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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
328
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Posted - 2015.07.14 00:07:06 -
[1] - Quote
Just going to leave this here for your viewing pleasure: 2b Isk / h
Posted the same to reddit
C5/C6 are broken and things need to change. I'm not in favor of removing capital escalations, as I've pointed out before - they are a great conflict driver - but seeing as high-class wormholes have now completely deteriorated into glorious farming lands, CCP needs to make some drastic changes. And they need to do it soon.
What changes, you ask: I see multiple options. The first, the more realistic option (something CCP would/could actually implement) is:
Heavily intertwine C5/C6 through adding a second static.
Less realistic, but probably more sensible:
2.) Merge C5 and C6 space and shrink it down to 300-400 systems.
3.) Remove capital escalations from C5 space and add some more C6 systems.
By now you probably wonder what kind of drugs I am on. Be honest to yourself though, high-class wormhole space is focked so hard right now, stuff has to happen. |
Zekora Rally
Negative Density Whatever.
20
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Posted - 2015.07.14 00:16:50 -
[2] - Quote
This was happening when high class wh pvp was booming so how exactly is any of this different? |
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
561
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Posted - 2015.07.14 00:16:58 -
[3] - Quote
sssuuuree bring more Dev attention to wormholes. . because it worked so well last time they remembered wormholes existed and made changes.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
328
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Posted - 2015.07.14 00:25:01 -
[4] - Quote
Zekora Rally wrote:This was happening when high class wh pvp was booming so how exactly is any of this different?
I'm just trying to make a point. Sure, it was happening before C5/C6 went all stale ...
Iyokus Patrouette wrote:sssuuuree bring more Dev attention to wormholes. . because it worked so well last time they remembered wormholes existed and made changes.
Heh you may have a point. Sorry about making a fuss and all
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Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
502
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Posted - 2015.07.14 01:22:24 -
[5] - Quote
I'm always confused as to why someone who lives in a 5-3 and doesn't really do much PVP is suggesting changes to higher class wormholes. Sure, you bring up good points, but when there are people like you that just bear in holes with low class statics and don't PVP, are you really surprised?
You're right, stuff does have to happen to high class space. People who actually want to PVP and not just farm need to move in. It's a culture problem, not a mechanics problem. It's not a surprise that corps with good, active PVPers willing to put the effort in are still finding content all over wormhole space.
Having said all that, I would love dual statics in C5 and C6 space. I don't think it will provide much of an activity boost though. |
J3rz11
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
135
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Posted - 2015.07.14 01:23:52 -
[6] - Quote
Braxus Deninard wrote:I'm always confused as to why someone who lives in a 5-3 and doesn't really do much PVP is suggesting changes to higher class wormholes. Sure, you bring up good points, but when there are people like you that just bear in holes with low class statics and don't PVP, are you really surprised?
You're right, stuff does have to happen to high class space. People who actually want to PVP and not just farm need to move in. It's a culture problem, not a mechanics problem. It's not a surprise that corps with good, active PVPers willing to put the effort in are still finding content all over wormhole space.
Having said all that, I would love dual statics in C5 and C6 space. I don't think it will provide much of an activity boost though.
^ this
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Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
502
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Posted - 2015.07.14 01:30:54 -
[7] - Quote
More thoughts - I've just never understood the whole nerf capital escalation money to force people to PVP mentality. It's such a simplistic view to hold.
Anyone who actually wants to PVP already does it. If you really care about PVPing, you just do it. Why do people seem to think that nerfing income will force people to PVP? If you nerf income the farmers will either just farm for longer to make the same money, or move out of w-space completely, rendering it even more empty. |
ISD Supogo
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
502
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Posted - 2015.07.14 01:38:20 -
[8] - Quote
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.
ISD Supogo
Lieutenant Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Jonn Duune
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve WormHole Occupation and Resource Exploitation
8
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Posted - 2015.07.14 02:03:25 -
[9] - Quote
Braxus Deninard wrote:More thoughts - I've just never understood the whole nerf capital escalation money to force people to PVP mentality. It's such a simplistic view to hold.
Anyone who actually wants to PVP already does it. If you really care about PVPing, you just do it. Why do people seem to think that nerfing income will force people to PVP? If you nerf income the farmers will either just farm for longer to make the same money, or move out of w-space completely, rendering it even more empty.
