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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.03 01:31:00 -
[151]
Pirates warping in to steal loot on missions = funny as hell. I don't have a problem with it.
Pirates warping in to steal critical loot on missions = broken or griefing. It needs a fix or those players need a ban. I'm easy either way.
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Qutsemnie
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.03 01:54:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Qutsemnie on 03/12/2006 02:04:22
Seems like the most eve-like solution is to associate every can that drops in a mission with the person that got the mission so that you are criminially flagged for looting from it just as if the mission getter had jet canned it.
IE all loot rights are detirmined by who spawned the NPC and not who killed the NPC as previously handled in eve.
This seems most in keeping with how Eve wants to handle itself.
To be honest in regards to another low sec issue just activating a mission deadspace gate while not in the gang of the person that spawned the mission should get you criminially flagged at that instance.
So that when you go into someone elses deadspace you are already a criminal and they have kill rights and they dont have to wait for you to be a dink.
Seems eve like right?
So you probe out someone elses gate for a mission. You go to activate the gate and if you arnt in the gang of the person that got the gate spawned you get a popup "This is a criminal action do you wish to proceed". And if you proceed you warp in as a criminal to the owner of the mission. In low sec this means they can engage you right away which adds risk to pirating. It also could mean in highsec they have kill rights for some time etc.
Personally long before I locked the instances for this reason I would lock the wrecks/cans~ to gang only =)~ But that is a step beyond criminially flagging for looting someone elses mission cans while being a step under locking the entire instance. Seems like if they liked criminially flagging for stealing someones loot from a kill or mining up than giving criminially flagged for jumping into someones deadspace mission and looting off a kill (even a kill of the theif) should be given a chance by the powers that be.
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Alyx Pretzel
Amarr Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.03 01:58:00 -
[153]
did someone say "brave missions runners"??? lol
also... this thread needs mods like i need platinum insurance . hi |
Moadeep
Minmatar LoneStar Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.03 02:24:00 -
[154]
A feature in the probeing system is the source of this new griefing.
Read here about it: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=436307
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Wration
Caldari GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.12.03 03:49:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Alyx Pretzel did someone say "brave missions runners"??? lol
Yepp some one did..
I would call some that is doing missions in 0.1-0.4 sec with the current probing brave or rather crazy.
Heck i would bet you would not dare to run them in a system that you have no backup with an expensive PvE setup.
But hey its easy to laught at the carebears when one got a pretty safe 0.0 space to rat/mine in.
Never thought about that people dont always like being in a huge corp/alliance for diffirent reasons and just want a good time for there money?
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MrLobster
Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.04 11:39:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Dreamdancer I like the gate key idea as well, but it needs to be a use it once and all your gang mates can use it even if they get there a bit late or as what many do now, the main tanker goes in and grabs agro then other warpin to help. If each needs to have a key it'll be a pain.
The new gang system can be used with locked gates, only the commander (tanker) of the group needs the key, then everyone in the gang can warp in when they like. ______
Better? - MrLobster |
Helga Clearskies
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Posted - 2006.12.04 13:50:00 -
[157]
step 1: create a new Caldari character with frigate IV step 2: train science 3 & astrometrics 3
There you go, within a day you can scan down mission runners with a Heron. Personally I recommend Fathom probes since they catch most BS sized ships within 10 AU.
step 3: enter deadspace and bookmark it step 4: using your 3 sensor boosters and civilian gatling gun shoot all inactive spawns and warp out step 5: wait for the mission runner to cancel his mission in disgust, warp to BM and scoop loot
alternatively...
step 3b: scan ships for smartbombs, remember ship names step 4b: find them, enter deadspace, hurl towards them in fast frigate step 5b: wait for concord to deliver punishment, get a new frig and scoop loot
I'm ready, watch out Motsu!
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Syrakus
Caldari Empire Excavations
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Posted - 2006.12.04 14:56:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Syrakus on 04/12/2006 15:01:22 To all that have not noticed it. EVE was and hopefully will ever be a place for both kind of people:
1. People that are mostly interested in PVE 2. People that mostly play for the PVP part of the game.
CCP has invented a system that allows both styles to be played in one single reality by introducing different security levels and rules at that levels. Commonly known as high sec, low sec and 0.0. I'm playing EVE since its release and i must say its a great game mostly because of the symbiose of both play styles. You are free to decide wether you want to PVP or just play a few hours PVE, combat or join the industry part ... i.e. you can choose what to do.
