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Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.15 22:11:59 -
[1] - Quote
We are a (very) small hedge fund of sorts currently based in Jita 4-4. We primarily make money at the moment via station trading, though we might start haulling after we finish developing some proprietary software.
We sell shares in groups of 10 for 10 mil. If you want to pull out, we will buy shares back at 1m a piece (full price). We've only been operating for around a week so far, so we can't make any guarantees about our rate or return yet, though we seem on track to make around 1mil per share every two months. However, this is still tentative because of how new we are.
We currently have 9 investors and a principal of around 500 mil.
Yes, I know selling shares and issuing profits as dividends is stupid, I might change the system in the future--but it works well for right now.
Let me know if you're interested in investing! :)
Probably not a scamGäó. |
Rilati Kansene
Monte Inc
25
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 23:02:56 -
[2] - Quote
So: 1M per share Estimated return of 1M per share every 2 months
The suspense of waiting months would literally kill me - I can either get my ISK doubled or not in less than 10 minutes elsewhere.
(more srs): If you are interested in opening your books and can operate for a while showing a consistent profit, I'd be willing to invest... Also srs: Please provide some detail on the 'we' part - who are your co-operators, how are you structured, who has access to the wallets, how can I trust them more than I trust you ?? |
jam pan
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 23:40:11 -
[3] - Quote
I gave this guy 10 mill less than a week ago (as insert name john) because I was in Jita and figured what the hell, 10 mill is nothing. I've since gotten at least one dividend of 550k. So so far, not total scam it seems. But who knows. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
622
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Posted - 2015.07.16 00:09:12 -
[4] - Quote
I'd be interested in hearing more about your plans for hauling and what your proprietary software will do.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
251
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Posted - 2015.07.16 00:39:05 -
[5] - Quote
Now this is an IPO I like! But lets address a few things first. What's your debt cap (max shares in circulation). 50% interest a month doesn't seem sustainable, but I like that you've left it variable. Stating a more specific formula from which you'll base interest is more attractive. I obviously favor an roi derived from a percentage of the business' profits. clear up the buy back process too, when, how much notice, withdraw limit, what happens if business defaults or experiences insolvency.how will you make new shares? When will you? What percent of the business' NAV will shares make up?
I love shares based ipos, but you need to address these details. Otherwise offering a 50% return each month just makes me think you're that one guy that just posted .(dot) 40% return ipo. I dont invest in dots....
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.16 01:35:26 -
[6] - Quote
Alright! Thanks for your responses everyone. :)
A few points to clarify: 1) The operation for the most part is just me right now. When I was saying "we" I was using the royal we :P However, I do have a few others that I may bring in if I raise more money than I can manage myself--right now we just have 500 mil so I am able to pretty consistently turn a profit, however if the sum gets way bigger I may be unable to effectively manage it so I'll bring in a few friends.
It's worth noting that because I'm selling shares, I'm going to be the only member of the corporation itself--since if someone else is a member of the corp, they can potentially hijack control. In order to bring in friends, I will found a second corporation using an alt. that will be owned in full by my corp. That way, control cannot be taken from me in either corp. and the second corporation can have other members to manage certain parts of the balance. Again, this is purely hypothetical at the moment and I may come up with a better idea before actions along this line become necessary.
2) I currently have 5000 shares issued (which equals 5 bil. total capital). While I have the ability to take control over a majority of the shares, I only keep 50 shares in my wallet because I've only invested 50 mil of my personal assets. When I issue a dividend, the unsold shares' profits get returned to the corporation and I increase the principal proportionally. As for issuing additional shares, what I've done so far is "split" the stock--so everyone maintains their percentage.
This has a few problems: primarily that this favors new investors over old investors and substantially limits future growth. I have two solutions I'm toying with at the moment: a) issue more shares but keep them solely for raising new investments--effectively decreasing existing investors' future profits or b) stop issuing dividends and instead use stocks simply as an indication of investment. Profits will be distributed algorithmically based off of the amount of shares you own not the percentage of shares you own. Neither solution really seems ideal at the moment and I'm not at a point where such a switch seems necessary. I am actively exploring additional solutions and ways I can make a smooth transition into a new system if it occurs.
3) I wish I could make a better guarantee on profits, or have an algorithm or something. The way I've been doing it so far is at the end of every day, I calculate the total value of the corporation (including unsold assets) and any profit over the principal will be given out as a dividend. The corporation owns about 70% of the stock, so that percentage of the dividend gets returned to the corporation. After issuing a dividend, I recalculate the value of the corporation and set that as the new principal. Profits made from this new base price will be issued the next day. There have been days when I don't have enough liquid assets to issue the appropriate dividend, so then I waited until I had enough and issued it the next day.
