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Fredou
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.12.03 02:46:00 -
[61]
i can live with the "improved regional market" aka contract
what i can't stand is the fact that i need to do 10-50 jump to claim something...
because... when i arrive... the damn items got claimed by someone else!
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Villaine Vangard
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Posted - 2006.12.03 02:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Maya Rkell ... end-bidding substantially drives the price UP. Another reason to use the forums / 3rd party sites.
Its a reason for the seller, not for the buyer. When only sellers move to the forums... well you know what i mean
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.03 02:49:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/12/2006 02:50:07 Villaine Vangard, no, the buyers just have the requirement they need to FIND what they want to buy. Globally. "Anytime within a day" also means the buyer must hang arround and keep checking for overbids, and they have NO idea if its anywhere near finishing, etc.
Useless, as I said.
//Maya |
Villaine Vangard
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Posted - 2006.12.03 02:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/12/2006 02:50:07 Villaine Vangard, no, the buyers just have the requirement they need to FIND what they want to buy. Globally. "Anytime within a day" also means the buyer must hang arround and keep checking for overbids, and they have NO idea if its anywhere near finishing, etc.
Useless, as I said.
Yeah, i think i got it now. I waited myself for some hours, went to bed and the next morning the item was sold (not to me )
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James Snowscoran
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.03 03:18:00 -
[65]
Contracts are a framework that is superior to escrow in so many ways that I'm baffled that anyone can say they want escrow back.
The problems associated with it can all be traced back to 2 sources:
1. Minor issues and grievances that shouldn't be too hard to fix. One notable exception is the contract limit, which does hit some businesses kinda hard and was a bit over the edge
2. People still being unfamiliar with the system. This encompasses about 95% of the complaints.
But why am I even writing this, people will always whine, it's way easier than trying to figure something out or being constructive anyways. -----
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.03 03:25:00 -
[66]
Escrow worked. Contracts do not.
Simple enough?
There are "minor" after "minor" issues, all of which utterly cripple any use contracts might have had. And no, "unfamiliar" does not fix a single one of the crippling issues.
You cannot "figure out" your way arround hard-coded, crippling limitations of the system which is crippling much of the commerce of Eve by its design, and by its utterly useless UI which clearly had zero actual designer input into it - it's a typical "coder first" implimentation.
//Maya |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium Kurai Komichi
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Posted - 2006.12.03 03:35:00 -
[67]
I don't really see what the problem is with contracts. I have had zero problems with them.
For those of you who can't find contracts that are labeled for you - They don't show up in "My Contracts" because they aren't your contracts. Go to "Available Contracts" and set the View field to "Me". That's how you find contracts designated to you.
It is also possible (if you click the "Show More Options" menu) to search for specific items or a general description.
I have had no problem creating contracts "On Behalf Of" my corporation or FOR my corporation.
Most of the problems people are mentioning are because they simply don't know how to use the system. It isn't that difficult at all if you just take a few minutes to sit and play with it. The only problem I can see is not being able to search all regions at once. This would be easier to solve if people would start setting up hubs in other regions. That way we don't have to go all the way to fricken Jita to get a TS Large Armor Rep.
Put up your contracts in a diff hub. ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Areconus
Caldari Cereal Killerz
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Posted - 2006.12.03 04:50:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Areconus on 03/12/2006 04:51:42 Edited by: Areconus on 03/12/2006 04:51:04
Originally by: Ngwee This new eye candy contract system is painfull to use and feels like someone whos never used escrow for anything beyond a casual toe in the water useage was behind its design.
Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 01/12/2006 07:09:02
And if you read my post, you'd see me agreeing that not being able to search across regions is a pain and a flaw in my opinion too. However, it is better than the previous system where it would randomly throw a bunch of escrows at you
I agree with you on this part, why did they even have "all regions" if it didnt display "all" of the escrows?
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Driven
Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea
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Posted - 2006.12.03 05:14:00 -
[69]
The escrow system was so broken that when they announced the theory of this new system it seemed to be that only a blind drunken retarded monkey could do worse than what we had.