I have tried many styles but at moment i have simply not the time to join in the PVP part of the game again and i feel this is O.K. Think of it as a timeout. Of course PVP is the main goal of the game but it can not exist without the possibility to PVE sometimes. Thus PVE is not only for newbies on their way to PVP but for all kind of player.
In the early days of EVE this was commonly accepted. Sometimes ways where found to cricumwent CCPs intentions by using game mechanics in ways CCP has not thought off. Which lead to changes in game mechanics ... And i think we have another case of such an abuse of game mechanics CCP just didn't thought off. Missions as a part of PVE were not supposed to be interruptable by griefers. I think CCP will sort this out. I see some ways that were discussed here over and over, i will just give an overview:
1. Restrict access to mission deadspace pockets to the group 2. Flag everyone that opens cans that dropped from mission rats etc. as criminal 3. Flag everyone that enters your deadspace as criminal
I think the only method that would work is 1. Why?
Take a look at 2. and 3. and why they can not work as with ore thieving:
The griefers are not really there to loot your cans. They are there to get fun out of disturbing the mission runners game expirience! They aggroe all the rats - ok, he gets criminally flagged but: he can use a good ship with a PVP fitting that you could not stand a fight 1 vs. 1 under normal circumstances. But as the hole stage aggroes you your chances are zero to survive such an attack. In fact you would do them a favor by allowing them to shoot you. The only option you have is: LEAVE.
By the way, even the ore can flagging implemented for ore thieving does not work as intended: You warp in with a ship that can own all barges etc. easily. You make a new can and move all the ore to your can. You are now criminally flagged but no one would engage you as they would just loose their ship. Now you can get another char to fetch "his" ore ... Realy lame. Where is the fun in such methods ?
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Dingus Rx
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Posted - 2006.12.04 15:41:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/12/2006 14:30:32 Can theft is one thing... Mission loot theft by jumping in... Lol.
Actually I can see someone pirating in high sec with it. Wait till the mission runner gets scrambled by NPC's, then uncloak, aggro all and warp out. Come back in and cloak while the mission runner is forced to tank everything, possibly dieing in the process....
Now that is just purely EVIL. I'm sure this will quickly become the bane of certain lvl 4 missions. Dingus Out
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Istefan
Caldari Luna Rossa Corporation The Guardian Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.04 16:10:00 -
[160]
CCP is going to need to address this. Ignoring it will cost them subscribers.
I recently returned to the game just this weekend(Been gone for almost 2 years). While trying to re-learn the ropes, I was solo running some level 3 missions in my Raven. Not knowing/understanding that people could do this, I got tracked down by a group of pirates who then followed me into my mission. I got scrambled and (long story short), I no longer own a Raven, nor can I currently afford to replace it.
If this keeps up, I guess the pirates/griefers will have to grief each other? "It is easier to fight for principles than to live up to them." Alfred Adler |
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Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2006.12.04 16:48:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Istefan I got tracked down by a group of pirates who then followed me into my mission. I got scrambled and (long story short), I no longer own a Raven, nor can I currently afford to replace it.
Mr. Istefan,
sorry to hear about your loss.
I take it you were mission running in low-sec? Were you expecting to be safe there while you were running the mission?
Even before Kali you could be tracked down by a skilled reconnaisance pilot. It is just the likelyness of it happening that has increased with Kali.
Also, DO NOT FLY WHAT YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE. Simple rule, and it is a very wise one to follow.
All the best to you, VV
In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey. |
Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.12.04 16:49:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 04/12/2006 16:51:37
Originally by: Syrakus The griefers are not really there to loot your cans. They are there to get fun out of disturbing the mission runners game expirience! They aggroe all the rats - ok, he gets criminally flagged but: he can use a good ship with a PVP fitting that you could not stand a fight 1 vs. 1 under normal circumstances. But as the hole stage aggroes you your chances are zero to survive such an attack. In fact you would do them a favor by allowing them to shoot you. The only option you have is: LEAVE.
By the way, even the ore can flagging implemented for ore thieving does not work as intended: You warp in with a ship that can own all barges etc. easily. You make a new can and move all the ore to your can. You are now criminally flagged but no one would engage you as they would just loose their ship. Now you can get another char to fetch "his" ore ... Realy lame. Where is the fun in such methods ?
