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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:33:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Abyss Jack
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Originally by: Abyss Jack Ye lets nerf probing because of missionrunners...
if you would have tested the new scan probe system, you'd now - every trained monkey can push the 3 buttons that are needed to get a result with scan probes now. no more player skill involved to find a safespot/missionrunning spot.
oh - and it only takes 30 seconds with recon launchers to find such a spot now.
i dont see the point to nerf a realy good concept because you want to feel saver in space... sry m8
Maybe you'd see the point when you got 60 npc chasing your webbed, scrambled, damaged ship that's low on cap and with a highly specialized fitting against the mission opponents all over the mission area when 1-2 'pirates' warp in to finish you off.
The current frequency you have to check for probes is about once per minute. Against recon probe launchers it is every 30 seconds. Every other minute isn't good enough with the currently available probes and launchers for having any chance for escaping. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:48:00 -
[92]
Gankbears farming mission runners .. how is ther a balance between risk and reward here?
Gankbear knows where the Missioner is.. knows what his tank will be set for.. knows what dammage he is goint to be dealing... knows he will be being pounded on by NPCs
Who is risking what here.. seem the pirate is risking nothing. He dont even need to waste money on amo.. scram and nos and the rats will do the job for him.
Mission runner knows sooner or later he is F**ked if he stays in Lowsec so guess what he dose.
Gankers hunt lowsec miners to death then cry that the lowsec belts are empty. Gankers camp gates then cry that there is not enough traffic in lowsec for them to farm. Lets see if we can figure out what is gona happen over the next few weeks ... HMmmmm.
As for moveing LvL4 agents to lowsec.. it wont work..you cant boot lowsec by nerfing Highsec.... people will more likely quit.
The key is to improove the actual security of low sec so that it is infact safer than 0.0.. ATM Lowsec is the most dangerous place you can be... the rewards are already there .. there is just to much risk. Push the pirates out to Lower lowsec and 0.0 where they should be and open up lowsec to industry and watch as people gradualy move deeper
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:49:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Abyss Jack
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Originally by: Abyss Jack Ye lets nerf probing because of missionrunners...
if you would have tested the new scan probe system, you'd now - every trained monkey can push the 3 buttons that are needed to get a result with scan probes now. no more player skill involved to find a safespot/missionrunning spot.
oh - and it only takes 30 seconds with recon launchers to find such a spot now.
i dont see the point to nerf a realy good concept because you want to feel saver in space... sry m8
haha .. wrong assumption ... i never did missions above lvl2 ones in my newb-empire days. i will be one of the hunters of NPCers. i will find them in no time - i will gank them with my corpmates 'til they'll leave for hi-sec. i will find them in less in a minute.
i will quit this game because hunting people has become a "1-click, now i have found you" thingy .. and without a good hunt this game is boring as ****. ___________________
EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears
no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts |
Smagd
Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:02:00 -
[94]
I wish there was a way to make NPCs switch target to the inbound pirate.
It's sort of tricky to balance it: Leave the concept of support and dedicated tankers alive, but still, an intelligent opponent wouldn't necessarily shoot the most tanked aggressor.
Of course, why they'd switch fire to someone inbound in effect HELPING them get rid of their aggressor would be hard to figure outside total and blind NBSI. --
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:05:00 -
[95]
Hmmm, I've been doing missions in lowsec (0.1,0.2) for ages now, but I think I'll move to 0.5 now. The risk-vs-reward just got stupid.
I can pvp, and I have a lot of sps. That's not the point. With the new system, a recon can scan me down so fast and easily that they'll be on me before I have any chance to notice them (you don't exactly have time to check scanner all the time on a mission, even checking local gets hectic at times). On a mission I have to kit for pve, and I know full well what chance I have against a pvp-fitted anti-mission-runner ship: zero. In a pvp setup, sure... but you don't survive missions in pvp kit, the **** things aren't all that easy.
There's no way I can kit for pvp survival (solo) *and* reliably do lvl4 missions, without going for crazy faction stuff.
To top it off, the rewards were already only so-so vs the time involved. I used to do lowsec missions for fun to unwind when there were no war decs active, but now... if I want to take that kind of risk, I might as well go to 0.0 where I have much better risk-vs-reward factor.
