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Jordon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.06.28 17:44:32 -
[1] - Quote
So after many trades I have picked myself up a CNI, was wondering if you guys had any fits for this boat that don't require implants. With the changes that came to HAM's I think this boat now has real potential. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1410
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Posted - 2015.06.28 18:33:13 -
[2] - Quote
it doesn't really make sense to use it for lvl 3 missions, the amount of tank you'll need for some of the mission would completely mess up the fit. |
Jordon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.06.28 18:35:49 -
[3] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:it doesn't really make sense to use it for lvl 3 missions, the amount of tank you'll need for some of the mission would completely mess up the fit.
You sure, the vanilla version I can see that but the Navy Variant should be able to hold it's own in Level 3 missions no? |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1125
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Posted - 2015.06.28 20:32:02 -
[4] - Quote
The Navy Caracal has one extra launcher, slightly more HP, and is slightly faster than the normal Caracal. The difference is very underwhelming. In PVP the Navy Caracal is overshadowed by the Scythe Fleet Issue which is much faster so you hardly ever seen them flown. For PVE, the resists are exactly the same as the normal Caracal, so you will be taking the same amount of damage and the small increase in buffer isn't going to do anything for you. Not to mention it has no range bonus so you'll have to get closer to apply your damage.
Basically...you can try it. But don't expect anything you couldn't get out of a normal Caracal.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1235
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Posted - 2015.06.28 22:01:10 -
[5] - Quote
I doubt it will have a tank issue, well unless you plan to get full aggro and sit still. the navy caracal doesn't seem to have a range bonus and that makes me feel like it will be underwhelming in pve, especially with something short range like HAMs
I would guess it works, but it looks boring and ineffective.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Jordon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.06.28 22:46:03 -
[6] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it will have a tank issue, well unless you plan to get full aggro and sit still. the navy caracal doesn't seem to have a range bonus and that makes me feel like it will be underwhelming in pve, especially with something short range like HAMs
I would guess it works, but it looks boring and ineffective.
What would you suggest as a alternative? |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1235
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Posted - 2015.06.29 03:10:05 -
[7] - Quote
well that mostly depends on skills.
Drake is the classic lv3 runner, and uses rather similar skills to the caracal. Has more launcher dps and a drone bay. typically fit with heavy missiles.
personally I don't really like missiles so I stay away with them. Not sure how well a Ferox works, but I would guess decently. My go to last time I did 3s was an ishtar, although that is a completely different skill set. if your skills are more advanced I'd be happy to list some other options. There are a number of ideas in these two threads: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=427956 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=421421&find=unread
@ChainsawPlankto
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Amanda Chan
Error 404 Pod Not Found
25
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Posted - 2015.06.29 05:50:53 -
[8] - Quote
I'm lazy so when I grind standing with corps and doing level 1-3 missions I used a Gila. It just cruises through them easy peasy. Shoot frigs with RLML and use your medium drones on everything else, I think I had around 700 dps from drones alone.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1412
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Posted - 2015.06.29 06:37:17 -
[9] - Quote
It's just lvl 3, you'll do a bunch of them and then you're ready for lvl 4. So get the most obvious option, Drake in you case, get them out of the way and move on. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1195
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Posted - 2015.06.29 19:05:58 -
[10] - Quote
caracal navy isn't so hot, big price tag for something that caracal already does fine with (since you don't need explosion radius bonus on rapid lights)
the only other way to take advantage of the bonus would be to use HAMs and that doesn't really make any sense on such a paper thin ship
Imo it needs to be reworked into a reduced reload time bonus but then I guess it will mean it will destroy frigates even harder than it already does. |
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Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
687
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Posted - 2015.06.29 21:55:30 -
[11] - Quote
I used to do level 3 missions in a normal caracal all the time, in a region where missiles were cheaper than hybrid ammo. Albeit, that was a while ago, but still, kinda wondering why everyone's so down on the poor ship.