Indeed, only griefers will prosper with scan probes the way they are now ... any fix to do with can flagging will fail, because as Syrakus said, a pierat will just turn up in something that you have NO HOPE of winning against and you will not engage him ...
The pierats whin^h^h^h^h win again
(edit - changed anything to any fix)
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.12.04 16:54:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 04/12/2006 16:54:50
Originally by: Victor Vision I take it you were mission running in low-sec? Were you expecting to be safe there while you were running the mission?
Even before Kali you could be tracked down by a skilled reconnaisance pilot. It is just the likelyness of it happening that has increased with Kali.
Before a skilled pilot could have caught you, and it would have taken him quite a while ....now, any idiot can catch you in a few minutes ... i.e. yet another borked game mechanic |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.04 16:56:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Helga Clearskies step 1: create a new Caldari character with frigate IV step 2: train science 3 & astrometrics 3
There you go, within a day you can scan down mission runners with a Heron. Personally I recommend Fathom probes since they catch most BS sized ships within 10 AU.
step 3: enter deadspace and bookmark it step 4: using your 3 sensor boosters and civilian gatling gun shoot all inactive spawns and warp out step 5: wait for the mission runner to cancel his mission in disgust, warp to BM and scoop loot
alternatively...
step 3b: scan ships for smartbombs, remember ship names step 4b: find them, enter deadspace, hurl towards them in fast frigate step 5b: wait for concord to deliver punishment, get a new frig and scoop loot
I'm ready, watch out Motsu!
Easier way: Make a Minmatar pilot and put him into a Probe frigate with 50% faster scan speed. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2006.12.04 17:01:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/12/2006 17:10:45 Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/12/2006 17:10:34 Forum bugyness 4tw. double post.
In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey. |
Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2006.12.04 17:09:00 -
[166]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/12/2006 17:12:04
Originally by: Radioactive Babe Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 04/12/2006 16:54:50
Originally by: Victor Vision I take it you were mission running in low-sec? Were you expecting to be safe there while you were running the mission?
Even before Kali you could be tracked down by a skilled reconnaisance pilot. It is just the likelyness of it happening that has increased with Kali.
Before a skilled pilot could have caught you, and it would have taken him quite a while ....now, any idiot can catch you in a few minutes ... i.e. yet another borked game mechanic
Dear Miss Radioactive,
The reconnaisance pilots I know could track you down pre-Kali in about 5 minutes. Sometimes it would take them as little as 2 minutes.
So the difference pre-Kali to now is not realy the speed it takes to track someone down. The difference is that finding someone is now not RL skill but ingame skill based.
So we are seeing a larger number of players being able to track other players down.
Hope you dont get a sunburn from your radioactivity , VV
In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey. |
Phoenix Jones
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Posted - 2006.12.04 17:11:00 -
[167]
This is a big issue.
Remember not everybody here plays to pvp. Yes this is a pvp game, but there are allot of casual players who indeed don't want to have a near heart attack each time they warp.
I'm a casual player. I know the risks but this is a serious issue for both highsec and lowsec space. There is really no way to adapt to something like this.
People will
1) Wait for you to engage, then train more npc's to you 2) in lowsec, will wait till you engage, and taking damage, then kill you 3) Will take a few people and camp the gate, waiting for your hauler to come to clean up the loot 4) Race through the mission, pop the end guy, and screw it up for you 5) Harass you by entering a mission, and just waiting there.
Approximately 1/2 of the playerbase is made up of casual players who just like to rat sometimes, do some trades, maybe build a few ships. This will alienate much of that populus.
150 thousand subscribers will get ****ed off by less than 100 @ssholes who decide to grief people using these tactics.
---------------The Low Sec Issue------------- Gatecamps that kill all who pass with no remorse and in many cases, no possible way of retaliation, is not PVP. |
Mistress Evita
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Posted - 2006.12.04 17:27:00 -
[168]
It's more then likly been wrote already: What it comes down to is what CCP wants to do. If CCP feels that it is OK for others to jump in on the Mission Runner and take the stuff (NPCs and/or loot)and thus have some people cancel their accounts so be it. This is not a problem if a majority of the player base agrees with this. It is a problem if the majority does not and those people cancel thus taking money away from CCP. Money that could be used to improve and grow the game.
