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Ellatte Silversong
Drastic Measures. Solyaris Chtonium
1
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:03:26 -
[1] - Quote
I just finished about 6 hours worth of null sec exploration. All I found were data sites, which nobody seems to do anymore, except for the sleeper sites. I have run into fellow explorers that don't even have a data analyzer, because the Data sites are so worthless.
On a whim, I decided to see how much ISK I could pull out for 4 of them, all in the same system. My grand total? Under 20 million. My total for 6-8 hours of exploration? Under 80 million. This is terrible. I could easily have farmed over 400 million doing level 4 missions, which is boring as hell. Somebody running incursions would have had over 1 billion.
It is extremely depressing to log that much time and run into 1 relic site and not a single sleeper site. It makes exploration seem like a complete waste of time to anybody with a reasonable number of skill points. I have seen this all over EVE- since I travel everywhere.
People who can play off peak hours, which I have done, do far better, but for those of us forced to play at peak times the ISK to time ratio is terrible.
Please look at boosting the base rewards for data sites so that they are worth doing, or increase the spawn rate so that those of us stuck playing at these times can have the opportunity to find more sleeper/relic sites.
Though I have a trading alt to make real ISK, I like exploration- especially during wars with station camping corps, but it is just not worth it with nobody doing the data sites. |
Paranoid Loyd
6348
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:05:45 -
[2] - Quote
You can have a low barrier to proficiency with **** drops or a high barrier with good drops, you can't have both.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Ellatte Silversong
Drastic Measures. Solyaris Chtonium
1
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:11:03 -
[3] - Quote
The barrier is the same for the Relic sites and the Sleeper sites take a lot of training. The barrier for LvL 4 mission running is also low and the ISK is much better, not to mention, much lower risk. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Bagel and Lox
686
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:12:34 -
[4] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:You can have a low barrier to proficiency with **** drops or a high barrier with good drops, you can't have both.
CCP screwed exploration by making scanning too easy.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
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Orlacc
894
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:13:49 -
[5] - Quote
I agree that data sites in any space are basically worthless. Sometime a good BP, but I rarely equip a data analyzer at all. If OP is not finding relic sites in null, I would recommend moving elsewhere in null or check WHs.
So yes data sites need a looking at for sure.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Paranoid Loyd
6348
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:16:06 -
[6] - Quote
Ellatte Silversong wrote:The barrier is the same for the Relic sites and the Sleeper sites take a lot of training. The barrier for LvL 4 mission running is also low and the ISK is much better, not to mention, much lower risk. You can become proficient at scanning in a matter of days where as time to proficiency for level 4s (not being "able" but being proficient) is measured in months.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
498
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:17:37 -
[7] - Quote
Exploration as a profession, not just relic and data sites, is really hurting right now. The problem is actually similar between all its flavours; over-saturation. The cause of the saturation is different in each case, but when rare things stop being rare, they also tend to stop being valuable.
Make a new loot table for scanned down DEDs vs the escalation versions. Plenty of mods do not have deadspace versions yet.
As far as data/relic go, it's sort of hard to come up with something that will be in demand enough to keep large amounts of people employed farming it. I remember the first few weeks after Odyssey, and how quickly those prices normalized.
Exploration should be looked at, as there are plenty of people who find other income sources unbearable.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Ellatte Silversong
Drastic Measures. Solyaris Chtonium
1
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:27:49 -
[8] - Quote
"You can become proficient at scanning in a matter of days where as time to proficiency for level 4s (not being "able" but being proficient) is measured in months. "
Being able to scan down and hack sleeper sites take a long time- t2 relic/data- plus scanning skills, not to mention training up a T3 for the tough ones and keep from losing ships in well run bubble camps. I could easily do level 4's with all my skills at level IV with a sentry Domi- though I made 10 million less per hour or so, than I had once everything was trained up.
Other things like station trading take 21 days to train up and can bring in far more money. So your argument doesn't really hold water.
I have explored all over Eve. All the decent areas are pretty much the same, though you do get lucky from time to time and find systems with sites. It still does not address that basic issue that Data sites are so bad, most explorers ignore them. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3542
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:46:16 -
[9] - Quote
At one time CCP said they wanted exploration to be the most profitable type of PvE.
Its not. Not by a long shot.