I'm not whining here. I'll just adapt and move to 0.5, it's the only thing that makes sense now. No sane person will be solo in lowsec now, ultrahigh risk vs. minimal reward. Bar the occasional gate bubble, 0.0 is safer.
You thought lowsec was empty before? Just wait a few months, it'll be *barren*.
While I do like the new scan system (the old one was horrible), it has swung too much in the other direction. It's just do easy and fast to find anything now, it's almost ridiculous. I'm tempted to grab my Arazu and go pirate myself, but RP considerations stop that. Sigh.
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Ishana
Minmatar The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:19:00 -
[96]
The way things are now it will be a downward spiral.
1. Pirates will find every and all mission runners and either randsom/kill them or make them quit the mission. 2. low sec mission runners will no longer take the risk and either quit EVE or move to high-sec. 3. pirates will no longer be able to find targets in low sec, and either quit eve or go do something else. 4. low sec will be deserted and every time someone gets the bright idea to do a mission in low sec it all starts over.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:20:00 -
[97]
But the mostly useless roids in Lowsec will grow to huge proportions! --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:52:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Xaildaine The key is to improove the actual security of low sec so that it is infact safer than 0.0.. ATM Lowsec is the most dangerous place you can be... the rewards are already there .. there is just to much risk. Push the pirates out to Lower lowsec and 0.0 where they should be and open up lowsec to industry and watch as people gradualy move deeper
Im just gona quote myself .. lol .. i never thought id do that.
Its called LOW security not NO security 0.0 is where the Prats should be
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Rastam3n
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:17:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux As I'm the Arazu pilot being mentioned a few times, I can concur it's gotten way too easy. Decloaking happens only in certain missions where the gate-exit is close to an object but otherwise it's fairly simple to stay cloaked.
With faction disruptors I can scramble out to 50km and with the Damps there's nothing my target's going to do to hurt me while I ransom him and, upon failure of payment, while I wait for the backup to arrive.
Actually it's 60km scramble range...
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:36:00 -
[100]
Will the payout of missions run in .4 space go up if fewer pilots run them? No. Then this situation needs to be fixed because the risk/reward is out of whack. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
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Sheeba IV
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:37:00 -
[101]
I'm a Low sec Mission runner in a .2 system...just wanted to get that out in the open.
My point is while I don't want to be able to warp into a mission and be 100% safe from PvPers I do want to have time to recognize a pvper is in local, warp to a station/pos get my combat ship to have fun with them. TBH 5 min is not enough but it's close however 30 seconds when recon probes is really not enough time here are a couple of potential solutions:
A) One idea I read of reducing your ship sig radius while in a deadspace pocket thereby making it harder to locate you.
B) Another idea have mission gates locked with some skill the pirates can use (there are already skills in game that could be used) to unlock the gate thereby giving us more time to take action. Codebreaker skills come to mind - agent gives missions and you automatically get the code to activate the gate the time it takes would decrease with better skills. PvPers who want to kill Mission runners get to a gate and have to use the codebreaker skills to get in.
I could elaborate on this but I'm trying to not be too verbose.
Anyway that's my 2 ISK
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Malena Panic
Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:54:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Sheeba IV My point is while I don't want to be able to warp into a mission and be 100% safe from PvPers I do want to have time to recognize a pvper is in local, warp to a station/pos get my combat ship to have fun with them.
This has come up several times. Did you know that there are some groups of people who only do PvE in PvP-fitted ships? Scramblers and all. It's a tactical choice like most other things in this game. Do you bring a setup that can deal with unanticipated dangers, or do you bring a super-specialized piece of gear that can punch above its weight class, but only if you aren't jumped? In any situation where there's risk of pirate attack, I know which I'd bring. Lv4s now too hard for your non-optimized setup? Bring a friend and share the reward. It's Massively Multiplayer, after all.
I really think that the underlying issue here isn't scan-times vs. warning, or low-sec risk vs. reward, but solo play vs. teamwork. Play as a team and you will be much more successful.
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Lustre
ISK Sink Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:58:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Sheeba IV I'm a Low sec Mission runner in a .2 system...just wanted to get that out in the open.
