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Lizzetta Maken
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.07.13 07:20:22 -
[1] - Quote
Has this always been so? How does this really work?
Let`s take Mantis as an example. Sold in jita for about 27 000 000 and costs about 45 000 000 to build.
I am sure this has a perfectly good explanation, I just need to understand how this happens and why to better understand the market.
Help me? |
pushdogg
Tell Your Mum To Call Me Get Off My Lawn
30
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Posted - 2015.07.13 07:28:43 -
[2] - Quote
The ones making that stuff don't purchase the materials, that doesn't make them free....but it makes their bottom line a little different.
Researched bpo`s help, as well as a knowledge of the market and it's inner workings.
Manufacture is a bad way of making isk in my experience , the ones doing it have a firm foothold and have for a while.
I would pick another way to make isk. |
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
57
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Posted - 2015.07.13 07:35:18 -
[3] - Quote
About 5-10 mantis sold per day in jita. Some very old sell orders. I think the price is low because there is little demand. |
Lizzetta Maken
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.07.13 07:36:44 -
[4] - Quote
Thnx..
It is a complex game. This helped a lot.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
324
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Posted - 2015.07.13 07:55:48 -
[5] - Quote
As soon as you find fhe way of cheap source of materials required to produce goodies you are on the right path.
If you buying ore/minerals from market, then you should find the right goodies to produes in the first line which grant you a small but constant income and then you could spread it out. Don't forget about skills/implants. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1275
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Posted - 2015.07.13 08:20:33 -
[6] - Quote
I hear a lot of good things about ore buyback programs.
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2260
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Posted - 2015.07.13 10:10:07 -
[7] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:As soon as you find fhe way of cheap source of materials required to produce goodies you are on the right path.
If you buying ore/minerals from market, then you should find the right goodies to produes in the first line which grant you a small but constant income and then you could spread it out. Don't forget about skills/implants. Except even if you get the materials cheaper than market, you still have to calculate using market value to decide if you should just sell the materials instead.
But basically A: some people can't do the right maths. And B: Some items are old stockpiles which had reduced minerals or something to build.
Just build something else. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3059
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Posted - 2015.07.13 10:19:47 -
[8] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:As soon as you find fhe way of cheap source of materials required to produce goodies you are on the right path.
If you buying ore/minerals from market, then you should find the right goodies to produes in the first line which grant you a small but constant income and then you could spread it out. Don't forget about skills/implants. Except even if you get the materials cheaper than market, you still have to calculate using market value to decide if you should just sell the materials instead. But basically A: some people can't do the right maths. And B: Some items are old stockpiles which had reduced minerals or something to build. Just build something else.
Or more simply, opportunity cost.
Some people just don't get opportunity cost. You should buy their stuff at the reduced price, hold and resell at the higher price.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
869
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Posted - 2015.07.13 10:25:56 -
[9] - Quote
Lower your production costs by stealing ore from MTUs and jetcans. If you get a sudden boost of 50k ore you know you are doing it right. Though I admit that I don't mine for isk (silly idea anyway) and don't care about productiom costs at all. Undercutting everything is a nice way to mess with people.
TSHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
14625
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Posted - 2015.07.13 11:28:08 -
[10] - Quote
I mine my ore hence it's free
Or maybe I'm just dumping the market on purpose...
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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Nortion Adoulin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.07.13 11:45:41 -
[11] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I mine my ore hence it's free Or maybe I'm just dumping the market on purpose...
No its not FREE!
If your making products and selling them for little more than the cost of the materials used to make them then you may as well just sell the ore and stop wasting your time and isk building things for next to no profit. You could be doing other more profitable things insetad. |
Lulu Lunette
Custodes Olim United Systems of Aridia
54
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Posted - 2015.07.13 11:46:31 -
[12] - Quote
I've recently also figured out that people must mine or gather the materials 'for free'
@lunettelulu7
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
170
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Posted - 2015.07.13 12:02:37 -
[13] - Quote
Nortion Adoulin wrote:No its not FREE!
Congrats on falling for a Chribba troll. I think it's a safe bet to say that Chribba knows what the **** when it comes to minerals.