Unless the people at CCP are not into making money for themselves and improving the game they will change this aspect of the game. It is a bussiness they are running. It is no longer a hobby once you get past a certain number of people on a server.
Me, I would not mind having people automatically flagged for me to have the right to shot first if they jumped in on my mission in high sec. Treat the mission area has low sec or 0.0 and be done with it.
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Istefan
Caldari Luna Rossa Corporation The Guardian Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.04 17:28:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Victor Vision
Originally by: Istefan I got tracked down by a group of pirates who then followed me into my mission. I got scrambled and (long story short), I no longer own a Raven, nor can I currently afford to replace it.
Mr. Istefan,
sorry to hear about your loss.
I take it you were mission running in low-sec? Were you expecting to be safe there while you were running the mission?
Even before Kali you could be tracked down by a skilled reconnaisance pilot. It is just the likelyness of it happening that has increased with Kali.
Also, DO NOT FLY WHAT YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE. Simple rule, and it is a very wise one to follow.
All the best to you, VV
Unfortunately, part of what got me killed was a lack of experiance/knowledge of "dedspace". I had no idea that you could be followed into the mission once you activated the gate. If I had, I would have acted very differently. That said, from what I'm reading in this thread, tracking people down was made much easier with this patch. Most of the Level III missions I saw this weekend took you into low-sec (0.4 or 0.3, etc). If players can't run missions without getting easily ganked, what's the point of having the missions? "It is easier to fight for principles than to live up to them." Alfred Adler |
Gone'Postal
Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2006.12.04 17:35:00 -
[170]
the pure blindness of CCP for not seeing how something like this could happen has me in stitches...
I Feel for the mission runners.
The man without a face... The company without a clue.
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Aphotic Raven
Gallente Spectral Armada Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.04 17:57:00 -
[171]
I see a lot of people saying "We should have a key so that piwats cant get in!! T_T"
Terrible idea. Unless it bans gang members... making missions more boring wouldnt be so bad...
But anyway, why not simply have 1 target that can only be killed by the mission runner, even his gangmates have to let him struggle with the last big bad ass alone?
If people shoot it in sec space then they get concorded... and low sec mission runners will be more worried about getting fragged than some loot going missing...
Allowing people to get into missions and loot/salvage is a great idea.
Allowing carebears to roam unchecked is bad, but griefing a whole mission is pretty harsh too...
Quote: Melicien Tetro: I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ****ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.12.04 18:07:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Victor Vision Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/12/2006 17:12:04
Originally by: Radioactive Babe Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 04/12/2006 16:54:50
Originally by: Victor Vision I take it you were mission running in low-sec? Were you expecting to be safe there while you were running the mission?
Even before Kali you could be tracked down by a skilled reconnaisance pilot. It is just the likelyness of it happening that has increased with Kali.
Before a skilled pilot could have caught you, and it would have taken him quite a while ....now, any idiot can catch you in a few minutes ... i.e. yet another borked game mechanic
Dear Miss Radioactive,
The reconnaisance pilots I know could track you down pre-Kali in about 5 minutes. Sometimes it would take them as little as 2 minutes.
So the difference pre-Kali to now is not realy the speed it takes to track someone down. The difference is that finding someone is now not RL skill but ingame skill based.
So we are seeing a larger number of players being able to track other players down.
Hope you dont get a sunburn from your radioactivity , VV
Its true, someone could have found you in two minutes ... but they had plenty of ingame skills (cov ops 5 for one) as well as knowing how to do it .... now any pillock can find anyone else in minutes ... dumbing down skills 4tl
alas, poor risk and reward, I knew you well |
Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.12.04 18:25:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Aphotic Raven .....Allowing carebears to roam unchecked is bad...
and your reason for that statement is? in fact, I am pretty sure that most pierats want MORE carebears to come visiting them ....
alas, poor risk and reward, I knew you well |
Ralkuth
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Posted - 2006.12.04 18:49:00 -
[174]
The easiest thing to do (that worked fine for years) is to just make the Deadspace pockets unscannable. it ensures that the person that got the mission can complete it and not get ripped off by some %^^%%&&*(). How about it CCP?
ralkuth
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Titus Puelo
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Posted - 2006.12.04 18:59:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Titus Puelo on 04/12/2006 19:01:24 I find this very interesting. Pirates that are doing and defending in effect exactly what they are blasting the care bears for, taking the easy route.