I was wrong.
The in-game auction system is so bad as to be unusable unless you just never want to leave Jita - ever. The rest of it..... oh hell whats the point. They don't care anyways.
I BUY TECH II AMMO BPOs |
Deikan Frost
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.03 06:33:00 -
[70]
Originally by: hydraSlav
Originally by: Omber Zombie my biggest issue is I can't see what auctions i've bid on without hotlinking the bookmark into my notepad for later viewing.
Umm.... unless the feature is bugged (dunno, haven't made any bids), the tools are there
Linkage
That's what you did wrong, "Owner = Me" means YOUR Auctions... not what YOU bid on...
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.12.03 10:06:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Grimpak only thing that I complain is the fact that when it says "less than a day" it doesn't specify, you are restricted to a single region, and to bid on an auction, you must be in the same region.
as I see it, "less than a day" is made so to prevent sniping. Very good idea by the way, as "sniping rule" is hard to implement and annoyingly increases auction times. Without knowing the exact time of ending of auction however, snipers can't snipe at all. Everyone is encouraged to bet as soon as possible as the auction can virtually end at any moment... So IMO this finding is brilliant. And if an auction creator wants the snipers, fine, just specify the current time in description.
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Skarraza
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Posted - 2006.12.03 17:28:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
as I see it, "less than a day" is made so to prevent sniping.
I logged on today and checked an auction I had bid on last night when it said "less than a day". This morning it said "less than an hour" and a few minutes later I was declared the winner.
So the precise time isn't there but it does give you a clue. What it DOES need is rather than a day is to "less than X hours" once it is under a day. I really don't think people need to know it is ending in 10 seconds. Sure they do that on Ebay, but Ebay also lets you set a maximum bid, not just a current bid.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.03 17:59:00 -
[73]
Lisento Slaven, that's nice. I do all that. None of the ones sent to me show. I cannot make them (it sits there when I press to accept it).
And why would I put a contract in a different hub? IT WON'T SELL. You WILL have to go to Jita to get named items, period, per this design. People won't even LOOK at items elsewhere, even if they can make it work, and the items don't vanish into limbo like a load my friends have lost trying it.
Further, you're utterly ignoring again how the private ones NOT functioning as promised has utterly broken the backbone of Eve industry!
Skarraza, I've not seen "under an hour", personally. And yes, maximum bid would be...sensible.
Mnengli Noiliffe, it means that a lot of people won't use the system because it might end in 23 hours or 2 minutes. Makes it *impossible* with the maximum-bid-only system to determine a reasonable bid. The people who sit with alts in Jita checking for overbids WILL win every auction, as opposed to the people who want to PLAY the game.
//Maya |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.12.03 18:58:00 -
[74]
Escrow had many many issues, but this new system has more. Everything takes more clicks, and doesnt really provide more power. Escrow would have been perfect with an advanced filter ("show everything except stuff sold by scammer1, d00d2, lamer3", "show everything that isnt a BPC" etc) and a search option.
What we got instead is a little bit of everything that works a lot worse in practice. I can filter out ONE single name, but no block list. I can search for one item, but not for a group (faction EANMs etc).
Fix the system (scrap it, and get a real UI designer), or reintroduce escrow alongside it. The system is an interesting addition, but no way in hell is it in replacement for escrow.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium Kurai Komichi
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Posted - 2006.12.04 03:04:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Lisento Slaven, that's nice. I do all that. None of the ones sent to me show. I cannot make them (it sits there when I press to accept it).
And why would I put a contract in a different hub? IT WON'T SELL. You WILL have to go to Jita to get named items, period, per this design. People won't even LOOK at items elsewhere, even if they can make it work, and the items don't vanish into limbo like a load my friends have lost trying it.
Further, you're utterly ignoring again how the private ones NOT functioning as promised has utterly broken the backbone of Eve industry!