L3 missions are in the Cruiser to BC difficulty range, you'll have to be more careful of your ranges and movement than in a Drake but you should be fine.
EDIT: I kind of agree that the Navy Issue isn't really worth the cost, though. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1418
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Posted - 2015.06.29 22:58:30 -
[12] - Quote
Lost Greybeard wrote:I used to do level 3 missions in a normal caracal all the time, in a region where missiles were cheaper than hybrid ammo. Albeit, that was a while ago, but still, kinda wondering why everyone's so down on the poor ship.
L3 missions are in the Cruiser to BC difficulty range, you'll have to be more careful of your ranges and movement than in a Drake but you should be fine.
EDIT: I kind of agree that the Navy Issue isn't really worth the cost, though.
Well, there's a few variables:
- the mission itself, some are super easy while others will kick you in the nads - the pilot, it all depends on how well skilled one is and how much is focussed on that ship fit - the player, some ppl are more knowledgeable on the game and/or are willing to put in more (brain) effort
So it's just safest to assume it'll all go south and state that you're just best off using a BC, Drake in this case. |
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
688
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Posted - 2015.06.30 01:21:50 -
[13] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:So it's just safest to assume it'll all go south and state that you're just best off using a BC, Drake in this case.
Yeah, but unless something goes catastrophically wrong more than ten times as often and blows up your ship with the cruiser than with the BC, you're still better off in terms of overall cost with the cruiser. Depending on the specific cost of the cruiser and BC hull + fit, obviously, but it being 5 mil versus 50 mil isn't unusual.
Since few things short of an actual disconnect are going to kill you either way... meh.
The other thing to think about with the Navy Ships is that generally they're considered worth suiciding for the lulz, where vanilla cruisers are not. Because someone killed in a Caracal is all "oh, that sucked. Time to boot up Caracal #713, then" and someone in a navy issue is more like "damn you to hell forever! I spent a week grinding the LP for that, you scurvy dog!" |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10547
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Posted - 2015.06.30 05:59:12 -
[14] - Quote
Jordon Wallace wrote:What would you suggest as a alternative? Pretty much passive drake territory. Or if you are really into hawks. I don't know about the Navy Caracal on lvl3's, I suppose with fair skill. I hardly took Caracal on a lvl3's. In fact I've only had one in my career here and gave it away, fitted, to someone who did a little hauling for me. II think I remember struggling with a Caracal on a lvl3 long ago early on, before I trained into drake. In retrospect, I should have just trained into hawk back then and skipped BC all together.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1418
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Posted - 2015.06.30 06:59:37 -
[15] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Pretty much passive drake territory.
No, PLEASE stop telling newbies to passive tank their Drake. It's an old, outdated, completely wrong meme that teaches newbies bad habits.
Yes it makes tanking really easy but it's very bad for applied dps. Missiles NEED rigor/flare rigs to actually apply any sort of decent damage (this is why ppl say heavies suck, but they don't realise it) which means you can't fit purger rigs, which in turn means you can't really passive tank, which thus means that you want to active tank it. And because of the resist bonus and the massive amount of mid slots you can get away with using a small shield booster just fine.
Full explanation is here.
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
4001
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Posted - 2015.06.30 07:02:42 -
[16] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Webvan wrote:Pretty much passive drake territory. No, PLEASE stop telling newbies to passive tank their Drake. It's an old, outdated, completely wrong meme that teaches newbies bad habits. Yes it makes tanking really easy but it's very bad for applied dps. Missiles NEED rigor/flare rigs to actually apply any sort of decent damage (this is why ppl say heavies suck, but they don't realise it) which means you can't fit purger rigs, which in turn means you can't really passive tank, which thus means that you want to active tank it. And because of the resist bonus and the massive amount of mid slots you can get away with using a small shield booster just fine. Full explanation is here. Can I bring my draek?
In all seriousness though, do look into basic Missile mechanics, it's quite a bit different from turret mechanics and knowing them is a huge help, whether it's PVE or PVP.