If you big bad Pirates are so into adding difficulty to a care bears life, I'd think you'd challenge yourself and head to 0.0 space were the risks are greater but so is the reward. This is more to the fact you don't want to take any chances and face risk yourselves, in this you are even more the care bear than the pilot running the mission.
I respect those that took the time and effort to have the skill to do this prior to the patch and believe that this only cheapens their accomplishments.
But to all here that have a problem with it I guess we as a community deal or leave the game. There are lots of games out there and maybe this ones not for you anymore.
I have had this happen in other MMORPGÆS the biggest example of which is SWG. They changed the rules and lost the player base. New Players came in but not enough to replace those that left. We shall see where this goes and like many other MMORPGÆs, IÆm sure we'll see changes again both that we like and hate. ThatÆs just the way it is.
And the final decision you need to make is can I deal with it.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.05 00:06:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Caedicus [some stupid crap
Instead of Minmatar in your sig you should put Caedicus. Fits great!
now umm .. go hug a skeleton or something...
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Sundownr
The Clearwater Society
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Posted - 2006.12.05 00:09:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Titus Puelo Edited by: Titus Puelo on 04/12/2006 19:01:24 I find this very interesting. Pirates that are doing and defending in effect exactly what they are blasting the care bears for, taking the easy route.
If you big bad Pirates are so into adding difficulty to a care bears life, I'd think you'd challenge yourself and head to 0.0 space were the risks are greater but so is the reward. This is more to the fact you don't want to take any chances and face risk yourselves, in this you are even more the care bear than the pilot running the mission.
I believe the term folks have coined for these wimps is GankBear. <nods>
Absolutely NO respect for these azzhats. Yea, 'some' ski11z it took there, buddy, warping your pvp-rigged gankmobile into a mission-runners patch of space with their purely rigged for npc-hunting carebear-mobiles with the probe mechanics the way they're currently implemented equalling a flick of the wrist 'Warp Me To 'Em, Scotty!'-ftw button.
Why is there such an uproar now when before it was a fairly non-issue? Because as little as one week ago, pre-patch, it actually took skill and time to find your victim, unlike today's fish-in-a-barrel gameplay style that probings' upgrading has brought us.
Bah, whatever. Nothing we say here will change the dorks that like how easy it's become, we can only wait and see if this was the desired effect the devs had in mind when they implemented the probe changes, or whether this was a side-effect that requires adjustment in a future patch to bring this issue into line with ccp's 'vision' of eve gameplay.
To alieniate the masses of mission-running carebears leaving things as they stand tho 'may' be a path to reduced subscriber numbers as their eve-world becomes ever smaller. Already one of the effects we're seeing currently is that of the mission runners drawing back from lvl 3's and 4's in low-sec, reducing the size of the eve universe they see that much more.
Guess mission runners are stuck in a wait'n'see, here, but I don't imagine they'll be waiting all that long for ccp to address this issue, especially with the stability/queue/lag issues plaguing TQ lately.
Dunno 'bout you, but I would rather sandpaper a bobcat's butt in a phone booth than do missions in low-sec til this was sorted out one way or another. Glad I'm in 0.0 now and not in mission-running mode, yessiree. More of a level playing field out here, and one final point:
"No matter how good she looks, some guy is sick and tired of putting up with her crap".
okay, more of an observation, that. :)
-------------------------------------------------
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. -Aristotle |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.05 00:13:00 -
[178]
Originally by: fuze Edited by: fuze on 02/12/2006 01:28:52 You can't MWD in deadspace. You can't scan in deadspace (from the outside).
Problem fixed.
Next!
I see how you Being a Gallete rest devoid of a possible attack on a mission runner. No MWD no attack. Others have actually learned how to play.
Next.
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James Snowscoran
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.05 00:37:00 -
[179]
Personally, I'd love to see the 'solution' that CONCORD doesn't respond to attacks inside deadspace. Doesn't make sense anyways that they can warp straight in. That'd empower the players to deal with the problems on their own -----
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Sinnbad Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.12.05 01:05:00 -
[180]
Originally by: James Snowscoran Personally, I'd love to see the 'solution' that CONCORD doesn't respond to attacks inside deadspace. Doesn't make sense anyways that they can warp straight in. That'd empower the players to deal with the problems on their own
Quick question: Can those in your gang kill anyone who steals the loot which belong to the mission runner? |
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