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Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
136
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Posted - 2015.06.26 12:22:43 -
[1] - Quote
Note: I couldn't find a thread that wasn't locked to post this in. If ISD decides to lock this thread for redundancy, I would appreciate being provided with a link to the appropriate thread for this idea.
I was listening to the Neocom podcast Tinfoil Factory episode on Attributes and got to wondering why attributes couldn't be removed altogether and replaced by personal indices, similar to sov system indices. A character's indices' levels would be influenced by specific activities in-game; the indices' levels would affect the speed at which related skills trained. Station spinning over a long period of time would cause indices and therefore related skills' training speed to drop, whereas for example engaging in PVP or marketing trade would cause related indices to go up and thus related skills to train faster. It sort of simulates "learning more by doing more".
This idea is totally off the top of my head and might be incredibly stupid and I can think of some reasons others would think so. For example: it would require actually doing stuff in game to maximize training speed (which might be mitigated somewhat by implants of some kind), it would make those training alts on the side unhappy (again, implants could mitigate that), it might be difficult to map skills to a reasonably limited set of indices with clarity, or it might be ridiculously complex to implement well, to name a few.
But at first glance the idea does seem to suggest some interesting possibilities for driving activity in-game and relating that directly to skill training speed.
What do you think, fellow capsuleers?
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1461
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Posted - 2015.06.26 12:27:06 -
[2] - Quote
What happens when I have my main shoot an alt (and vice versa) with a small laser and a passive shield tank? Or when they just set up an RR chain and I pop to work? |
Anthar Thebess
1166
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Posted - 2015.06.26 12:29:12 -
[3] - Quote
But i want to train my alts, not play the game? What about all those people playing EVE : Skill Queue Offline? They just buy plex off market and skill characters.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Mag's
the united
19691
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Posted - 2015.06.26 13:10:31 -
[4] - Quote
I will always say no, to grind based SP acquirement. It was in the game early on and it was removed and for good reason.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Protovarious
Team Saturn
38
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Posted - 2015.06.26 14:02:39 -
[5] - Quote
I propose that this may be a mechanic added to the current system. Not personal indices alone.
By that, you can still train at current levels but personal indices would give a boost based on activity.
Yes this means alts just sitting in queues won't get the bonus that an active toon has.
And no, someone getting something that you're not getting isn't a penalty to you, but a boost for them. Just like not having an increase in your budget isn't a cut.
For example:
Industry character (A) spends (x) amount of time mining while training mining related skills, that character would receive (x * 1.2) bonus time of accelerated training much like "rested xp".
This promotes activity as well as attribute and skill awareness.
By no means is that the final version, but I believe it's an excellent idea to build from. Saying no for the sake of saying no won't cut it. Come up with alternatives, changes, and other ideas. THAT'S what the Tinfoil Factory is about!
Co-host of The Neocom Podcast - http://www.TheNeocom.com
Eve Community Blogger -
The Eve Editorial - http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com
Twitter: @Proto_Eve
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Protovarious
Team Saturn
38
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Posted - 2015.06.26 14:09:25 -
[6] - Quote
afkalt wrote:What happens when I have my main shoot an alt (and vice versa) with a small laser and a passive shield tank? Or when they just set up an RR chain and I pop to work?
Hope you don't get killed?
LOL
Co-host of The Neocom Podcast - http://www.TheNeocom.com
Eve Community Blogger -
The Eve Editorial - http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com
Twitter: @Proto_Eve
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
861
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Posted - 2015.06.26 14:11:18 -
[7] - Quote
Why would you want to replace a reasonably fair and equitable system with one that was not only gameable but increased the overall amount of grinding players had to do just to stay competitive?
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
338
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Posted - 2015.06.26 14:25:17 -
[8] - Quote
-1 Just say no. Bad idea is bad idea.
One of the very best things about EvE is that ALL players regardless of activity level can acquire SP at the same rate provided they are willing to invest in the implants and proper remaps. Play 5 hours a week or 5 hours per day makes no difference and that is how it should be and that is one of the things that attracts many of us to EvE.
If you do not like the attribute / implant / real time based skills system in EvE then go somewhere else and spend your gaming time. If you want to spend your gaming time in EvE then stop trying to make it like all of those other games out there.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1267
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Posted - 2015.06.26 14:45:11 -
[9] - Quote
Current system may not be perfect in many peoples eyes, but it is a best compromise and is fair in that everyone can achieve the same SP accrual rates with the same investment.