To be fair, lots of corps like us do capital escalations to fund our PVP. I think most of the big WH corps work this way too. |
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
502
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Posted - 2015.07.14 02:09:37 -
[10] - Quote
Jonn Duune wrote:Braxus Deninard wrote:More thoughts - I've just never understood the whole nerf capital escalation money to force people to PVP mentality. It's such a simplistic view to hold.
Anyone who actually wants to PVP already does it. If you really care about PVPing, you just do it. Why do people seem to think that nerfing income will force people to PVP? If you nerf income the farmers will either just farm for longer to make the same money, or move out of w-space completely, rendering it even more empty. To be fair, lots of corps like us do capital escalations to fund our PVP. I think most of the big WH corps work this way too.
That's exactly my point, there's two different types of groups. Corps like you guys do home sites and spend a couple of hours doing it, but then the majority of time is spent on PVP, rolling chains and hunting targets. For PVP groups that cap escalate, the ISK funds PVP for the members of the corp.
The problem is groups that capital escalate and then simply don't PVP at all, or make very little effort to find any content. No nerf to capital escalations is ever going to fix that. It's an attitude problem. |
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Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
562
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Posted - 2015.07.14 02:29:05 -
[11] - Quote
Do you see. . . do you see what you've done... RIP Wormholes.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
85
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Posted - 2015.07.14 02:58:08 -
[12] - Quote
It's 2015, and with all the info/guides out there about how to bear, you are still clueless. Congrats on your first site.
~lvl 60 paladin~
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1299
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Posted - 2015.07.14 03:16:46 -
[13] - Quote
Braxus Deninard wrote:
The problem is groups that capital escalate and then simply don't PVP at all, or make very little effort to find any content. No nerf to capital escalations is ever going to fix that. It's an attitude problem.
The problem is caring about how someone else plays Eve and not taking in-game steps to fix it. If you do not like the fact that they do not PVP, then go force them to PVP. Eve gives you that right.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
198
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Posted - 2015.07.14 05:53:50 -
[14] - Quote
You do seem to forget that you can do that only once a day, in null,low and high you can keep doing sites for ever. And you need to be lucky to have sites in your wormhole. Sometimes you have weeks and months of only 3-5 sites in your home. Add to that the scanning, closing holes, ... So the number of isk/hour is actualy far below the number you mentioned. So at 5 sites you have 3 bil max you can earn that day. With 1 multiboxer or 20 people it stays the same. And then it is over for the day. Also add to the fact that when done a lot, you will not have lots of sites anyway. In null or low or even high incursions you can get isk without this time contraint. Also the cost to start it up is quite high, you seem to be forgetting that.
But i do agree the last few changes CCP did made it a lot safer also. Like the instant sig spawn, cycle time for caps from 10 to 5 minutes(triage/siege), wh spawn distance thingy(making it harder for predators to roll holes), less c5/c6 wh to null, and soon the fleet warp changes made it all the safer to farm. The fact that c6 space has been blue donuted also doesn't help. I do want pve with capitals be worth it, how else are you getting these things out of the pos shield in wh's so that you can catch them?
Don't like it, then you go hunting them, evict pve alliances not pvp alliances.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
Fleet warp proposal = the rubix cube is back into eve especialy the second part of the saying.
Wh players need to adapt, null sec players get the rules changed.
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Ben Ishikela
50
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Posted - 2015.07.14 06:46:24 -
[15] - Quote
WH is too safe. Of course there is some risk that a new wh shows up during siegecycle and an enemy gang comes in just the right time. How often does this happen? Can someone farm another dread in that time between? of course. Also for the little roaming guy that does these sites once in a while, its scary and well so. But if you have a (fueled-)pos, you are safer than anywhere else (unless you completely **** up in diplomacy). WH collapse around 24h and a reinforce timer is more than that. So a serious attacker would have to stay. I saw this happen, but the opportunity-cost is very high.
Also the escalation step is too big. putting an alt into a bearWH to disrupt their bearing as first part of your aggression. then the next thing you can do is full eviction. There is not much in between. Its an effort of days to get enough dreads in. So in the end, its way more efficient to just spread out and farm, instead of disrupting the pve-activity of others.
