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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16653
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:02:14 -
[31] - Quote
ItburnsWhenIRightClick wrote:CCP is ruining owning a super we all trained + waited to fly
Good.
Death2all Supers.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2094
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:09:57 -
[32] - Quote
ItburnsWhenIRightClick wrote:CCP please tell me that As my main spent nearly a year subbing my account to train up to fly a super and you keep chipping away at killing them off in the game.. Now you nerf the DDA's and we all know supers use at least one or more for general use. Is there any way for a refund on skillpoints so I can fly a subcap and enjoy the game as im thinking Elite Dangerous might be better now. Much love and happiness to all you all out there.
I dont get it were super crap before DDA were added to the game?
what is the actual dps loss for the ship? is it that you are upset you cant kill dreads and pos guns as fast or is it that you solo in your super and cant do annoms as fast anymore?
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2094
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:12:37 -
[33] - Quote
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:It's pretty dumb to think they'll just abandon you folks. People who are stupid enough to believe that are no loss when they leave. It's just as stupid as highseccers of all kinds not getting how obviously there will come a balance pass smashing through their gameplay as well. You're all like children, but worse.
this.
supers titans and to an extent dreads and carriers were designed for a sov system that is no longer going to be in assistance... (might take a bit longer to get rid of pos code)
so its reasonable to expect CCP do a proper balance pass on these ships... i would expect supers and titans to get some sort of role bonus changed... but who knows what that will be.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13559
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:20:54 -
[34] - Quote
I love the mentality behind the assumption that what the OP chose to train a while ago should have any bearing on game balance.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16344
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:42:59 -
[35] - Quote
davet517 wrote:Aralyn CormallenBy removing structure grinding completely, CCP could (if they were brave) de-escalate Capital damage and hp completely. Slash Super and Dread damage, but make it easier to apply against the larger subcaps (I would like to see T3's not be able to laugh off my Fighters), and likewise hack Capital hp away across the board, and maybe remove Capital Reps completely (since lower hp and lower damage means subcapital remote reps could pick up the void). Once structure-grinding is gone, its no longer holding the leash on Capital gameplay, bring the Capital and Subcapital games closer together, rather than putting a massive cliff between them. But maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist [:=d wrote: Again, you have an issue of cost. Nobody is going to field a 100 billion isk blap-titan that has had its HP and damage slashed, just because. It's just not worth the risk. If we were talking about a 10 billion isk Titan that was 5 times more effective against sub-caps than a dread, and 5 times as survivable, for 5 times the cost, maybe. Not for 50 times the cost. You can theory craft all kinds of ways to make them "force multipliers", but there are far too many of them now for that to be a reasonable role to play for all of us who trained for them and ground out the isk to buy them. CCP is promising a "re-balance", but, don't hold your breath. "Motherships" languished for years before Dominion. It's not at all unlikely that supers and titans will do the same now, while CCP pursues it's grand plan for a new sov game.
We toss full fleets of suicide dreads around, isk is not an issue.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
238
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Posted - 2015.07.06 19:06:51 -
[36] - Quote
davet517 wrote: I think that the fatal flaw in Fozziesov is that CCP has vastly under-estimated the extent to which mudflation has taken hold. The established sov holders can easily afford to throw thousands of entosis linked ships at any timer they really want to win, and, with TIDI, at least achieve a stalemate until the attacker quits in frustration. They probably should have made them a limited resource (e.g. limited run T1 BPCs, instead of BPOs) to force strategies other than spamming them.
Why do you consider that a fatal flaw? I think of it as Fozziesov working as intended and doing good. A defender who has a thousand pilots active in a system should be able to use them all to defend their SOV. (Although for the daily vulnerability window it'll probably be a dozen ships with Entosis links and 988 PvP ships. Just one defending Entosis is all that's needed to pause the attacker's progress. For a constellation-wide capture race, I could see it being as many as 40 Entosis ships supported by 960 PvP ships.)
The brilliance of Fozziesov is when an established SOV holder doesn't have a thousand pilots in a system - in which case an attacker can come in with a small sub-cap force (or even a single T1 ship, if the system is truly empty) and trigger the capture race in less than an hour. And an empty constellation means the same small sub-cap force can capture the objective in, again, less than an hour.