-1 |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3513
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Posted - 2015.06.26 14:46:05 -
[10] - Quote
Protovarious wrote:afkalt wrote:What happens when I have my main shoot an alt (and vice versa) with a small laser and a passive shield tank? Or when they just set up an RR chain and I pop to work? Hope you don't get killed? LOL
Hint: you won't. |
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Protovarious
Team Saturn
38
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Posted - 2015.06.26 16:05:04 -
[11] - Quote
I love the reactions to this. Can't wait to spotlight them next episode :)
Co-host of The Neocom Podcast - http://www.TheNeocom.com
Eve Community Blogger -
The Eve Editorial - http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com
Twitter: @Proto_Eve
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Protovarious
Team Saturn
38
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Posted - 2015.06.26 16:13:16 -
[12] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Protovarious wrote:afkalt wrote:What happens when I have my main shoot an alt (and vice versa) with a small laser and a passive shield tank? Or when they just set up an RR chain and I pop to work? Hope you don't get killed? LOL Hint: you won't.
Make sure to have your CODE permit ;)
Oh that's right...Goonswarm. I take it back!
Co-host of The Neocom Podcast - http://www.TheNeocom.com
Eve Community Blogger -
The Eve Editorial - http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com
Twitter: @Proto_Eve
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
22104
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Posted - 2015.06.26 16:30:13 -
[13] - Quote
Grinding belongs in Machine Shops and Nightclubs, not Eve.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
137
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Posted - 2015.06.26 16:30:35 -
[14] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:-1 Just say no. Bad idea is bad idea.
One of the very best things about EvE is that ALL players regardless of activity level can acquire SP at the same rate provided they are willing to invest in the implants and proper remaps. Play 5 hours a week or 5 hours per day makes no difference and that is how it should be and that is one of the things that attracts many of us to EvE.
If you do not like the attribute / implant / real time based skills system in EvE then go somewhere else and spend your gaming time. If you want to spend your gaming time in EvE then stop trying to make it like all of those other games out there.
I will agree this idea might favor those who can play more but that would depend on how it was implemented. I have nothing against the current system but then again, I've never been a min-maxer as regards skill training. In fact, I often forget to keep a skill training. But that doesn't mean it's not interesting to what-if ideas. Doing so doesn't mean I'm trying to make EVE like all other games (I don't even play any other MMOs and never have; EVE is it for me). All it means is that I think it's fun to think about and kick around possibilities.
@Protovarious: I'm interested to see where the discussion goes on the podcast. It's a much better venue for brainstorming.
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
6
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Posted - 2015.06.26 16:33:19 -
[15] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I will always say no, to grind based SP acquirement. It was in the game early on, it was removed and for good reason.
Could you please reiterate this reason. Most people where not around at that time. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1944
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Posted - 2015.06.26 16:41:04 -
[16] - Quote
Protovarious wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Protovarious wrote:afkalt wrote:What happens when I have my main shoot an alt (and vice versa) with a small laser and a passive shield tank? Or when they just set up an RR chain and I pop to work? Hope you don't get killed? LOL Hint: you won't. Make sure to have your CODE permit ;) Oh that's right...Goonswarm. I take it back!
You expect CODE. to probe scan every damn systems in case some dude is shooting his alt while afk? |
Protovarious
Team Saturn
38
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Posted - 2015.06.26 17:19:27 -
[17] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Protovarious wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Protovarious wrote:afkalt wrote:What happens when I have my main shoot an alt (and vice versa) with a small laser and a passive shield tank? Or when they just set up an RR chain and I pop to work? Hope you don't get killed? LOL Hint: you won't. Make sure to have your CODE permit ;) Oh that's right...Goonswarm. I take it back! You expect CODE. to probe scan every damn systems in case some dude is shooting his alt while afk?
You expect CODE. not to pass up free afk kills? Ask them.
Anyway, that's not the crux of the current subject.
Co-host of The Neocom Podcast - http://www.TheNeocom.com
Eve Community Blogger -
The Eve Editorial - http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com
Twitter: @Proto_Eve
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Protovarious
Team Saturn
38
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Posted - 2015.06.26 17:22:19 -
[18] - Quote
Mynxee wrote:Donnachadh wrote:-1 Just say no. Bad idea is bad idea.
One of the very best things about EvE is that ALL players regardless of activity level can acquire SP at the same rate provided they are willing to invest in the implants and proper remaps. Play 5 hours a week or 5 hours per day makes no difference and that is how it should be and that is one of the things that attracts many of us to EvE.
If you do not like the attribute / implant / real time based skills system in EvE then go somewhere else and spend your gaming time. If you want to spend your gaming time in EvE then stop trying to make it like all of those other games out there.
I will agree this idea might favor those who can play more but that would depend on how it was implemented. I have nothing against the current system but then again, I've never been a min-maxer as regards skill training. In fact, I often forget to keep a skill training. But that doesn't mean it's not interesting to what-if ideas. Doing so doesn't mean I'm trying to make EVE like all other games (I don't even play any other MMOs and never have; EVE is it for me). All it means is that I think it's fun to think about and kick around possibilities.
@Protovarious: I'm interested to see where the discussion goes on the podcast. It's a much better venue for brainstorming.