My point is while I don't want to be able to warp into a mission and be 100% safe from PvPers I do want to have time to recognize a pvper is in local, warp to a station/pos get my combat ship to have fun with them. TBH 5 min is not enough but it's close however 30 seconds when recon probes is really not enough time here are a couple of potential solutions:
A) One idea I read of reducing your ship sig radius while in a deadspace pocket thereby making it harder to locate you.
B) Another idea have mission gates locked with some skill the pirates can use (there are already skills in game that could be used) to unlock the gate thereby giving us more time to take action. Codebreaker skills come to mind - agent gives missions and you automatically get the code to activate the gate the time it takes would decrease with better skills. PvPers who want to kill Mission runners get to a gate and have to use the codebreaker skills to get in.
I could elaborate on this but I'm trying to not be too verbose.
Anyway that's my 2 ISK
Nice solution actually (point B), since the pirates will have to use up a midslot to fit the codebreaker so will semi-nerf the PvP setup to balance better against the mission runner. Adding to this, the code should change every 15 seconds so that if the entire pirate group doesn't jump in together they get split up.... also it alleviates the cloaking to some extent as a whole group will decloak each other. - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Sheeba IV
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:03:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Sheeba IV My point is while I don't want to be able to warp into a mission and be 100% safe from PvPers I do want to have time to recognize a pvper is in local, warp to a station/pos get my combat ship to have fun with them.
This has come up several times. Did you know that there are some groups of people who only do PvE in PvP-fitted ships? Scramblers and all. It's a tactical choice like most other things in this game. Do you bring a setup that can deal with unanticipated dangers, or do you bring a super-specialized piece of gear that can punch above its weight class, but only if you aren't jumped? In any situation where there's risk of pirate attack, I know which I'd bring. Lv4s now too hard for your non-optimized setup? Bring a friend and share the reward. It's Massively Multiplayer, after all.
I really think that the underlying issue here isn't scan-times vs. warning, or low-sec risk vs. reward, but solo play vs. teamwork. Play as a team and you will be much more successful.
I solo missions because my play is interrupt driven by my real life. It is not fair to my friends when I'm having to go afk every 5 min at times. I have already been complained about by friends when I used to do missions in groups. I group with M8's when I have dedicated blocks of time to play which is not as often as I like; I solo when they are either not available or the probability of multiple interruptions is high.
I should be able to group play solo when I want and do team stuff when I want.
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Lustre
ISK Sink Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:12:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Sheeba IV stuff
Stuff. It's Massively Multiplayer, after all.
I really think that the underlying issue here isn't scan-times vs. warning, or low-sec risk vs. reward, but solo play vs. teamwork. Play as a team and you will be much more successful.
You know how in real life, some people prefer to do things alone? Walk in the woods. Go surfing. Paint a picture. Cook a good meal. RL is massively multiplayer too... but sometimes, people just like doing things solo.
A painting by Picasso sold for $149m a few weeks ago... that was a very successful solo effort by any account. No team could have matched Picasso's brilliance and produced a piece of such exquisite beauty. Of course, a single individual stuck his elbow through it and nullified the sale - another spectacular solo effort. My point is, it doesn't take a team to do things well, although sometimes it does.
This whole argument about mission-runners having to form gangs is becoming boring. Sometimes we like to play solo - there is enough risk inherent in the mission in lo-sec. Just getting there is a challenge - remember that most gate-gank killings have always happened when people jump in, not out.
Besides, massively multiplayer refers to the universe, not the individual play styles. - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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LC Sulla
BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:13:00 -
[106]
What's really interesting in this thread is the number of pirates who are concerned about this development (not just the mission runners). Scanning has become so easy that low-sec mission running may become virtually non existant. It's easy. Do the math...
High sec - less reward / no risk (unless war dec'ed) Low sec - more reward / very very high risk (no concord) 0.0 - most reward / little risk if careful (especially for 0.0 alliance members in their own space and monitoring intel channels and local)
Ideally shouldn't it be, little reward / no risk moderate reward / moderate risk maximum reward / maximum risk...
If you LOSE ISK doing low sec mission running then you just aren't going to do it.