I am looking forward to the introduction of the new structures and the removal of POS. Maybe, jsut maybe, there is this feature that capitals in WH are very vulnerable. That a little subcap force is able to cause damage. Also i hope there will be more decisions possible on whether and how much an aggressor wants to commit to doing damage. The gains from the dropped Loot of "stations" should be able to compensate for the time not spend on pve. So please balance that part!
If piracy is more profitable than farming, the players are more actively engaged. <- right? (see gatecamps i.e.) But that does sadly not appy for WH. Ergo its a bug in the "risk vs. reward" thingy.
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
917
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Posted - 2015.07.14 06:48:05 -
[16] - Quote
Braxus Deninard wrote:That's exactly my point, there's two different types of groups. Corps like you guys do home sites and spend a couple of hours doing it, but then the majority of time is spent on PVP, rolling chains and hunting targets. For PVP groups that cap escalate, the ISK funds PVP for the members of the corp.
The problem is groups that capital escalate and then simply don't PVP at all, or make very little effort to find any content. No nerf to capital escalations is ever going to fix that. It's an attitude problem. I think those farmers must spend those ISK somewhere though. And I doubt it's for hoarding PLEX or something, you can hoard **** and don't use it for so much before you stop caring and leave. |
Ben Ishikela
50
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Posted - 2015.07.14 07:10:38 -
[17] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: So at 5 sites you have 3 bil max you can earn that day. With 1 multiboxer or 20 people it stays the same. And then it is over for the day.
Work. come home. do sites. scan the chain for targets. go to bed. So thats 4-6hours per day maximum (health?). and with that downtime-reset its doable nearly every day. so the worker cant do more than this in nullsec in that 4h. so there is no difference in how often per day sites are available. Only that the spawnrate caps/effects the number of people that can live in one place in some way: Spread out into multiple wh and the isk per person increases. Running the sites with less players is a challenge with great profit .... and that incentifies an antisocial environment. That and the thing that (IF having limited time) looting others is less profitable than doing pve yourself. ==> --- "In comparison 0.0 is in a very good shape." lol
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1301
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Posted - 2015.07.14 10:02:58 -
[18] - Quote
Ben Ishikela wrote:That and the thing that (IF having limited time) looting others is less profitable than doing pve yourself. ==>
If there are people currently playing Eve who would rather run PVE sites than go kill someone else who is multi-boxing Capital ships, that is just fine by me. They sound like great targets.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
267
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Posted - 2015.07.14 17:10:46 -
[19] - Quote
31st post today stating basically: i dont like someone elses game play style so please nerf it.
No. They are risking getting blasted and runnning mulitiple accounts they should make more profit for both reasons.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
199
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Posted - 2015.07.14 19:52:19 -
[20] - Quote
Ben Ishikela wrote:Work. come home. do sites. scan the chain for targets. go to bed. So thats 4-6hours per day maximum (health?). and with that downtime-reset its doable nearly every day. so the worker cant do more than this in nullsec in that 4h. so there is no difference in how often per day sites are available. Only that the spawnrate caps/effects the number of people that can live in one place in some way: Spread out into multiple wh and the isk per person increases. Running the sites with less players is a challenge with great profit .... and that incentifies an antisocial environment. That and the thing that (IF having limited time) looting others is less profitable than doing pve yourself. ==> --- "In comparison 0.0 is in a very good shape." lol Well if you do the sites with 10 people(see capital escalation guides), then you have 300 mil each day for every one. And the rest of the corp/alliance can have any of it... . And that for 4 days, and then you need to hope some sites respawn. Also there is a 10 bil entrance fee to have the proper ships to do this. In null an ishtar and a carrier suffice.
But i do agree that we need more tools and or people trying to kill the farmers. There are some i named that got nerfed. There used to be a good tool, pve kill numbers you could get with the api, but that was removed by ccp. Now you need someone to observe the possible targets for a long time to be able to assertain when they will start farming. Maybe to lessen the impact of this we rather should concentrace on thinking of new way to be able to kill the farmers.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
Fleet warp proposal = the rubix cube is back into eve especialy the second part of the saying.
Wh players need to adapt, null sec players get the rules changed.
