It's how they work. Either you get good at missiles and quit firing when you should to not 'lose' missiles or you live with it. Look at projectiles - no one is crying about the 'wasted damage' of grouped turrets 4,5&6 that weren't needed to pop a target - I see no difference for missiles.
Come on guys - you know how they work. You push a button, the missiles leave their launchers, fly to the target and explode. That's it.
As far as modules for faster reload - as you reduce the reload time I would say the chance of a launcher getting jammed and needing a repair should go up. It's not like guns where you swap a clip - you're jamming a relatively fragile missile into a launch tube - that takes time.
If you consider realism (which doesn't seem to be a thing in this thread) then loading missiles should take super long compared to other ammunition. If you compare RL weapons delivery systems then missile ROF and reload times are crazy fast in eve already. I'm not that big on comparing RL to eve, but you guys started it.
TL/DR missiles gonna do what missiles gotta do. |
Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
48
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Posted - 2015.06.30 12:46:34 -
[15] - Quote
Sarrgon wrote: Been curious as of late and seen that missiles are getting some much needed upgrades. But why is missile reload time 10 secs while like hybrids are 5 secs? To me to help make them more viable they need a boost to velocity and reload time to 5 secs.
because missiles arent hybrids? because 5 sec reload time is unique for hybrids as part of their buff a time ago.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1129
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Posted - 2015.06.30 15:14:46 -
[16] - Quote
Amanda Chan wrote:Don't forget the elephant of wasted dps in the room. If you have say 40 missiles on the way and the target dies to 20. That's 20 wasted missiles. Not sure how process intensive it would be for them to turn into fof missiles at that point or target the next valid target at that point.
As it is, missiles always hit (given they have enough fuel and velocity). Now you want them to always hit extra stuff after their initial target is destroyed?
It's not a wasted dps elephant - it's a wasted dps wishlist. Are you implying that a missile can tell the difference between a megathron and a 10 second ago blown up megathron? You should just be happy the extra volley doesn't blow up the molten smoking space wreck created by the prvious volley. Your 20 'wasted' missiles are already doing you an incredible favor buy allowing you to loot the wreck that was just created.
Hey, I remember you now. You're the dude that walked into the bank the other day, put the gold brick on the counter and asked if they would make it lighter. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
308
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Posted - 2015.06.30 16:48:34 -
[17] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:RavenPaine wrote:because it turns into a slot trade off. So Minmatar is the missile race now. Well at least they can stop complaining about projectiles. I really cant see why. The missile tes are coming prenerfed and are nothing to write home about. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
346
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Posted - 2015.07.01 01:34:06 -
[18] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:short of a stupid 'let's ignore obvious physics' change to missiles they can't be good at long range fleet stuff (if this is something you think eve needs - let it go now). In the near vacuum of space anything that has a motor of any kind that is burning will continue to accelerate as long as it has fuel to burn. So the current game mechanic that gives rockets, missiles and torpedoes a maximum velocity is the thing that ignores the realities of physics.
Another part of real physics that the current missiles mechanic ignores is explosion velocity. Take the T2 Precision cruise as an example the base explosion velocity is 83 meters per second. An average plastic explosive in the real world has explosion velocities of over 8,000 meters per second and some are well over 10,000 meters per second.
All this is to say that with so many things in EvE that go against the laws of physics why does physics matter here?
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1135
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Posted - 2015.07.01 20:28:38 -
[19] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:short of a stupid 'let's ignore obvious physics' change to missiles they can't be good at long range fleet stuff (if this is something you think eve needs - let it go now). In the near vacuum of space anything that has a motor of any kind that is burning will continue to accelerate as long as it has fuel to burn. So the current game mechanic that gives rockets, missiles and torpedoes a maximum velocity is the thing that ignores the realities of physics. Another part of real physics that the current missiles mechanic ignores is explosion velocity. Take the T2 Precision cruise as an example the base explosion velocity is 83 meters per second. An average plastic explosive in the real world has explosion velocities of over 8,000 meters per second and some are well over 10,000 meters per second. All this is to say that with so many things in EvE that go against the laws of physics why does physics matter here?
Your continuous acceleration ignores just how slow that accelleration is as the mighty missile rockets push against the near vacuum of space.
We can nit pick physics back and forth all day as we warp across systems. They are all silly arguments. We could go back and forth on it forever.
My basic argurment stands. Missiles are fine as is. Let them alone. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
419
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Posted - 2015.07.02 17:11:01 -
[20] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Your continuous acceleration ignores just how slow that accelleration is as the mighty missile rockets push against the near vacuum of space. While the original "oh but physics" arguement is so oversimplified as to be falacious I do feel the need to highlight this one...
No matter where the motor is (underwater, in atmosphere or in a near-perfect vacuum) it doesn't "push against" anything. The motor's thrust is the result of gasses being accelerated backwards - that acceleration generates a reaction force in the opposite direction which is what drives the rocket, motor test rig...etc forwards. |
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