Skarraza, I've not seen "under an hour", personally. And yes, maximum bid would be...sensible.
Mnengli Noiliffe, it means that a lot of people won't use the system because it might end in 23 hours or 2 minutes. Makes it *impossible* with the maximum-bid-only system to determine a reasonable bid. The people who sit with alts in Jita checking for overbids WILL win every auction, as opposed to the people who want to PLAY the game.
Maya - it does work. I've done it multiple times with my alts and other players. People in my corp and my alliance and friends in other alliances have all been using Contracts successfully. If they are not working for YOU then I suggest YOU fill out a bug report.
People WILL look in other regions because people are LAZY. If they can get an item when it is within 10 jumps then they won't take the 20 jumps to Jita. It's the simple. Amarr acts as a hub in Domain region. There is plenty of faction loot for sale there but not a TON of Faction loot. People always check the local region first before they go all the way to the super-mall. Why would you go to Jita when you have that TS Large Rep 2 jumps away for the same price?
Again - you're ignoring everyone when they say the private ones are working fine (because they are). I have had no problems with them and I know a lot of people who have had no problems with them. To view contracts designated *for you* go to "Available Contracts" and set the view filter to "Me" and make sure there is nothing in any of the other filters.
You're basing everything on your own experience and ignoring everyone else Maya, when you say it isn't working for you. Just because it isn't working for you it doesn't represent the entire population of EVE. File a bug report if it's not working for you or maybe re-evaluate how you're using it. ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Devian
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Posted - 2006.12.05 05:06:00 -
[76]
You can't bid or claim anything outside of your region. DUMB!!
You can't edit your contract. So if you make an error and need to delete it you LOSE THE DEPOSIT! What is the point of this deposit!?!?!? It is useless and utterly irritating. If I have little isk in my wallet I can't even make a contract due to the stupid deposit.
Lets say I wanted to sell a Carrier and I mistakenly put it up for 10 billion isk. In escrow I would lose 850 isk to repost. In contracts I lose the broker fee and a HUGE deposit!!!!!!!!!!!
Please tell me why I should use contracts? I am going to just use the forums methinks.
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KixxiK
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Posted - 2006.12.05 06:06:00 -
[77]
The new contract system is very nice and very flexible. It has several things that are annoying like claiming ranges that I think will be changed so I won't dwell on them.
The OP's problem is one problem I hope they fix. Very Expensive/Very Rare items are a hastle to find, because there is maybe -1- of the item you want in some random region. So you have to search all regions over and over endlessly waiting for that item to be available and at a good price. My fear is this problem won't be fixed, because making all regions searchable at once, is a harder hit on the database. Short of actually hiring people who can code to optimize this query. Make a timer on contract searches, you can do 1 every 30 seconds. And if you do an 'all region search' you can't do another search for 5 minutes or something. Or you can only do an 'all region search' when the DB load is low, or it's low priority so it takes long.
The other complaint is from people who want to sell mass quantities of things but are limited by the skills. I assume these people are manufacturing many of the same item and trying to sell them 1 at a time on contracts. For instance someone making 100 thorax's and selling them on escrow. There should be a new kind of contract for this called "Continuous" or something. When you create the contract you would just tell it to sell your 1 thorax, 100 times. It would create 1 contract in the DB, w/ a "quantity" column value of 100. When a thorax is sold, it just decrements this. This way instead of 100 seperate contracts, each appearing in search results, you would only see 1. This also means I don't have to spend 100 of my available contracts to sell my thoraxes, just 1. This would take almost 0 coding and actually help DB performance.
One thing I'd like to see is the merger of markets and contracts. Market Orders are really just 'Item Exchanges', there is no reason not to merge these into 1 system with 2 front ends. When you access the Market, the front end just plugs in some generic criteria into the 'Contract Search'. The flip side is you would be able to see remote markets.
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Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.12.05 06:12:00 -
[78]
Everyone who is saying that "you can no longer show all regions at once" aren't right....this never worked properly before. It would show a number of items from all regions, but NOT ALL OF THEM. (rendering it a bit pointless really...)