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1503
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Posted - 2015.07.14 21:11:31 -
[21] - Quote
You don't need to observe for very long honestly. You can tell who mostly farms and those who pew.
It's a bit too convenient to be able to collapse or crit your hole and close off every entrance. To kill farmers who do that, you have to either roll into them, and find their fleet with a bubbler ready to go (rage roll), or a log off trap where you log in their hole.
There has been a few proposals on the wspace forums regarding possible options, ranging from wormhole highway of interconnected shattered wormholes to moving c5 and c6 capital escalations into shattered space, and a massive mass wormhole to attack to c5 and 6s to give them a capital highway to go through in shattered space (so escalations can be run without rolling your hole because 3 caps went through.). It would function very similarly to how c2 space runs (they want ISk they farm their static).
Do people who farm regularly want this? No it's more work and more risk and it opens up their home to more risk also. Those who don't bother with capital escalations on a nightly basis.. Dunno. I'd love to have a viable roam able wspace area where people risk ships to obtain loot, vs people closing their hole and farming in shame.
Yaay!!!!
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E1ev1n
Unknown Crusade
4
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Posted - 2015.07.14 23:44:04 -
[22] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Ben Ishikela wrote:Work. come home. do sites. scan the chain for targets. go to bed. So thats 4-6hours per day maximum (health?). and with that downtime-reset its doable nearly every day. so the worker cant do more than this in nullsec in that 4h. so there is no difference in how often per day sites are available. Only that the spawnrate caps/effects the number of people that can live in one place in some way: Spread out into multiple wh and the isk per person increases. Running the sites with less players is a challenge with great profit .... and that incentifies an antisocial environment. That and the thing that (IF having limited time) looting others is less profitable than doing pve yourself. ==> --- "In comparison 0.0 is in a very good shape." lol Well if you do the sites with 10 people(see capital escalation guides), then you have 300 mil each day for every one. And the rest of the corp/alliance can have any of it... . And that for 4 days, and then you need to hope some sites respawn. Also there is a 10 bil entrance fee to have the proper ships to do this. In null an ishtar and a carrier suffice. But i do agree that we need more tools and or people trying to kill the farmers. There are some i named that got nerfed. There used to be a good tool, pve kill numbers you could get with the api, but that was removed by ccp. Now you need someone to observe the possible targets for a long time to be able to assertain when they will start farming. Maybe to lessen the impact of this we rather should concentrace on thinking of new way to be able to kill the farmers. Just to help your argument an 80 mil isk Vexor Navy Issue (fully fit) in null will suffice plus another for each alt you are multiboxing. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
741
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Posted - 2015.07.15 01:32:29 -
[23] - Quote
E1ev1n wrote:...Just to help your argument an 80 mil isk Vexor Navy Issue (fully fit) in null will suffice plus another for each alt you are multiboxing.
Wormhole income is a little.. let's say different than running anomalies in null
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Cannibal Zuza
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.07.15 06:06:27 -
[24] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote:Just going to leave this here for your viewing pleasure: 2b Isk / hPosted the same to reddit C5/C6 are broken and things need to change. I'm not in favor of removing capital escalations, as I've pointed out before - they are a great conflict driver - but seeing as high-class wormholes have now completely deteriorated into glorious farming lands, CCP needs to make some drastic changes. And they need to do it soon. What changes, you ask: I see multiple options. The first, the more realistic option (something CCP would/could actually implement) is: Heavily intertwine C5/C6 through adding a second static. Less realistic, but probably more sensible: 2.) Merge C5 and C6 space and shrink it down to 300-400 systems. 3.) Remove capital escalations from C5 space and add some more C6 systems. By now you probably wonder what kind of drugs I am on. Be honest to yourself though, high-class wormhole space is focked so hard right now, stuff has to happen.
You must really hate your corp mates if you're going this far to provoke someones to pay you a visit. While your at it you might as well provide the nearest systems to your whereabouts to help speed up the eviction process. |
Tragot Gomndor
Vision Inc Hole Control
65
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Posted - 2015.07.15 08:10:23 -
[25] - Quote
Guuuys guuuys, stop the fighting. We all (should) know the problem in wormholes. Its not the highclass PVPers, maybe their summer inactivity but thats every year. Its the highclass renters. Renters, in our space, those have to be crushed. Like they have to be crushed in all of eve. Get into their systems, disrupt all their pve, drop bubbles at important locations, disrupt, disrupt, disrupt. Dont annoy pvper, they give content. Annoy the renter farmers and their overlords.