This system has worked out pretty well so far, and I will probably continue it for at least a few weeks. Once I get a better idea of how much I make, I will be able to give a better estimate.
4) At least right now, the buyback guarantee is that I will buy back an investor's shares for the amount they spent (i.e. if I split the shares in two, I will not buy them back for twice the original investment). This guarantee is only made for the original investor, and I will do my best to fulfill it as soon as possible--I will guarantee that I will have the funds within 24 hours of acknowledging a request, but it will most likely be sooner. If someone who was not the original investor wants me to buy back their shares, I will try to buy them back at full price but I cannot make any guarantees.
5) The proprietary software I'm developing will stream data from EMDR and try and find the most profitable routes within a set of constraints factoring in a variety of things including jumps, security, volume, etc. It is still very much in its infancy so I can't really say anything else about it yet. If it works well, I may consider licensing it to other corporations.
6) Finally, on the matter of trust. I'm not quite sure as to how opening one's books works. If anyone has a reliable site, please let me know and I may explore it. As long as not too many details of the operation are revealed, I will be happy to let everyone take a look. It's worth noting that you really have no reason to trust me--I'm still very new to EVE and my corporation is even newer. However, over the past week, I have consistently turned a profit and hopefully be able to continue to do so.
I hope that clears things up. If there are any inconsistencies with what I just said, or you have any other questions please let me know and I will try to clear things up. For now assume that this post supercedes any other statements I've issued elsewhere. I look forward to future interactions with all involved parties :) |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
251
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Posted - 2015.07.16 02:00:44 -
[7] - Quote
It will be much easier for you to switch to a bimonthly NAV estimation and dividend payout. MD favors monthly schedules. As far as the roi: I set my roi at 12.5 of my monthly profits paid as the dividend to maximum shares in circulation. I like profit based since it allows for 0% returns and helps to prevents dividend payment defaults. Saying that original purchasers of your shares will be able to sell back their shares to you at full price is great, saying that post primary purchasers wont get that guarantee lowers the attractiveness of your shares. My clients have traded their shares with each other for more than I would buy them back, and was one of my goals. Encouraging this behavior will increase the attractiveness of your shares. Owning less than 50% of your copra shares will not allow you to force approve any share expansions, since anyone with a share can vote yes or no during an expansion vote. Consider always doubling the amount of shares you wish to put into circulation to be sure any votes cast dobt count except your own.
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Rilati Kansene
Monte Inc
29
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 10:15:54 -
[8] - Quote
Re: Pt6 API Keys and Trust
Have a look here; https://ccpcommunity.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/202428251-API-Key-Management And here: https://ccpcommunity.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/202669519-API-Overview-and-Key-Creation
And then do some more reading on the subject; know that I can't take anything or do anything to or from your character with an API key... But I can see 'stuff' about what your character is up to depending on which buttons you tick when you create the key. I'd be looking for you to select everything (all 4) in the Account and Market section, and then eveMail me the KeyID and Verification Code. (Don't post these here, Also don't do this until you have done a bit more reading and can understand what I can/can't do once I have them) +Check out my current thread on 'asking for ISK' some good advice is starting to roll in there. (And some notes on API checks/Audits when you don't have collateral to put up) I will plug them into jEveAssets ( - i.e subtle recommendation that given you aren't familiar with sharing info via API keys, that you first do this to yourself to see what I will see.) and I will be taking a look to make sure everything lines up such that I am happy you are on the right track to a) Not Scamming and b) Not doing silly things with your existing capital - if so, I'll happily move forward to funding your next trading expansion (some or all) - tho, also be sure to answer all of Koniforous's questions, and also be sure to ask if you don't know how to best answer.
Yes, I could use this information to then trade the exact same things as you, but if you are station trading primarily I'd have to be trading in the exact same timezone and in the exact same items... Can however just say that if I were station trading I'd be doing it with items that individually cost as much as your entire current bankroll - but there's the trust thing, you need to give a little to get some back.
Re: Pt5 Hop over to the technology forum If you need help developing your app, I don't think I've ever seen Steve /not/ give assistance, and you can always threaten to not vote for him if he doesn't help :) + there's also other friendly people on that forum...
Also presume you are aware that eve-Central has a tradefinder that in principle does the same'ish sort of thing that you are building - suggest tho, if you are looking at that whilst building your own, don't just use the trade finder, also use the system/region compare tool. |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
123
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 12:25:01 -
[9] - Quote
Make it monthly dividends and I will buy some.