I think, the main problem here is, that the market for Mantis Fighter Bombers isn't all that big. Only Super-Pilots will ever need them, and they will probably get their Fighter Bombers from the same person they get their Super from. And once they have them, they don't lose them all that often. And there are 3 (4) more Fighter Bombers, and I suppose Mantisises aren't used all that often, all I ever seem to see are Tyrfing. |
Jack Morrison
Manson Family Advent of Fate
233
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Posted - 2015.07.13 12:13:09 -
[14] - Quote
Another example - liquid ozone. Guess it's not worth that much in a trade hub. You go to a lowsec system with a hisec connection near Jita - oh and suddenly people might wanna buy your stuff for a markup of 200-300%.
Ammo - same here, might be more worth more selling it in a mission running hub.
Looking for a group to pew with ? Have a chat with me.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1865
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Posted - 2015.07.13 12:15:10 -
[15] - Quote
There are a heap of ways to cut costs, one is to have an alt with max skills, max implant and a POS to refine ores.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow
Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
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Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
291
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Posted - 2015.07.13 12:19:30 -
[16] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:I hear a lot of good things about ore buyback programs. Yeah a lot of hisec bear indy corps basically enlsave newbros and have them sell their ore to corp buyback programs where the ceo buys the ore for less than jita value then just haul it to jita themselves and sell for real jita value |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
14627
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Posted - 2015.07.13 12:46:41 -
[17] - Quote
Nortion Adoulin wrote:Chribba wrote:I mine my ore hence it's free Or maybe I'm just dumping the market on purpose... No its not FREE! If your making products and selling them for little more than the cost of the materials used to make them then you may as well just sell the ore and stop wasting your time and isk building things for next to no profit. You could be doing other more profitable things insetad. I can assure you, that the ore I mine is free regardless of me selling the end item for 5 million or 25 million, and regardless of its "actual" market value. You're just suggesting I could do other things that are more profitable, that still doesn't change the fact that the ore is free to me (as time is not a cost for me).
So whilst I mine things and sell them for less the value of the unrefined ore, then content of what I sold is just as free as if I would make profit from it - it might be silly and stupid way to do things, and maybe a waste of time - but it's still free so...
And while a waste of time and perhaps inefficient it's a nice way to dump markets for whatever the reasons may be
/c
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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Divine Entervention
The Retired Officers Club
541
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:03:16 -
[18] - Quote
Ore isn't free.
Time = money. If you spend any time mining ore, then that ore has a time cost. |
Conar
My Wormhole Hurts
20
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:22:24 -
[19] - Quote
".....Or more simply, opportunity cost."
I too have been the piano player banging his head trying to figure this out. I have decided to take a different approach to explain this behavior.
Perhaps the loss of isk is balanced with the enjoyment of production/sale of the item. Clicking the "Deliver" button on a production and/or waking up in the morning to see all of the items put on the market have been sold.
After all, that is why we are all here in the first place. The enjoyment of production/sale is greater then the isk lost.
My 1.5 cents
Conar 07
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2008
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:27:04 -
[20] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Ore isn't free.
Time = money. If you spend any time mining ore, then that ore has a time cost.
The guy mines with dreads and titans. Do you really think he gives a damn about the time cost of his mining antics? |
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Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
884
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:33:27 -
[21] - Quote
It's funny to see people trying to argue with the lord of mining himself, who probably has more money made for free than they will ever posess. I share his standpoint. It costs me time only, m'mining for income is stupid anyway and dumping prices is fun. :D
TSHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Divine Entervention
The Retired Officers Club
541
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:35:23 -
[22] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Ore isn't free.
Time = money. If you spend any time mining ore, then that ore has a time cost. The guy mines with dreads and titans. Do you really think he gives a damn about the time cost of his mining antics?
What he thinks doesn't dictate reality. |
Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
884
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:45:52 -
[23] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Ore isn't free.
Time = money. If you spend any time mining ore, then that ore has a time cost. The guy mines with dreads and titans. Do you really think he gives a damn about the time cost of his mining antics? What he thinks doesn't dictate reality. Reality is that time is a cost that's ignorable when you don't care about income. As fun is more important than income, building 300 catalysts and selling them 300k below par, ruining the prices for everyone else is far more valueable!
TSHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2009
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:47:53 -
[24] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Ore isn't free.
Time = money. If you spend any time mining ore, then that ore has a time cost. The guy mines with dreads and titans. Do you really think he gives a damn about the time cost of his mining antics? What he thinks doesn't dictate reality.
What you think does not change how his reality is. If he mines and build for his personal enjoyment and decide to sell under market cost, there is fuckall you can say to change it because at the end of the day, his activity is still ISK positive for him. People talk about opportunity cost but always fail to realise there is a **** ton of people more than happy to sell at a reduced profit just to not have to deal with the ball-ache of playing the market. This kind of stuff is not for everyone and selling generating ISK at a not perfect rate still keep me in ships so why the hell would I care if someone might flip my products? Once it leave my possession, IDGAF what happen with the items because I burned the ISK on some stupid **** already anyway.
But but, your opportunity cost Frostys!! Did you think of all the dank ISK you could of gotten if you optimised X, Y and Z in your process?
What about the opportunity cost in FUN of learning and applying all this stuff to the process? Can't I play a game just to enjoy myself and not care about maximising everything?
Ore like most basic materials is "free" if you want to consider it free. The marketeer can ***** and moan about dunking the market all they want, people selling under price won't care. |
Divine Entervention
The Retired Officers Club
541
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:48:30 -
[25] - Quote
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Ore isn't free.
Time = money. If you spend any time mining ore, then that ore has a time cost. The guy mines with dreads and titans. Do you really think he gives a damn about the time cost of his mining antics? What he thinks doesn't dictate reality. Reality is that time is a cost that's ignorable when you don't care about income. As fun is more important than income, building 300 catalysts and selling them 300k below par, ruining the prices for everyone else is far more valueable!
Not caring about the time spent doesn't negate it. It may not cost as much, but it's still got a cost. |
Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
885
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:54:11 -
[26] - Quote
He does care though. You are so fixated on the money part, you are forgetting that there's much more to it.
TSHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
591
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Posted - 2015.07.13 13:56:47 -
[27] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Not caring about the time spent doesn't negate it. It may not cost as much, but it's still got a cost. Chribba is unaware of space-time, especially when it comes to mining. He's been known to be locked into a rigid stance whilst mining, so much so, that it requires the use of a crowbar, some vaseline and maybe a mention that there is some arkanor in some nearby system to actually get him to move.
Also, Chribba is rich enough that he has "Yes" money. (i.e. you ask how much it cost to buy, the reply will be "Yes") It still doesn't matter to him.
"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
14631
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Posted - 2015.07.13 15:44:55 -
[28] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Not caring about the time spent doesn't negate it. It may not cost as much, but it's still got a cost. Where would you draw the line though? We could see "time" as a cost, and it will vary for both of us how much that time is worth, for you it may be much for me it may be little, so then we're just nitpicking a word here.
As for example if I asked you if you wanted item X and you say yes - then even that isn't free, because you've had spent a few seconds pondering if you wanted item X, and perhaps a few seconds more accepting a contract of the item, and perhaps a few minutes more picking up that item because it was a few jumps away.
But I'm pretty sure that when your corp mate asks how much you paid for it, you will still say it was free and not saying "oh well I had to spend a few seconds thinking about it and then some to accept the contract and of course let's not forget those minutes it took me to pick it up" - you'd say you got it for free - even if it costed you time. Time that in your eyes wasn't really a cost...
Hence the ore I mine is free*.
/c
*Free comes with a cost of time, a variable that is highly individual and carry no set number or value
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2304
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Posted - 2015.07.13 15:55:49 -
[29] - Quote
There sure are a lot of people who love to throw "Time is money" around without thinking about it. |
DaReaper
Net 7
2353
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Posted - 2015.07.13 16:10:29 -
[30] - Quote
you see this int he T3 market. a lot of subsystems are sold at a 'loss' because the stuff i salvaged or mined is free. Many electronics subsystems are sold for less then it cost to buy the two nanoribbons to make, because again, the nano ribbons i got form sleepers are 'free' so i can undercut the guy who bought the nano's
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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