Fozziesov also means that if an established SOV holder is facing multiple attacks at once - even if each attack is a single T1 ship - those attacks have to be actively responded to. In Dominion SOV, the sheer HP grind was enough to defend SOV in absentia unless the attacker wanted to risk several billion worth of dreads and supers. Now, actively flying pilots will be required. Eight simultaneous attacks would mean that the 1000-pilot force has to be divided up into 125 pilot fleets that each go to different systems. And a clever attacker can use feints and gatecamps wormhole mobility (well, maybe not that last one after tomorrow's patch) to outmaneuver a defender.
Spamming ships will always be a viable tactic. And a much better one than Dominion SOV, IMO, which can be considered to have been a system of spamming AFK HP.
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Deck Cadelanne
Exigent Circumstances CAStabouts
145
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Posted - 2015.07.06 19:34:33 -
[37] - Quote
ItburnsWhenIRightClick wrote: Is there any way for a refund on skillpoints so I can fly a subcap and enjoy the game as im thinking Elite Dangerous might be better now.
Why? Instead of whining about changes, how about trying to adapt? Or you could just fulfil your threat to quit. There were some takers for your stuff already, so I won't ask.
Eli Stan wrote: The brilliance of Fozziesov is when an established SOV holder doesn't have a thousand pilots in a system - in which case an attacker can come in with a small sub-cap force (or even a single T1 ship, if the system is truly empty) and trigger the capture race in less than an hour. And an empty constellation means the same small sub-cap force can capture the objective in, again, less than an hour.
Indeed. Deterring or defeating the "drive by" sov attack will be no big deal - for groups that are active and committed. Sov holders who are lazy or inactive are going to lose your sov space to groups that are more active and committed. Simples.
Nothing wrong with a mechanic that favour folks who are actually playing and trying to do stuff, eh?
davet517 wrote: The established sov holders can easily afford to throw thousands of entosis linked ships at any timer they really want to win, and, with TIDI, at least achieve a stalemate until the attacker quits in frustration.
They might. And if it's important, maybe they will. So there will still be a place for big, epic battles over sov in the game as big fleets fight to win the grid for their Entosis pilots. Awesome.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Syrilian
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
111
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Posted - 2015.07.06 19:43:54 -
[38] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote:ItburnsWhenIRightClick wrote: Is there any way for a refund on skillpoints so I can fly a subcap and enjoy the game as im thinking Elite Dangerous might be better now.
Why? Instead of whining about changes, how about trying to adapt? Or you could just fulfil your threat to quit. There were some takers for your stuff already, so I won't ask. Eli Stan wrote: The brilliance of Fozziesov is when an established SOV holder doesn't have a thousand pilots in a system - in which case an attacker can come in with a small sub-cap force (or even a single T1 ship, if the system is truly empty) and trigger the capture race in less than an hour. And an empty constellation means the same small sub-cap force can capture the objective in, again, less than an hour.
Indeed. Deterring or defeating the "drive by" sov attack will be no big deal - for groups that are active and committed. Sov holders who are lazy or inactive are going to lose your sov space to groups that are more active and committed. Simples. Nothing wrong with a mechanic that favour folks who are actually playing and trying to do stuff, eh?
This. The vast majority of people I have seen pissing and moaning about the new mechanic are all basically whining "you mean we actually have to play the game?" Yes, yes you do. |
Deck Cadelanne
Exigent Circumstances CAStabouts
145
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Posted - 2015.07.06 19:57:46 -
[39] - Quote
Syrilian wrote:
This. The vast majority of people I have seen pissing and moaning about the new mechanic are all basically whining "you mean we actually have to play the game?" Yes, yes you do.
That has been the single weirdest thing I've struggled to get my head around with this bunch of people. "Now I have to log in and actually fly my internet spaceship? WAAA!"
It's not like Fozziesov is going to mean you log on at your normal playing time and find all your sov has flipped. The system is still weighted in favour of the defender: The defender gets a heads-up message as soon as the attacker's link starts it's first "real" cycle, a single defender Entosis all that is required to pause an attack and the "prime time" reinforcement mechanic means the attacker has to finish the job at a time of the defender's choosing. Any defender willing and able to fight and win grid can stop an attack.