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Plato Idari
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
25
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Posted - 2015.07.16 19:34:04 -
[10] - Quote
I'd be willing to give you 10 mil for 10 shares for the lols.
It seems to me like you're looking for angel investors; I'd be willing to consider up to a bil with more clarity on your long term share structure, verification either from myself or another MD member that you're trading well, and a little more rep grinding on these forums. |
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations
3081
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 19:42:20 -
[11] - Quote
Are we filling an uncollateralised loan for a first poster here MD ?
Fcking hell .... are we getting ballsy again after all?
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
124
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Posted - 2015.07.16 21:06:44 -
[12] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Are we filling an uncollateralised loan for a first poster here MD ? Fcking hell .... are we getting ballsy again after all? I am not sure that he set a cap, thus it cannot be filled :)
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Max Fubarticus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.07.16 23:29:22 -
[13] - Quote
Mr. Sommers,
Follow some of the excellent advice given here. And I will take some risk
This is a good thing...
1. Never fly what you are not willing to lose. same for Eve markets.
2. More savvy individuals who find the markets a challenge with out the need to scam.
3. Good solid trading skills and decisions = stable markets and returns.
Best of luck |
Jiyuu Sensei
Sensei's Geographic Science Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.07.16 23:49:49 -
[14] - Quote
Just confirming here that I bought 50 shares and received them. Let's see how this rolls out! |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
125
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Posted - 2015.07.17 06:07:41 -
[15] - Quote
Jiyuu Sensei wrote:Just confirming here that I bought 50 shares and received them. Let's see how this rolls out!
Edit: Received first divident. Invested 50m (50 shares) and got 1.5m as first payout. I don't get it, he mentions dividends is per two months, so why does it look like he pays them out every 2 hours?
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.17 06:25:58 -
[16] - Quote
Just a few clarifications. The situation with my corp as of right now is as follows: o 13 people, including me, have invested o I have around 800 mil o I don't have a fixed dividend schedule. The first few days I was giving out once a day. I think I'm going to be doing every other day for a little while, but I will be coming up with a fixed schedule at some point in the future o When I give out a dividend, I give out any difference in total worth (including items) from the amount I currently have listed as the principal. The corp owns around 70% of the shares, so 70% of the dividend goes back into the principal and I adjust the amount accordingly. The next dividend will be calculated from this amount. o I sell 10 shares for 10 mil. I have a guaranteed buyback at 1mil per share* from original investors, and if secondhand investors talk to me, I will probably give the same rate though if the finances don't allow it at the time I might not be able to. o There is no hard limit on investment, but as of right now I can only sell 1 bil more.
There are some problems with this current system, and some issues others have raised earlier that I am looking into. I will most likely be restructuring at some point in the coming weeks to create a more reliable business plan. What I've outlined above is how things work so far. I will both add a new post and update the original post when the situation changes. Note that if/when I restructure, I will contact each investor and ask them personally if they want to either pull out or invest in the new system.
Thanks to everyone who has invested so far. If anyone has any questions, feel free to contact me here or in game. --Morton Summers
*I split the stock earlier so if you have more shares than you orignially invested for, I can guarantee I will buyback your shares for the original investment, not necessarily for the outright amount of shares. |
Jiyuu Sensei
Sensei's Geographic Science Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.07.17 06:32:23 -
[17] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Jiyuu Sensei wrote:*snip* I don't get it, he mentions dividends is per two months, so why does it look like he pays them out every 2 hours?
I have no idea. First time I made any investment (because it didn't cost me billions which I don't have), and figured -- only 50 million, why not try this investment thing once. Later on in my EVE life I wanna get into this anyway!
I can't say anything about regular payments as I've only received one so far. So this could go two ways:
- OP is confused about his own payments, or is making more money than expected and wants to share some already to boost confidence.
- OP is giving out dividents right now to make it seem he's trustworthy so that more people will buy in. :D
EDIT: he beat me to it and posted at the same time. \o/ :D |
Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 06:49:16 -
[18] - Quote
By the way, Rilati Kansene, before I forget: I'm still looking into API keys. Once I'm confident I understand exactly what's going on I'll be happy to contact you with some information. |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
125
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 07:59:13 -
[19] - Quote
Ok I am curious. I have sent 50 mil for 50 shares.
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
254
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Posted - 2015.07.17 13:07:18 -
[20] - Quote
How will you keep track of secondhand investors? You should really guarantee the price of shares regardless of who originally purchased them from you. I dont see a reason why I would want to buy shares from someone other than you as they might be worthless since I would be secondhand investing. This will put greater strain on the solvency of your business because you will most likely be the sole source for cashing our. If you guarantee share price across the board however, share holders can cash out by selling to other pilots and this will reduce cash out strains month to month. Plus, there's no share journal to keep track of shares changing hands. Just current share holders.