NONONONONONO
TO
CAPS IN HIGHSEC
NO
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1305
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Posted - 2015.07.15 09:31:10 -
[26] - Quote
It is sad to read about how WH space appears to be turning into something more like null sec space, where elite groups farm renters and run those unwilling to bend the knee out of their space. Such is the nature of the sandbox, however...
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Anthar Thebess
1226
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Posted - 2015.07.15 12:20:42 -
[27] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:It is sad to read about how WH space appears to be turning into something more like null sec space, where elite groups farm renters and run those unwilling to bend the knee out of their space. Such is the nature of the sandbox, however... Yes blobs are something normal in WH now. Lets hope that Difters will change this.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Bleedingthrough
Project AIice
172
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Posted - 2015.07.15 12:41:26 -
[28] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: No. They are risking getting blasted and runnning mulitiple accounts they should make more profit for both reasons.
I donGÇÖt think it is as simple as that. The real problem is that capital escalations only work well for farmers and therefor you only see farmers in C5+ space.
It is an antisocial mechanic that does not create any content compared to the ISK generated. If you are serious about making the most of your C5+ home you are forced to lock yourself in for 4 consecutive nights. Even if you are able to run sites in a single cycle that will still be 2+h less PvP and if you are less efficient at PvE you spend the night with nothing but ratting. Any PvPer in your group will hate that and those are the ones that matter.
Farmers risk virtually nothing compared to what they gain. (DonGÇÖt argue that. This is fact.) In the example given by the OP he would at most lose a single cap. Even an eviction would not hurt a competent farmer much ISK wise. He would lose a stick. That is all. Logistics are a different story though. Realistically, removing farmers from C5+ space is just a too boring activity to be an option. Maybe new POS mechanics will change that.
Anyone wanting to PvP in C5+ space risks way more. Unlike farmers they have and need way more assets in their WH than they could hope to extract if **** hits the fan. And there are lots of PvP groups that could evict you if you pissed them off or they are bored enough and unlike killing farmers they could actually get content out of this.
A developing and content oriented group that moves into C5+ with C5+ static space is basically ******. You donGÇÖt get to field your big toys unless you outnumber them anyways because mass based spawn distance and the nice income from capital escalations will **** your PvPers off. There are not many targets around anyways. It is not uncommon to probe 5+ WHs deep only to find offline farmers. There has always been content from null connections in C5 space, so this was still a somewhat acceptable situation. Recent patch might even have destroyed that content.
In general, I donGÇÖt think too much or too few ISK is the problem, the problem is lack of content C5+ space intrinsically generates. I would love to fight awesome groups like HK but you never catch GÇÿem with their pants down. I feel that this is becoming more and more a numbers gameGǪ ping ping, convo friends, roll roll, Mexican standoffGǪ donGÇÖt like that. But hey, maybe thatGÇÖs just me.
/#TLTR Yes, I think capital escalations is bad game design and needs to be replaced by something that favors active groups and generates content.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5305080#post5305080
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Lokar Griman
New Eden Cultural Exchange Advent of Fate
14
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Posted - 2015.07.15 14:11:14 -
[29] - Quote
Wow so much crying about not abel too kill defencless capitals ,huurrdurrdurr how sad. Guess what first off all youl never get near a proper pve fleet you have scout that has probes on stand by , and dcanning all times. So they already have headsup , next thing would be sending dictors an hics to try slow down anything from going after capitals,, plus by that time the 3-4 lokis that were pveing already swaped to pvp ships , and try stop you so, yea... gl getting capital kills. Yeah probably youl get multiboxer pants down but eve proper multiboxer will have an defence plan ready incasr crap starts to drop on hin. |
Lokar Griman
New Eden Cultural Exchange Advent of Fate
14
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Posted - 2015.07.15 14:30:31 -
[30] - Quote
And no capital esc should not be nerfed, you do that you will kill pvp cotent, especisly those rich who will bring out shiny ships and fits. And noone will pvp against superior numbers if knows that they will get slautherd. |
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