It just makes the level of commitment required of an attacker to win sov a function of how much force the defender commits rather than a pile of structure HP.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1985
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Posted - 2015.07.06 21:19:38 -
[40] - Quote
davet517 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
5 time as effective vs subcap AND 5 time the survivability for 5 time the cost? Are you insane?
If anything, for 5 time the efficiency vs subcap it should cost at elast around 30 time as much.
Price progression is not linear with power.
Because...? The price disparity between a Titan and a Dread hasn't changed that much since their introduction, and if you remember right, a Titan or two could blap an entire sub-cap fleet at the press of a button back then. Then, properly fit, and again, for the same price, they could decimate BS fleets. That went away too. Price didn't come down though.
If you nerf/remove something because it was broken, you don't compensate with price reduction. That's always the cost of going for FOTM or WTFPWNMOBILE type of trait in any supported MMO. |
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Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
18
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Posted - 2015.07.06 21:20:55 -
[41] - Quote
Can't wait to see people posting about how a no lifer took their space while they were at work. Good times. |
davet517
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
95
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:05:03 -
[42] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: If you nerf/remove something because it was broken, you don't compensate with price reduction. That's always the cost of going for FOTM or WTFPWNMOBILE type of trait in any supported MMO.
.
Sure, they have the option of making them irrelevant and leaving the price point the same. That effectively removes them from the game while hoisting a middle-finger to those who invested a lot of isk in buying them, and subscription money in training for them. That's a business decision on CCP's part. If subscriptions and participation rise as a result, it was a good one. If they continue to fall, as they have been, well, not so much.
We'll have to wait and see how it plays out, yes? I don't know that Eve is at the point in its life where they can afford to **** off core players much in order to attract newer ones, but, you never know. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1446
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:07:51 -
[43] - Quote
That's weird, I played for over a decade and mostly PVP. I never trained or waited to fly a super, OP doesn't speak for "us all". |
Klas Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:10:33 -
[44] - Quote
O look, I've decided to do something different with my time... I think I'll go tell the world about it because of course everyone cares....
In game contract to Klas Kanjus for all your stuff please. |
davet517
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
95
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:14:24 -
[45] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote:davet517 wrote: The established sov holders can easily afford to throw thousands of entosis linked ships at any timer they really want to win, and, with TIDI, at least achieve a stalemate until the attacker quits in frustration.
They might. And if it's important, maybe they will. So there will still be a place for big, epic battles over sov in the game as big fleets fight to win the grid for their Entosis pilots. Awesome.
You consider spamming T-1 cruisers by the hundreds or thousands just to keep an entosis stalemate going in 90% Tidi from downtime to downtime a "big, epic battle"? It sounds like the old "crash the node on purpose" days to me, just a lot slower. If you've got hundreds of ships with an active entosis link running, you have to grind through all of them fast enough that people can't re-ship and get back on grid. As long as there is at least one running, its a stalemate. It's certainly a viable tactic, with the mechanics as they are now, just like crashing or de-synching the node was back when. An "epic battle" it is not.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
239
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:15:58 -
[46] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Can't wait to see people posting about how a no lifer took their space while they were at work. Good times.
Why would an alliance set their vulnerability window to when their players are at work?
From http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/summer-2015-nullsec-and-sov-status-report/
Quote:Vulnerability and Time Zone Mechanics
The designs surrounding vulnerability windows and time zones have been a major area of focus for us over recent months. Time zone safety is an absolutely critical part of any capture system in a worldwide game like EVE Online, and it is also one of the most challenging aspects of the design to get right. Time zone safe game systems are those that allow players to determine the rough time period in which events can occur and their assets are in danger. They play two crucial roles in a game like EVE:
- They prevent players from losing their stuff while they are unavoidably away from the game (work, sleep, etc). Nobody should feel the need to play the game 24/7 in order to be competitive. [emphasis mine]
- They encourage players to show up at the same place at the same time, facilitating multiplayer gameplay. Playing with and outplaying other human beings is the core of EVE, and putting players in contact with each other is a big part of that. If people can fight over an asset without ever coming into contact with each other, we've lost something very valuable.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
452
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:24:15 -
[47] - Quote
How about giving us the ability to move SP around as we see fit? Once every 24 hours you can take away from one skill and give to another... |
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
398
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:28:21 -
[48] - Quote
davet517 wrote:You consider spamming T-1 cruisers by the hundreds or thousands just to keep an entosis stalemate going in 90% Tidi from downtime to downtime a "big, epic battle"? It sounds like the old "crash the node on purpose" days to me, just a lot slower. If you've got hundreds of ships with an active entosis link running, you have to grind through all of them fast enough that people can't re-ship and get back on grid. As long as there is at least one running, its a stalemate. It's certainly a viable tactic, with the mechanics as they are now, just like crashing or de-synching the node was back when. An "epic battle" it is not.