At least the current implementation of contracts seems to be more robust. Hopefully they will add the ability to check all markets, though imo they need to add a lot of filtering options to allow this, the list before when you selected "all regions" was very long (and it didn't even have all the items on escrow...).
The new contracts are awesome. I hope they do add filtering/search options and the ability to place more than the current max (16 at level 5 Contracts?).
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.12.05 08:50:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Skarraza, I've not seen "under an hour", personally. And yes, maximum bid would be...sensible.
Mnengli Noiliffe, it means that a lot of people won't use the system because it might end in 23 hours or 2 minutes. Makes it *impossible* with the maximum-bid-only system to determine a reasonable bid. The people who sit with alts in Jita checking for overbids WILL win every auction, as opposed to the people who want to PLAY the game.
well there is a buyout, isn't there? Or what do you mean by "maximum bid"? Sorry I'm not used to the auctions... But yeah the minimum bid increment would be good feature as well, and some kind of a sniper rule too.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.12.05 08:57:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Flesh Eater Everyone who is saying that "you can no longer show all regions at once" aren't right....this never worked properly before. It would show a number of items from all regions, but NOT ALL OF THEM. (rendering it a bit pointless really...)
At least the current implementation of contracts seems to be more robust. Hopefully they will add the ability to check all markets, though imo they need to add a lot of filtering options to allow this, the list before when you selected "all regions" was very long (and it didn't even have all the items on escrow...).
The new contracts are awesome. I hope they do add filtering/search options and the ability to place more than the current max (16 at level 5 Contracts?).
At least you had a CHANCE to see something you need in different region. In fact you could tell exactly how much time the escrow stays in the listing, and check every that number of hours if you wanted something desparately. Now for even that you need to do several searches in different regions, and you can't saee them all, but I'm fine with this last part as long as there's a good search feature.
So I think they need to make the global search feature, not the global listing feature. With global claiming of course. And without stuped deposit. But who wouldn't want that really?
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DriveCrash
The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.05 09:58:00 -
[81]
I like some of the ideas of the new contract system, but it was far from finished or thought through.
1) Full regions search. Thats the biggest advantage escrow had over market. Jita is busy enough. This is makeing it worse, by a power.. not multipule. 2) 15 limit at level 5, but 500 limit within corp? bad. 3) have to be in region to claim? why even bother with other region searchs? item will be gone if it's at a good price 4) Auction is an awesome idea, love it. Improve it. Ability to track what you've bid on, perhaps add a nofication you've been outbid? perhaps not. But still. Nice idea
The most important thing is all region search. I cannot stress this enough. /signed. -DCO
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Shao Chan
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:06:00 -
[82]
The new contracts system impossible to navigate through with ease to find anything quickly. Its a simple fact of buying and selling that when people are given easy access to browse and look over goods,they tend to buy not only what they need but a heck of a lot of other stuff they didn't know they needed,and do it more frequently,which is clearly good for market health. The UI on contracts is clearly not this, now you have to know specifically exactly what you need then spend forever trying to find it,which is bad for both buyers and sellers. 25 Items per page with huge icons,just impacts the problem. What is needed? Take a leaf from what was best about the UI of ESCROW just reduce the emtry size in the current system to one,a single line that expands to drop down to the size of the current entries,also bring back the column headers so we can again sort by price/alphabetically/seller ect. Trading should be simple direct and fast,as any market trader can tell you.
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Kathrine Centas
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:47:00 -
[83]
what if walmart was setup like contracts is? no orginzation, no grouping of items..
the current system reminds me of a dollar store. bleeeeh.
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Adren Silvori
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:11:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Driven The escrow system was so broken that when they announced the theory of this new system it seemed to be that only a blind drunken retarded monkey could do worse than what we had.
I was wrong.
The in-game auction system is so bad as to be unusable unless you just never want to leave Jita - ever. The rest of it..... oh hell whats the point. They don't care anyways.