I as well but TFF isn't the courtroom. We'll follow up for the first 5 minutes then on to the next subject. If it gets people sharing ideas then op success. :)
Co-host of The Neocom Podcast - http://www.TheNeocom.com
Eve Community Blogger -
The Eve Editorial - http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com
Twitter: @Proto_Eve
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Mag's
the united
19699
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 18:47:32 -
[19] - Quote
Lim Hiaret wrote:Mag's wrote:I will always say no, to grind based SP acquirement. It was in the game early on, it was removed and for good reason. Could you please reiterate this reason. Most people where not around at that time. It was abused, just as afkalt suggested in this thread.
Although this is a bonus, many will feel compelled to use the mechanic and therefore find way to do so AFK. Just as they did in the early days.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Wynta
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.06.26 20:48:31 -
[20] - Quote
I think they should replace learn implants with this... Convert Pirate implants to just the bonus without the attributes. Doing things related to each of the skills will increase them up to a maximum of 5. Ratting/PvP increased Will/Per. Industry, Mining, Explo increases Int/mem, Trade/Fleet Management increases Charisma.
Or just doing any of the above increases all stats by x. |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1946
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 20:53:34 -
[21] - Quote
Wynta wrote:I think they should replace learn implants with this... Convert Pirate implants to just the bonus without the attributes. Doing things related to each of the skills will increase them up to a maximum of 5. Ratting/PvP increased Will/Per. Industry, Mining, Explo increases Int/mem, Trade/Fleet Management increases Charisma.
Or just doing any of the above increases all stats by x.
Doing any of it will increase all stats by 0 so it's balanced and does not add any grind to the game. |
James Baboli
Novablasters
924
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Posted - 2015.06.26 22:01:24 -
[22] - Quote
I know. You can gain a single point to any attribute by removing a point from any other attribute. If only that system existed in the game!
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2858
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Posted - 2015.06.26 22:45:31 -
[23] - Quote
An interesting idea but the ability to afk build indices is a worry. Unless that can be addressed then it has too many loopholes for me to support.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1169
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Posted - 2015.06.27 02:23:07 -
[24] - Quote
Absolutely not supported. Grinding for SP has no place in Eve and never should.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1537
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Posted - 2015.06.27 09:09:40 -
[25] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Wynta wrote:I think they should replace learn implants with this... Convert Pirate implants to just the bonus without the attributes. Doing things related to each of the skills will increase them up to a maximum of 5. Ratting/PvP increased Will/Per. Industry, Mining, Explo increases Int/mem, Trade/Fleet Management increases Charisma.
Or just doing any of the above increases all stats by x. Doing any of it will increase all stats by 0 so it's balanced and does not add any grind to the game. So, I am currently ratting, pvping, trading and exploring every day. Am I going to be punished now?
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1274
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 09:35:36 -
[26] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: Am I going to be punished now?
Only if you've been a very naughty boy... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1274
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 09:40:17 -
[27] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:An interesting idea but the ability to afk build indices is a worry. Unless that can be addressed then it has too many loopholes for me to support.
m
The problem I see is that this could most likely be botted easily to create perfect niche characters more rapidly for sale/use.
The current system can't be gamed as far as I know so is perfectly fair even if imperfect in other ways. |
Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
139
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Posted - 2015.06.27 13:43:02 -
[28] - Quote
Thanks to everyone for comments so far. You raise good points about the grind and potential for AFKing such a system. Reading through opinions expressed, it occurs to me how amazingly difficult it must be to get the balance right for "progression" mechanics such that they are reasonably fair for all players regardless of their play style or time available to play. That said, I have always favored things that reward activity and engagement with the game rather than ship spinning or simply playing skill queue on line -- which is part of what sparked the original idea in the first place.
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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James Baboli
Novablasters
926
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Posted - 2015.06.27 14:02:28 -
[29] - Quote
Mynxee wrote:Thanks to everyone for comments so far. You raise good points about the grind and potential for AFKing such a system. Reading through opinions expressed, it occurs to me how amazingly difficult it must be to get the balance right for "progression" mechanics such that they are reasonably fair for all players regardless of their play style or time available to play. That said, I have always favored things that reward activity and engagement with the game rather than ship spinning or simply playing skill queue on line -- which is part of what sparked the original idea in the first place.
EVE has it pretty darned good, with 4 kinds of progression that matter.
ISK/asset progression is almost entirely effort based within a niche, with a diminishing return on invested assets but a slightly better than linear progression based on invested SP.
SP progression is almost entirely linear. It scales medium quickly with invested assets but these have a diminishing return relative to cost. It also scales better over a long term plan, favoring the patient and prepared.
Player skill progression is erratic and sub-divided fairly fine, with study time and time doing rewarded as heavily as a player can manage to make out of them. This above all favors the quick witted and clever.
Social progression is even more erratic and strange, with various ways of achieving notice generating different responses for different effort and talent levels as well as different personality types. This is the bit where you get FCs and other management types getting far ahead of most line pilots.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
139
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Posted - 2015.06.27 14:22:23 -
[30] - Quote
Great summary and observation, James!
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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