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Abyss Jack
Serial Chill3rz
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:20:00 -
[107]
I only admit that lowsec agents should have more reward. But thats all... You can solo in highsec, buy rattlesnakes and all that expansiv stuff to speed up your mission time. In lowsec you have to gang up, cuz in gang you'll be save most time. Solo isk farming with huge reward just destroys a mmo, me points the implant prices and loot. If its harder to get that stuff you'll automaticly get more isk for your LP... otherwise its possible to talk with pirates? yes its called communication... you could pay a weekly resident fee or something... **** it sounds like all missioneers in lowsec are doomed...
And pvp never becomes boring, even if it needs only 3 clicks... don't talk with the voice of all pvp'ers. If you are bored of eve its ok..., but it ain't boring for teh others...
--------------------------------- my english suxx, but i have a opinion. teh sig |
Khamal Jolstien
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:09:00 -
[108]
Here's a possible solution I'm surprised no one has thought of.
What if there was an audible tone for everyone who is detected by a scan?
Sort of like submarine warfare. You can turn on that active sonar if you want, but everyone and their cousin who is in range will hear it.
Instead of sound, it will be an electronic signature that can be detected by your ship and translated into an audible warning tone, much like how the Radar-Warning-Receivers on the F-16 and other modern fighters work.
Like in air-combat and submarine warfare, using this will allow you to "see" your enemies, but will make you known to them. The only difference is that with scan probes, your enemies only see where your probe is, not you.
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Sheeba IV
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:15:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Here's a possible solution I'm surprised no one has thought of.
What if there was an audible tone for everyone who is detected by a scan?
Sort of like submarine warfare. You can turn on that active sonar if you want, but everyone and their cousin who is in range will hear it.
Instead of sound, it will be an electronic signature that can be detected by your ship and translated into an audible warning tone, much like how the Radar-Warning-Receivers on the F-16 and other modern fighters work.
Like in air-combat and submarine warfare, using this will allow you to "see" your enemies, but will make you known to them. The only difference is that with scan probes, your enemies only see where your probe is, not you.
I have turned the sound off after the 2nd week of play. I like quiet sorry would need to be translated into something visual to be useful to me.
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Ekscalybur
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:36:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Nightwings A possible solution I thought of today would be a device that lets you know someone is about to enter your mission. Like a Gurista Warp Ping Device. Lets you know someone has locked onto your mission warp beacon and is about to use it.
And once again, I have nothing against piracy. If you love it, cool. I don't flame anyone that destroys my ship. I had a nice conversation with the guys that toasted me last night, and he explained what he did to find me. I don't know if I am a "carebear" player, I just enjoy missions, and the light thrill of working in 0.4 space. As to finding a Corp or a gang, I know it is a mmorpg, I just like to do stuff on my own sometimes. Thanks to all for the post though, I appreciate the feedback.
Nightwings
This doesn't even need to be done, if CCP decides this needs tweaked a bit. All that needs to be done is make our ships more like submarines. Make scan probes an 'active' sonar/radar search. In other words, once they start scanning, everyone within range of them knows they are being scanned.
To keep the advantage more towards the priates, make it skill based whether or not the 'victim' is able to pick up the fact that they are being actively scanned for. For added risk for the pirates, maybe the active scanning should aggro the unaggroed rats in the mission runners mission, so he gets a warm welcome when he warps in on his prey :P
Ok, that last bit is a touch silly.
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Khamal Jolstien
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:47:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sheeba IV
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Here's a possible solution I'm surprised no one has thought of.
What if there was an audible tone for everyone who is detected by a scan?
Sort of like submarine warfare. You can turn on that active sonar if you want, but everyone and their cousin who is in range will hear it.
Instead of sound, it will be an electronic signature that can be detected by your ship and translated into an audible warning tone, much like how the Radar-Warning-Receivers on the F-16 and other modern fighters work.
Like in air-combat and submarine warfare, using this will allow you to "see" your enemies, but will make you known to them. The only difference is that with scan probes, your enemies only see where your probe is, not you.
I have turned the sound off after the 2nd week of play. I like quiet sorry would need to be translated into something visual to be useful to me.