True, true...
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MORRS
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Posted - 2006.12.18 16:53:00 -
[85]
I for one would like the old escrow system back. The new contracts have it's place but need to be improved upon.
The old escrow system allowed me to sell globally, easily, non restrictive and I could find anything I wanted in under a few minutes. I could scroll through the pages in any sort order I wanted looking for steals and deals.
Currently and since patch I have accumulated some 400 cap and BS, BC bpc's which I am not able to sell now. I am limited to 13 contract slots which no one can see anyway. I have sold very little and if I haven't then so is probably the story of many others. I have posted in forums which I might add has about 15 to 20 pages of postings per day. I monitor the trade channels in game which chat about everything under the sun except what they are there for. Normally, I would have no bpc's in stock. With escrow they went fast. With contracts, they sit in station going no where.
Look, the most effective way to sell stuff is in game and that is taken away from us and replaced with something that is unusable, limited and is an isk sink. I don't understand how this is better for anyone. We need a little love and support here and I hope you feel my pain or at least understand where I am coming from.
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UGWidowmaker
Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.18 17:08:00 -
[86]
stupid u need skills to make em... 1 contract without skills LOL i actually had to train social lvl 1... i once swore id never get that stupid skill... guess ccp forced me to it... waste of my time.. I will make your wife/mann a widow. |
DarknessInc
Minmatar Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.12.18 17:12:00 -
[87]
Edited by: DarknessInc on 18/12/2006 17:13:29 your an idiot.
I have no problem searching Contracts for specific items. I outfitted my entire Pilgrim with DB and TS items which I searched for in the MAJOR trading hubs. Its simple like that. Search the major trading hubs, and if you cant find a price you like, search the Regions where you would expect to FIND that item.
Its really simple and easy to figure out if you try and stop refusing to learn something.
I can buy WHATEVER I want to buy using the SEARCH feature inside Contracts.
Wait..OHH WAIT! YOu didnt notice the little option 'More Options' which allow you to specify Price/Item Type.
Go explore that then complain about it not having a search feature
Freighter Sales
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Soporo
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Posted - 2006.12.18 17:26:00 -
[88]
New Contracts blows for reasons mentioned in many responses above, I wont repeat them.
I find my self rarely using it to look for anything as its a time sink in more ways than one, and frustrating. When once I could put a <random item> on sale, it would sell in a day. Now, it goes a week or more. Why? Obviously people are struggling with it. People complain about hard to find rare items, thats probably true. It also drives away the casual buyer/seller who have better things to do than fart around with it for 30-45 minutes looking for deals.
So what do I do? Same thing as everyone else that wants to buy/sell...haul/go to a Hub.
The old Escrow had problems sure, but it was FAST. IMO, some functions are great for Corp use etc, BUT if it's not easy and intuitive and FAST people just wont use it much and Hubs will get worse.
Fix it or not, dont really care, but dont complain about Hubs which was EXACERBATED by this Contract System.
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Macon Squaredealer
Squaredeal Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.12.18 17:29:00 -
[89]
Originally by: DarknessInc Edited by: DarknessInc on 18/12/2006 17:13:29 I have no problem searching Contracts for specific items.
Type the word "Snowballs" or "snowball launcher" in the search field and tell me what you see. Answer: Nothing. It (and many other items) don't show up in the search results nor are they allowed to be listed on the regular market.
More importantly, the new system is so user unfriendly that people don't browse it for interesting items and make impulse buys of items they didn't even know existed or forgot they needed (and thus would never even know to search for). The old escrow system had many flaws, but you could look it over a lot faster than the new contract system. People can't browse the contract system like they did the escrow system.
The new system is making trading harder. Making trading harder is making the "Jita effect" worse, not better. ___________________________________________ Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months. |
Nir
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.12.18 17:32:00 -
[90]
I went from using Escrow on a daily basis for both selling and buying items pre-patch to not using Contracts all at.
I tried to like it, but its too cluttered and way more time consuming than the old system.
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