I would also like to try this out, I will send 50mil tonight for 50shares
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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jam pan
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.07.17 16:23:12 -
[21] - Quote
I'm going to increase my investment, another 190m for 190 shares increasing my total to 200. I may not be online for a while, depending on how things go; I'll do my best to send isk asap. |
Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 21:32:56 -
[22] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:How will you keep track of secondhand investors? You should really guarantee the price of shares regardless of who originally purchased them from you. I dont see a reason why I would want to buy shares from someone other than you as they might be worthless since I would be secondhand investing. This will put greater strain on the solvency of your business because you will most likely be the sole source for cashing our. If you guarantee share price across the board however, share holders can cash out by selling to other pilots and this will reduce cash out strains month to month. Plus, there's no share journal to keep track of shares changing hands. Just current share holders.
Being able to make a guarantee of being able to buyback any shares is definitely high on my priority list. However, I split the stock earlier--which I now view as a mistake--and this makes me unable to guarantee a buyback. I'm exploring my options for how to resolve this and make it possible for a buyback price to be guaranteed.
I'm considering two options right now: 1) As I talked about earlier, performing a complete restructure--create a new corporation with the same name and transfer investments over. Stock would be reissued in amounts proportional to investment. I would contact each investor directly and give them the option to pull out or switch to the new corporation. This is attractive because it gives me a clean slate from which I can define a much more solid business plan. 2) Reduce the buyback guarantee to 550k--at 550k a share, I have enough to guarantee a buyback for all shares. This buyback amount would be increased as I increase the principle through trading until it theoretically would return to 1 mil at some point in the future.
I will not be implementing option 1 for at least a week regardless. I will implement option 2 if I feel that it is supported by most investors. If there is not support for implementing option 2, I will stick with the status quo: I will only buyback original investors' shares for the amount they paid.
In other news, I have issued shares for all Isk I have received so far. There are now 16 investors and the fund has a net worth of around 1.05 billion. |
Swaghetti
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.07.17 22:18:25 -
[23] - Quote
5) The proprietary software I'm developing will stream data from EMDR and try and find the most profitable routes within a set of constraints factoring in a variety of things including jumps, security, volume, etc. It is still very much in its infancy so I can't really say anything else about it yet. If it works well, I may consider licensing it to other corporations.
Eve central pretty much does that .. you tell it what system you wanna go from and were you wanna go .. How much cargo you have and how much profit you prefer per Jump/trip and it finds wich items you can turn profit hauling between those 2 points . |
Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 22:40:02 -
[24] - Quote
Swaghetti wrote:5) The proprietary software I'm developing will stream data from EMDR and try and find the most profitable routes within a set of constraints factoring in a variety of things including jumps, security, volume, etc. It is still very much in its infancy so I can't really say anything else about it yet. If it works well, I may consider licensing it to other corporations.
Eve central pretty much does that .. you tell it what system you wanna go from and were you wanna go .. How much cargo you have and how much profit you prefer per Jump/trip and it finds wich items you can turn profit hauling between those 2 points .
While there is definitely major overlap conceptually, if I can get my program to work* it will provide a much larger array of search tools. For instance, it will probably be able to factor in intermediate stops on a haul in order to maximize profit and also not necessarily require both an origin and a destination e.g. you should be able to ask it "find me the best trade route 20 jumps long starting and ending in jita with a cargohold of 100,000 m3 and an initial investment of 1 bil" and get meaningful results.
*Note that this program will take a long to time to complete which is why it is not my main source of revenue. It is a side project I'm working on for fun that could potentially result in profit at some point. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
254
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Posted - 2015.07.17 23:32:03 -
[25] - Quote
I dont understand what happened when you say you split the stock.... But starting over is perfectly fine. I am thinking about doing the same since I have 100,000 shares created, it makes paying dividends difficult as the roi increases. I've had to do it by hand a few times just because I didn't have 7 or 3bil in liquid isk. Learn from my mistake: Only create double the amount of shares you need, or expand into, keep 50% and put the rest into circulation.
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Rilati Kansene
Monte Inc
31
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Posted - 2015.07.18 03:15:28 -
[26] - Quote
Morton Summers wrote:By the way, Rilati Kansene, before I forget: I'm still looking into API keys. Once I'm confident I understand exactly what's going on I'll be happy to contact you with some information.