Just wondering how these hundreds or thousands of t1 cruisers will be moving into the contested constellations and generally getting around? Are bubbles, gate and station camps not going to be a thing anymore? Isn't there already a planned mechanic of spawning extra nodes as battles prolong to avoid this? Isn't the idea of having multiple starting nodes designed around mitigating the effects of extreme tidi?
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
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Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
272
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:55:13 -
[49] - Quote
Best super is a dead super.
@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet
TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub'
Glasgow / Edinbvrgh Meet Organiser
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2310
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Posted - 2015.07.07 01:30:36 -
[50] - Quote
ItburnsWhenIRightClick wrote:CCP please tell me that As my main spent nearly a year subbing my account to train up to fly a super and you keep chipping away at killing them off in the game.. Now you nerf the DDA's and we all know supers use at least one or more for general use. Is there any way for a refund on skillpoints so I can fly a subcap and enjoy the game as im thinking Elite Dangerous might be better now. Much love and happiness to all you all out there. Welcome to how we felt when they turned battleships into garbage just because. Then missiles into garbage just because. Then any large ship vs any small ship into garbage... ad nauseam. Welcome to EvE.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
738
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Posted - 2015.07.07 01:38:20 -
[51] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:That's weird, I played for over a decade and mostly PVP. I never trained or waited to fly a super, OP doesn't speak for "us all".
That is very true of EVE.
...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤
[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Freighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1800
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Posted - 2015.07.07 02:33:17 -
[52] - Quote
Supers / Titan pilots are a minority.
I wish they would delete the mechanics for the ships, refund the pilots the skill points, give them ships to redeem and repurpose the iconic hulls.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow
Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
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Deck Cadelanne
Exigent Circumstances CAStabouts
146
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Posted - 2015.07.07 09:51:56 -
[53] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Can't wait to see people posting about how a no lifer took their space while they were at work. Good times.
Go back and read the patch notes. Unless the defenders are complete idiots, they set their "prime time" window in their prime time.
The scenario you describe won't happen.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Deck Cadelanne
Exigent Circumstances CAStabouts
146
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Posted - 2015.07.07 09:56:39 -
[54] - Quote
davet517 wrote: You consider spamming T-1 cruisers by the hundreds or thousands just to keep an entosis stalemate going in 90% Tidi from downtime to downtime a "big, epic battle"? It sounds like the old "crash the node on purpose" days to me, just a lot slower. If you've got hundreds of ships with an active entosis link running, you have to grind through all of them fast enough that people can't re-ship and get back on grid. As long as there is at least one running, its a stalemate. It's certainly a viable tactic, with the mechanics as they are now, just like crashing or de-synching the node was back when. An "epic battle" it is not.
Have you actually read the dev blogs on this?
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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davet517
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2015.07.07 10:33:17 -
[55] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote: Have you actually read the dev blogs on this?
I have. What's your issue? Unless it's changed since I read it, one link from the aggressor, and one link from the defender, count. If the aggressor has one active, and the defender doesn't, progress toward capture is made. If both have one active, it's a stalemate.
99 bottles of beer on the wall. 99 bottles of beer. If one of those bottles should happen to fall... 98 bottles of beer on the wall. All a defender with sufficient numbers has to do is keep at least 1 link active. If you can spam cheap ships and re-ship faster than they're being killed, you're golden. You don't have to worry about the capture the 10 nodes part. It'll never come to that.
