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Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:32:00 -
[1]
I realise that this point of view will be unpopular, but I honestly believe EVE would be better off if cap injectors were removed from the game.
One of the things I've noticed about pretty much all the setups being thrown around for post Revelations battlecruisers and battleships, both new and old, is that there are very few that don't involve cap injectors. It appears to be a 'must have' module in the new combat paradigm where you have to tank hard and gank hard and pray that the much vaunted 'new longer fights' last slightly longer for you than the other guy.
Cap is life. This has always been true, but after Revelations it's even more so. Nos is king and he who runs out of cap first loses. I've seen setup after setup that suggests using cargo expansion rigs for the sole purpose of being able to carry more cap charges so one can tank longer and harder, and resist the evil curse of the nos.
Am I the only one to whom this seems wrong?
Nos is certainly part of the problem. Injectors are one of the only two defences available, and the other is to nos them back. I understand there are plans in the works to nerf nos, and in my opinion they really can't come too soon.
The nos nerf, when it comes probably won't reverse the trend towards injector use though, because when it comes down to it, there are very few non injector setups that can compete with a setup that does use them and that's the crux of my problem: the injector has essentially become an I-Win-Button. If you have one and the other doesn't, then they're most likely doomed. There shouln't be any module that gives that kind of advantage in EVE.
I-Win-Buttons are bad.
Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort |
slothe
Caldari
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:35:00 -
[2]
you only need to read the title to tell your gallente.
but seriously, try flying amarr or a megathron, or gain some pvp experience in something thats not a dominix or a ship with nosferatu, then post again.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
UBERPWN
Amarr
LDK
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:55:00 -
[3]
Why Gallente person should be bothered by cap injetor - they have plenty mid slots to install it. On the other hand there are "some" races that don't have that luxury or they have to sacrifice web or AB/MWD for that. Maby in certain situations extra propulsion won't be needed cause of "warp to 0" addition in to the game.
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Dan Grobag
Caldari
ICE is Coming to EVE
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:06:00 -
[4]
cap injector into lowslot, and amarr ftw !
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Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:07:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Alex Tremayne on 30/11/2006 16:07:25
 Originally by: UBERPWN
Why Gallente person should be bothered by cap injetor - they have plenty mid slots to install it. On the other hand there are "some" races that don't have that luxury or they have to sacrifice web or AB/MWD for that. Maby in certain situations extra propulsion won't be needed cause of "warp to 0" addition in to the game.
The whole tone of your reply kind of makes my point for me. You seem to view a cap injector as a near essential mod even given the limited midslots available on your racial ships. My argument is that perhaps they shouldn't be so essential.
Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort |
Backalley Anna
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:14:00 -
[6]
NOS can be countered by range and ECM as well, not just other NOS. I think the problem is with the NOS not the cap injectors. There are only so many you can carry anyway.
"Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done." R.A. Heinlein |
Deva Blackfire
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Edited by: Alex Tremayne on 30/11/2006 16:07:25
Originally by: UBERPWN
Why Gallente person should be bothered by cap injetor - they have plenty mid slots to install it. On the other hand there are "some" races that don't have that luxury or they have to sacrifice web or AB/MWD for that. Maby in certain situations extra propulsion won't be needed cause of "warp to 0" addition in to the game.
The whole tone of your reply kind of makes my point for me. You seem to view a cap injector as a near essential mod even given the limited midslots available on your racial ships. My argument is that perhaps they shouldn't be so essential.
Get on test serv, fit Abaddon without cap injector, fly it. Tell me how was your cap. Then switch to geddon - do same test. Tell me how was your cap. In the end you can try absolution and tell me results.
And if you dont have time/skills i will tell you - guns ALONE drain those ships to zero cap. Fit cap rechargers you say? Yes - with 3x cpr/recharger it should be sustainable (abaddon needs abt 6). Now tell my why minmatar/caldari dont need to use 3-6 ****ty mods to get same result?
And injectors fills the gap at least enabling some ships to be sustained for a while.
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Mortuus
Minmatar
Just-fun
Distant Star Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:17:00 -
[8]
It has to do with the nature of combat.
You need peak performance usually for a couple short periods of time, thats it.