"I only lose ships when I fly with Azda." - Barry Cuttlefish
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10555
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Posted - 2015.06.30 12:26:56 -
[17] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Webvan wrote:Pretty much passive drake territory. No, PLEASE stop telling newbies to passive tank their Drake. It's an old, outdated, completely wrong meme that teaches newbies bad habits. Yes it makes tanking really easy but it's very bad for applied dps. Missiles NEED rigor/flare rigs to actually apply any sort of decent damage (this is why ppl say heavies suck, but they don't realise it) which means you can't fit purger rigs, which in turn means you can't really passive tank, which thus means that you want to active tank it. And because of the resist bonus and the massive amount of mid slots you can get away with using a small shield booster just fine. Full explanation is here. Old debate, years old. And when I was flying them regular, I had a passive and an active, doing lvl3's and some lvl4's. Wound up refitting the active to a passive. But nice little vid there, to bad hardly anyone has paid it any attention with it's low view count.
Oh and I don't complain about missiles, other than the delayed applied damage, but more of a fleet issue (e.g. incursions etc). Even so, a missile buff is coming up, so even less of an issue for those that believe it so. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1195
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Posted - 2015.06.30 12:33:17 -
[18] - Quote
Passive used to be better until the drake nerfs, right now the permarunning small booster does indeed make more sense now |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1422
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Posted - 2015.06.30 13:55:18 -
[19] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Old debate, years old. And when I was flying them regular, I had a passive and an active, doing lvl3's and some lvl4's. Wound up refitting the active to a passive. But nice little vid there, to bad hardly anyone has paid it any attention with it's low view count.
Oh and I don't complain about missiles, other than the delayed applied damage, but more of a fleet issue (e.g. incursions etc). Even so, a missile buff is coming up, so even less of an issue for those that believe it so.
"I got caught saying something silly and rather than acknowledge it I'll get passive aggressive trying to diminish the shown facts by lolling at some number, as if that somehow disqualifies said facts. Also I don't know how the missile changes will pan out (hint, you'll still be better off with rigor/flare for the simple reason that losing 2-3 mid slots hurts more than 2-3 rigs and there's more stacking issues with the modules) because I still don't know how stuff really works". |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1129
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Posted - 2015.06.30 16:15:23 -
[20] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Full explanation is here. Nice video. Not a PVE person so I'd never considered active Drake for missions.
I am curious about your choice of 2 rigors + 1 flare, vs. 3 rigors. I was under the impression that rigors are always better since they don't suffer from stacking penalties. If you look at the missile formula a Rigor I gives a multiplier of 1/0.85 = 1.176 whereas a Flare I is 1.15. Additionally the radius ratio can compensate for the speed ratio but not vice versa (because of the minimum in the formula). The only time I could see an advantage in using a Flare is if you are using tech 2 rigs and have run out of calibration for a third Rigor II (a Flare II is slightly more effective than a Rigor I).
I fiddled with rigs versus different target speeds in EFT for your fit and couldn't get better performance from a Flare than a third Rigor. Any insight or something I missed? To be fair, it is a very slight difference in performance (1-5 dps).
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1426
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:21:10 -
[21] - Quote
That's a bit of a habit of mine that seeped though, unfortunately. With T1 rigs you're right that 3 rigors tends to be better in most circumstances, if only a little bit. With T2 rigs that changes due to calibration cost where a 3rd T2 rigor is impossible and would have to be T1, and then the T2 Flare makes more sense. I'll actually make an annotation for that.
Done. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10558
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Posted - 2015.07.01 00:57:45 -
[22] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Webvan wrote:Old debate, years old. And when I was flying them regular, I had a passive and an active, doing lvl3's and some lvl4's. Wound up refitting the active to a passive. But nice little vid there, to bad hardly anyone has paid it any attention with it's low view count.