Well, I'm sure they would have a visual cue as well (the radar-warning-receivers, ( RWR ) do). Maybe a pulsing light on the HUD or something to that effect.
Maybe a mod that's passive, but still appears on the module buttons. When it detects a scan, it makes a noise and also pulses a certain color related to range?
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Adrian Kerensky
Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:51:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Irrilian
Originally by: Wolfmoon I said before this patch that the inside of missions should have been off limits to pirates...or anyone not ganged with you, the mission owner.
This isnt the solution, what you're advocating essentially amounts to instancing, the antithesis of Eve.
Probing used to be a dark art, it took patience and skill to be profient in it, let alone to master the more arcane aspects like busting off ecliptic e.g. missions and deep safespots, it sorely needed improvement, principally full 3d scan probes. However currently anyone who's trained up the skills can squeeze out a long range probe and be fairly confident of getting good results for bs sized craft, small vessels are more problematic. Whats needed is to make probing a bit more of a challenge, not in terms of skill points required but putting the thought back into the process.
Personally I prefered it when it was a dark art. Busting a safespot was something to feel good about, and those competent in the use of probes were few and far between, it was almost like a profession.
Just another example of CCP catering to those without patience, skill or imagination.
Originally by: Ebedar Hyperion setup that put out about 1500 DPS, yet it still lost to a ridiculously well well tanked BC.
Wrong?
Latest Vid: Curses to all |
mynameisaguy
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:10:00 -
[113]
I dont know if this has been pointed out yet, but not even high-sec mission runners will be safe: They can probe out your high sec mission too, come in, take something from a can and then gank your ass concord-free. Solo mission running may never be possible again.
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Y'laaris Brood
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:26:00 -
[114]
What makes me laugh is the number of mission runners flying around uber ships with T2 and faction kit and when you attack them, they just stare at you wondering whats going on.
Shooting back would probably be way more effective than they think...
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:29:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 16:29:46 Lets remove the ability for NPC corporation players to own Capital ships,BS,exhumers, and tech II ships.
I think that will fix a large problem.
Why should NPC corporation players get no risk at all?
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead . Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:31:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Y'laaris Brood What makes me laugh is the number of mission runners flying around uber ships with T2 and faction kit and when you attack them, they just stare at you wondering whats going on.
Shooting back would probably be way more effective than they think...
For the few that do it, it's their problem. I personally do not see a reason to employ a faction ship in a task that can be done by something much cheaper and effective, i.e. T1 Raven.
However, using faction ship mission people as your centerpoint idea is just incomplete.. not nearly everyone fits that stereotype..
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Johnny Bravo
Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:46:00 -
[117]
I was doing Lvl 4 mission before in low-sec. In fact, all my missions was in low-sec. Now after Kali i know for sure what i wouldnt do them in anything lower than 0.5. The extra 30-40% in reward just dont warrant huge risk and major pain in the ass to scan for probes every 30 sec. Its not that doing mission in low sec are hard now - its almost impossible. To warrant the risk i'll need to recive 100 millions per mission at least - i.e. at least 5x as much as now.
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Le ChuanChi
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:14:00 -
[118]
there is another issue to this as well...pirates with access to high sec can also disrupt high sec mission running...by entering the mission area.. killing npcs.. (with the hope that the hapless carebear will open one of the loot cans thus getting flagged to the pirate). on certain missions they could easily run and get the required mission loot thus making it not possible for the mission runner to finish the mission (though that woudl require the pirate to know the mission the person is on).
So even high sec mission running can be disrupted.. though not to the level of low sec of course.
Ask what happens when all these tactics are used against mission runners and what happens to the game then.
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Abyss Jack
Serial Chill3rz
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:35:00 -
[119]
so we see, missionrunning is not a serios profession... ...mining and npc'ing is! Back to the roots --------------------------------- my english suxx, but i have a opinion. teh sig |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 18:08:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Abyss Jack so we see, missionrunning is not a serios profession... ...mining and npc'ing is! Back to the roots
Unfortunately apparently that's what the shadows behind the keyboards are diciding to do with each keystroke...
Nerfing missions for some reason. At least post it somewhere as an official intention so that people don't waste their time in mechanic and a profession that will be dead in Eve in near future!!!
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