The injector gives you more cap for less slots than rechargers, allowing you to run setups that a cap recharger won't.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
DarkElf
Caldari
DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:20:00 -
[9]
If they removed cap injectors they would have to completely rework or scrap nos, battles would be much shorter which is the opposite of what they are trying to do atm and it would generally be crap.
personally i like the way they work and yeah i cap inject 90% of my ships.
DE
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slothe
Caldari
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:22:00 -
[10]
hmm thinking about it.
as they have nefred ecm, if they nerf cap boosters and nos......
minmatar win eve.
wouldnt that be a turn of events.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
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Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:29:00 -
[11]
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not advocating an isolated nerf of injectors. There would have to be an accompanying rebalance of nos and capacitor in general to go with it. It just seems wrong to me that there is a single mod that so many people view as almost totally essential. Using cap injectors should be an option, but it shouldn't be the only viable option, there should be others that have their own advantages and disadvantages too. I mean that was the reason ECM was overpowered, every one had at least one cause it was just dumb not to.
Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort |
Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc.
Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 30/11/2006 16:31:28
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 30/11/2006 16:30:50
Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Edited by: Alex Tremayne on 30/11/2006 16:07:25
Originally by: UBERPWN
Why Gallente person should be bothered by cap injetor - they have plenty mid slots to install it. On the other hand there are "some" races that don't have that luxury or they have to sacrifice web or AB/MWD for that. Maby in certain situations extra propulsion won't be needed cause of "warp to 0" addition in to the game.
The whole tone of your reply kind of makes my point for me. You seem to view a cap injector as a near essential mod even given the limited midslots available on your racial ships. My argument is that perhaps they shouldn't be so essential.
i agree with you they shouldn't be essetial. however the reason they are is because hybrids and laser eat so much cap(mostly laser) that a ship can't even shoot its guns and run a rep for any normal given amount of time. To fix the issue you're talking about, you would have to remove, nos/neuts, cap injectors and lower substantially the cap usage of hybrids and lasers. not likely to happen any time soon.
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Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn
Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Edited by: Alex Tremayne on 30/11/2006 16:07:25
Originally by: UBERPWN
Why Gallente person should be bothered by cap injetor - they have plenty mid slots to install it. On the other hand there are "some" races that don't have that luxury or they have to sacrifice web or AB/MWD for that. Maby in certain situations extra propulsion won't be needed cause of "warp to 0" addition in to the game.
The whole tone of your reply kind of makes my point for me. You seem to view a cap injector as a near essential mod even given the limited midslots available on your racial ships. My argument is that perhaps they shouldn't be so essential.
i agree with you they shouldn't be essetial. however the reason they are is because hybrids and laser eat so much cap(mostly laser) that a ship can even shoot its gun and run a rep for any normall given amount of time. To fix the issue you're talking about you would have to remove, nos/neuts, cap injectors and lower substantially the cap usage of hybrids and lasers. not likely to happen any time soon.
I'm aware that any rebalance of this kind would be a huge undertaking. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be worth doing though. 
Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort |
sherbert lemon
Amarr
Fleet Of Elite
The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:10:00 -
[14]
of course there are essential mods for most races, its like guns or launchers are essential for most races.
with the new warp to 0 if you dnt have a bubble, a Nos-er is vital, with a quick lock and heavy Nos/Neut, it may be able to neut a ship just from warp quick enough that it cannot jump, if you have cap injectors, you may be able to get away. Look, some part of a ship has to be vital for it to run, so long as we dnt have to refuel our ship, this is a great way of doing so, and if u cripple a man at his most vital part, his legs, he is going no-where, i think all that has happened is people have thought more about ways to get around being crippled quickly
Im amarr, and cap inj. are a life saver, as with anything cap related, that is our only ( :) ) weakness, and without cap stuff, we'd be truly ****ed
- Lemon, gimme cap :)
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Kard Fater
Caldari
1337.sz. ITALBOLT
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: sherbert lemon
...it may be able to neut a ship just from warp quick enough that it cannot jump, if you have cap injectors, you may be able to get away...
You can jump with virtually no cap. On the other side, web(s)/point(s) deactivates when cap is empty. Against nos a passive tank and projectile/missile is proven to be good.
(Nothing personal, but oh my God I hate Gallenteans and ISS, they make me sick.)
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Kunming
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not advocating an isolated nerf of injectors. There would have to be an accompanying rebalance of nos and capacitor in general to go with it. It just seems wrong to me that there is a single mod that so many people view as almost totally essential. Using cap injectors should be an option, but it shouldn't be the only viable option, there should be others that have their own advantages and disadvantages too. I mean that was the reason ECM was overpowered, every one had at least one cause it was just dumb not to.