Um, API key was such that I could take a look and ensure you weren't a risk + a history of profitable trading and no indication of doing silly things with your ISK.
Seems like you have acquired some investors around these parts - so good luck with your future trading and other endeavors.
-Note - ISK doubling in Jita local definitely up there on the top of the list towards encouraging a very serious lack of enthusiasm from actual potential investors ..shrug..
http://pastebin.com/mgHBTkBC |
Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.18 03:38:04 -
[27] - Quote
Rilati Kansene wrote:-Note - ISK doubling in Jita local definitely up there on the top of the list towards encouraging a very serious lack of enthusiasm from actual potential investors ..shrug.. http://pastebin.com/mgHBTkBC
For the record, I wasn't scamming. I was playing a game with Mr L Shiyurida based solely in personal money as a way to kill time while orders came in. I occasionally through some of my personal money around as a form of entertainment. I have not, do not, and will not waste any money entrusted with me by others in such foolishness. I will be happy to verify this if anyone doubts me.
However, I understand this looks bad and if anyone wishes to pull their investment because of it I will honor my past commitments and buyback their shares at 1m a piece.
In other news, there are now 18 investors and a total of 1.3 bil in the corp. I have 390 more shares I am willing to sell after which I will not be selling more until I am confident I can maintain consistent profitability. |
vccv
65
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Posted - 2015.07.18 03:53:28 -
[28] - Quote
I think the next logical step should be to understand API key mgmt. It should be easy for someone able to create the software you are working on. I am very interested to see what you come up with. It would also serve to ease the nerves of those already holding shares; as the activities seen in Jita since your characters inception have been at least questionable. It is already a risk to invest as you claim to be new to EVE and still learning the markets. If you plan to build credibility it will have to be through transparency in your market operations via API, especially if you plan to continue jita games like those shown above. Investors will need assurances that it's not their funds being used, that is the only way.
Potential investor turned spectator for now, No disrespect intended, VCCV |
Morton Summers
NIWTHID Corp.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.18 04:58:16 -
[29] - Quote
vccv wrote:If you plan to build credibility it will have to be through transparency in your market operations via API, especially if you plan to continue jita games like those shown above. Investors will need assurances that it's not their funds being used, that is the only way. Not that haven't done my fair share of gambling, I think you should be attempting to put that isk into market pvp rather than waiting time with it, but that is your choice of course. I wish you the best of luck, it can be a rough start!
Potential investor turned spectator for now, No disrespect intended, VCCV
I completely agree. To start, I've created the following API key which anyone can use:
Key ID: 4535059 Verification Code: pEo9qZDizcTbp90eIo7YQ85YB9Gtep0tXDNrjBCxkDMgreIA8VSJ5kfhGHUsCqPU
This key will let you view the corporation's current balance and the Journal. Hopefully this will be enough for it to be obvious that I am managing the fund to the best of my abilities and not randomly giving Isk out to strangers. Note that the journal primarily contains market interactions related to buy and sell orders. Furthermore all other interactions are documented - for instance when I transfer money into the account it is labelled "Investment" and I have it labelled as "Dividend" when I transfer money into the master account and then labeled "Dividend payout" for returning the money the corporation receieved for its portion of the shares back to the principle. Further note that one investor has pulled their investment (several days ago unlrelated to this) and that this interaction is labelled "Share buyback." The only other entry of note is "Scam buyback" which is one of the initial 2 million I invested after being paid to say someone's scam was valid. This was before other investors that I did not have a close relation with had come on board and I had not fully decided what the corporation was about. Note that besides this one initial payment all other payments are well documented and align with what I have said so far.
If someone wishes to view additional information, for instance my personal journal, or to look at the specific assets we were purchasing. Message me in good faith and I will do my best to oblige. However, I feel the key above is just open enough to reveal enough information to corroborate what I have said while restrictive enough to not infringe on the corporations autonomy and the privacy of the investors.
Note again that if, in light of any of the information that I have put forth, an investor no longer feels comfortable with me handling their money, I will stand by my initial offer and buy back their shares at 1 mil a piece.
Hopefully this helps clear things up, --Morton Summers |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
254
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Posted - 2015.07.18 18:50:08 -
[30] - Quote
I'm pulling out. But for the record, I have gambled on jita games and if I lose isk I dont calculate those funds when determining my NAV or monthly interest payments so that my investors dont suffer. That's where some of the "adjusted" NAVs have come from. If I win, I do add that into the pool so me and my investors both win. Consider doing the same. I'm only pulling out because the last 2 lines in that pastebin I dont like, not because you played jita games
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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