One might think that sov warfare would be all about the fun. It never has been. A constant in sov warfare over the years has been being crafty about making it as boring, frustrating, and tedious for your opponent as possible. The design of fozziesov has some pretty big holes in it in that regard. If it was intended to make sov warfare more fun and exciting, it's got a lot of potential to miss that mark.
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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
401
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Posted - 2015.07.07 11:35:27 -
[56] - Quote
Ugh pls let's not turn this into a repeat of the threadnaught.
@davet:
a) Each player has to have run their entosis link for a full cycle before it counts as a valid connection for purposes of capturing. b) The entosis links have a predetermined value to them which means whelping hundreds of suicide fits will be a non-negligible cost to the alliance/corporation that's whelping. c) Extra nodes spawn as a stalemate continues and the battle state of the nodes is saved over DT. It will always result in at least 10 nodes being fought over during the entire battle.
Now go read the devblog/threadnaught, k thx.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
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davet517
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2015.07.07 12:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Ugh pls let's not turn this into a repeat of the threadnaught.
@davet:
a) Each player has to have run their entosis link for a full cycle before it counts as a valid connection for purposes of capturing. b) The entosis links have a predetermined value to them which means whelping hundreds of suicide fits will be a non-negligible cost to the alliance/corporation that's whelping. c) Extra nodes spawn as a stalemate continues and the battle state of the nodes is saved over DT. It will always result in at least 10 nodes being fought over during the entire battle.
Now go read the devblog/threadnaught, k thx.
Did read it. Did you? It does not say that if a ship that is running an entosis link is killed, that another one has to run for a full cycle after the first one dies before it is active. It just says that they require a one cycle warm up. If you and I are both running one, and you die, does mine take effect immediately as long as it's been running for at least a cycle, or does it not, for a cycle? They might mean the latter, but they did not say that. If it did work that way, spamming them wouldn't be very effective, of course. An attacker would still be able to grind you down.
As to cost, are you shlitting me? Don't know if you've noticed, but mudflation is rampant in Eve these days. The larger entities welp Rattlesnakes and Dreads, ffs. What makes you think welping cheap entosis fits would ever become a cost issue?
Yes. If you ever make it through the reinforcement cycles, in the defender's prime time, you've got the constellation wide battle to contend with. If you're facing a coalition with a five figure member base, your chances of pushing it that far, if they can spam you to death, isn't very great.
Nobody knows for certain what's going to happen. It does make it interesting. At the same time, there are design holes in the system, and Eve players have proven themselves very willing and able to exploit those.
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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
401
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Posted - 2015.07.07 12:55:49 -
[58] - Quote
"The first cycle of the module is always a "warmup cycle" and has no impact. If you lose lock or the module is disabled for any reason, you'll need to go through that warmup cycle again before you can continue exerting any influence over the structure"
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/summer-2015-nullsec-and-sov-status-report/?_ga=1.53517984.90528927.1425161934
Seems pretty crystal to me.
edit: And of course consider the defensive indices which gives a defender upto a 6x advantage in these hypothetical complete stalemate situations (and can't prevent incoming hostiles from using the incoming gates to actually approach the node in the first place)
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
567
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Posted - 2015.07.07 13:00:16 -
[59] - Quote
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:It's pretty dumb to think they'll just abandon you folks. People who are stupid enough to believe that are no loss when they leave. It's just as stupid as highseccers of all kinds not getting how obviously there will come a balance pass smashing through their gameplay as well. You're all like children, but worse.
It is pretty dumb, however lets look at the evidence at hand: Fozzie and Rise's complete inability to balance ships above small gang levels.
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Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
687
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Posted - 2015.07.07 13:08:09 -
[60] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Angelica Dreamstar wrote:It's pretty dumb to think they'll just abandon you folks. People who are stupid enough to believe that are no loss when they leave. It's just as stupid as highseccers of all kinds not getting how obviously there will come a balance pass smashing through their gameplay as well. You're all like children, but worse. It is pretty dumb, however lets look at the evidence at hand: Fozzie and Rise's complete inability to balance ships above small gang levels. OR, maybe, the whole point is to get away from huge blobs and mob mentality.
It's really like doing community work and when you don't see me post I had a day off. We have thirty five degree here! Asphalt's melting everywhere, sticking on MY SHOES! Can't even smoke, the cig dries out after a minute. What clothes do I wear? :)
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