I dont see Minmatar and Caldari fitting cap injectors.. oh wait they dont use cap at all passive tanked non-cap users 4TW...
Amarr and Gallente are already sacreficing 1 med slot and tons of PG to this mod to have a chance against NOS and you wanna take that away too? Tell me... what the heck are you smoking?!
Try flying something else than a dominix..
Quote:
READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Verone
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Alex Tremayne
I-Win-Buttons are bad.
If you are a dominix pilot, which I suspect is the prespective this post is coming from, then this is the definition of irony.
VETO FOR HIRE
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:08:00 -
[18]
NOS could stand to loose its drain amount a little bit. I agree that injectors are one of the only real counters.
____
"If your not dyin' your not tryin'."
"Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Thor Xian
Vertigo One
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:11:00 -
[19]
The Hurricane setup I'm going to try doesn't have a cap injector. And I don't think it will need one. But time will tell.
~Thor Xian, Material Defender
"Victory is the weakness of the enemy."
Corp/Alliance Services |
Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc.
Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:20:00 -
[20]
their isn't a problem with nos/neut and cap injectors. they are fine and work as they should. the issue is with lasers and hybrid eating cap while missiles, projectiles and drones boats, don't require any. its a massive imbalance
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:24:00 -
[21]
The inexorable march toward whining about every totally fine module in the game continues...
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:27:00 -
[22]
What needs to happen is that injectors need to have much higher capacity, but MUCH longer reload. You should use them "to get out of tight situations" not to sustain modules indefinatly.
Something like a 1-2 minute reload, while holding 2-3x as many charges as they currently do.
You would then basicaly get a fixed number of charges to use per fight... rather than just tank till you are out of charges.
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DarkElf
Caldari
DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:52:00 -
[23]
i do agree that injectors should be to combat nos setup not a standard module. pretty much any pvp bs apart from maybe a nos domi and other nos equivalent bs has to fit one to operate or they die bery very easily and many other ships fit them standard as well such as command ships, many hacs, battlecruisers etc. but i don't really see a fix for that tbh without completely reworking the entire cap system
DE
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/11/2006 18:56:26
Originally by: slothe
you only need to read the title to tell your gallente.
but seriously, try flying amarr or a megathron,
I fly a Brutix and a Megathron, typically. Does that mean I'm not Gallente? 
Originally by: Alex Tremayne
I-Win-Buttons are bad.
Dude, NOS is the i-win button. Cap injectors just let us stay alive a tiny bit longer...
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Borasao
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:02:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Borasao on 30/11/2006 19:04:10
They're no different than potions in Diablo... eventually, you just load up every container slot with all the potions you can carry so you can fight/cast constantly until you run out of potions, then you leave and go buy more. The game dictates it and before long, you can't play without it because either everyone else is doing it and/or the game is simply balanced around having them.
I agree. I thought the complete and utter reliance on potions in Diablo was cheesy and I think the same about cap injectors. I think the above comment about allowing them to inject only once every few minutes (maybe 5 minutes) would be what the spirit of the module is about. As it is, it's just a pump and dump.
As far as certain ships needing them, it's only the fitting that dictates that. You don't *have* to put a full rack of neutrons on your Megathron. If you didn't do that, you might not need the injectors. However, since everyone else is doing using the injectors to fit the MWD and the neutrons, you *must* as well in order to remain competitive.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Borasao
I think the above comment about allowing them to inject only once every few minutes (maybe 5 minutes) would be what the spirit of the module is about. As it is, it's just a pump and dump.
Well, sure... when they nerf NOS, and cap usage on some guns... ok!
Quote:
As far as certain ships needing them, it's only the fitting that dictates that. You don't *have* to put a full rack of neutrons on your Megathron.
Even electrons use too much to run them + MWD at beginning of fight + adequate tank for PVP. How could you not know THAT? What are you going to tell us next - that you don't need to put blasters on your Megathron?
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: DarkElf
i do agree that injectors should be to combat nos setup not a standard module. pretty much any pvp bs apart from maybe a nos domi and other nos equivalent bs has to fit one
Cap injected domis are wicked  Neuts? heeheeeheee...
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
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