Oh and I don't complain about missiles, other than the delayed applied damage, but more of a fleet issue (e.g. incursions etc). Even so, a missile buff is coming up, so even less of an issue for those that believe it so. "I got caught saying something silly and rather than acknowledge it I'll get passive aggressive trying to diminish the shown facts by lolling at some number, as if that somehow disqualifies said facts. Also I don't know how the missile changes will pan out (hint, you'll still be better off with rigor/flare for the simple reason that losing 2-3 mid slots hurts more than 2-3 rigs and there's more stacking issues with the modules) because I still don't know how stuff really works". I didn't talk down to you, but you usually do that. It's 10% adjustment not counting the coming mod. You can do lvl3's with an active, but you will probably want lvl4's on passive... or some of the harder lvl3's. People can always just experiment and come to their own conclusions as I have done. Not speaking of theory and spreadsheets, it also depends on the bus drivers skill and play style.
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StormyMtn IV Glacier-Tor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.09.10 03:16:03 -
[23] - Quote
Some very good points - especially about the complexity of determining what rigs and fits for various mission profiles. It was enlightening because i would spend time comparing specific numbers on the missiles themselves. I just started using evemon and eft, but there seems to be a lot of equipment that is not in the database so i have only used it to get a better understanding of what impact a particular item has on the vessel stats. I have a couple of Navy Caracals that are doing very nicely on level II pve missions except for a mission I helped a Drake on, both of us kiting while aligned on Airkio VIII and we still had to warp out several times to recharge and repair armor. I had auto-targeting heavy missiles and he had heavy assault, we both ended up changing to heavy missile to get the job done. The rat pack would hang outside of his ham range and my atms were taking forever to beat down the shields - after that they died quickly.
Most of my ships are gallente with drones and rails or lasers which do a much better job on the rat packs. By the by the extra hp on the navy version made the difference on warping out with 300-500k damage or total loss of ship - which is what would have happened in a vanilla carc.
I will be assembling a drake or similar posthaste, and the navy carc will go back on its regular runs. And yes this is one of several alts but it does have around 20 ships in service in several regions doing very lucrative private contracts. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1492
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Posted - 2015.09.10 07:04:56 -
[24] - Quote
If you want be really crazy you could build one with overheated polarized HAMs :D
You could get ludicrous DPS for about 30 seconds till you explode :D |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51880
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Posted - 2015.09.10 07:35:51 -
[25] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Full explanation is here.
StormyMtn IV Glacier-Tor wrote: EDIT: I tried to watch your video but it is marked as private. Do you have a public version of it somewhere?
Same here, video is blocked.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Cherri Minoa
IronPig Sev3rance
94
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Posted - 2015.09.10 10:27:41 -
[26] - Quote
Man asks question about how to fit a Navy Caracal. Violent argument ensues about the best way to fit a Drake. Welcome to EVE.
"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
13871
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Posted - 2015.09.10 11:51:22 -
[27] - Quote
Cherri Minoa wrote:Man asks question about how to fit a Navy Caracal. Violent argument ensues about the best way to fit a Drake. Welcome to EVE. dont worry about it, likely ragequit over a month ago. This is an old thread.
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Cherri Minoa
IronPig Sev3rance
94
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Posted - 2015.09.10 13:01:34 -
[28] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Cherri Minoa wrote:Man asks question about how to fit a Navy Caracal. Violent argument ensues about the best way to fit a Drake. Welcome to EVE. dont worry about it, likely ragequit over a month ago. This is an old thread.
True.
And the comments about the Caracal Navy are quite right. Mine is still gathering dust in the hangar.
"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
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Bomber Boris
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.09.10 14:30:45 -
[29] - Quote
I used a navy caracal to farm clone soldiers in sansha lowsec. Then I ran into a gate camp. FeelsBadMan |
Forum Toon
State War Academy Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2015.09.10 18:00:27 -
[30] - Quote
I used to run loads of L3s vs all factions using passive drake even after all the nerfs... you got flight of scout drones for those lousy frigs. you can omni tank and don't bother with replacing shield resist. heavy missiles are pretty good or you can use RLML if you are more "in your face" guy. |
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