One way to improve it: Increase the breadth of the loot tables. Add skillbooks, ALL the skillbooks, and BPOs to T1 stuff. (These are items currently bought from NPCs). To avoid tanking the market, insure the drop rate of any given skillbook or BPO is less than the current buy rate from the NPCs. This means the NPC price will set a floor.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Johnny Riko
Kill Them With Kindness
7
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:48:16 -
[10] - Quote
Ellatte Silversong wrote:"You can become proficient at scanning in a matter of days where as time to proficiency for level 4s (not being "able" but being proficient) is measured in months. "
Being able to scan down and hack sleeper sites take a long time- t2 relic/data- plus scanning skills, not to mention training up a T3 for the tough ones and keep from losing ships in well run bubble camps. I could easily do level 4's with all my skills at level IV with a sentry Domi- though I made 10 million less per hour or so, than I had once everything was trained up.
Other things like station trading take 21 days to train up and can bring in far more money. So your argument doesn't really hold water.
I have explored all over Eve. All the decent areas are pretty much the same, though you do get lucky from time to time and find systems with sites. It still does not address that basic issue that Data sites are so bad, most explorers ignore them.
I would say sleeper sites are more combat oriented than exploration/hacking. CCP should make the hacking game much harder, but not in terms of skill requirements/luck, but in terms of how much you actually have to think to solve them.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1603
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:58:16 -
[11] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Make a new loot table for scanned down DEDs vs the escalation versions. Plenty of mods do not have deadspace versions yet.
+1
CCPlease 2015 and still no deadspace large remote reps.
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Arla Sarain
560
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Posted - 2015.07.23 19:01:16 -
[12] - Quote
Such a simple thread quickly derailed by "hurr durr Highsec lvl 4s make so much *money*". LP rewards payout as much as you nullsec crabs are willing to pay, because all the liquid ISK available for trading comes from anoms and incursions. Stop paying mission runners as much as you are and their income will drop. Or start doing regular BLOPs to churn out all the expensive sh*t from NS renters.
The point of the thread is that Data sites suck. Really, really suck. Primary commodities from Data sites were decriptors, and racial decriptors were quite valuable. But now, they are generalized and except some of the top tier ones, they don't sell for much. Getting carbon from data site is hilarious tho. And all the PI mats as well. Or things like trade goods (weapons and stuff).
CCP needs to go through which items are shared between Data sites and other parts of the game and see readjust. |
ashley Eoner
486
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Posted - 2015.07.23 19:18:51 -
[13] - Quote
Ellatte Silversong wrote:I just finished about 6 hours worth of null sec exploration. All I found were data sites, which nobody seems to do anymore, except for the sleeper sites. I have run into fellow explorers that don't even have a data analyzer, because the Data sites are so worthless.
On a whim, I decided to see how much ISK I could pull out for 4 of them, all in the same system. My grand total? Under 20 million. My total for 6-8 hours of exploration? Under 80 million. This is terrible. I could easily have farmed over 400 million doing level 4 missions, which is boring as hell. Somebody running incursions would have had over 1 billion.
It is extremely depressing to log that much time and run into 1 relic site and not a single sleeper site. It makes exploration seem like a complete waste of time to anybody with a reasonable number of skill points. I have seen this all over EVE- since I travel everywhere.
People who can play off peak hours, which I have done, do far better, but for those of us forced to play at peak times the ISK to time ratio is terrible.
Please look at boosting the base rewards for data sites so that they are worth doing, or increase the spawn rate so that those of us stuck playing at these times can have the opportunity to find more sleeper/relic sites.
Though I have a trading alt to make real ISK, I like exploration- especially during wars with station camping corps, but it is just not worth it with nobody doing the data sites. Your income numbers are badly off.
Level 4s done properly are every bit as much as incursions. Factor in time spent moving and sitting on a waitlist to do an incursion and level 4s pull ahead. As for incursions a billion isk in 8 hours is overly optimistic.
I do agree that data sites currently suck. |
Ellatte Silversong
Drastic Measures. Solyaris Chtonium
1
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Posted - 2015.07.23 19:44:16 -
[14] - Quote
"Level 4s done properly are every bit as much as incursions. Factor in time spent moving and sitting on a waitlist to do an incursion and level 4s pull ahead. As for incursions a billion isk in 8 hours is overly optimistic."
I would generally agree with you, except I don't run the solo burner missions, which really impact my ISK per hour. I have to train up a couple things before I can blitz them all.
I agree that running incursions may not make that kind of ISK if you are running only a couple hours at a time, but people who do long sessions with a good group do very very well from what I have been told. I don't usually have 5-6 hours to play, often just an hour or two a night- so for me, missions are better for exactly the reasons you stated. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2300
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Posted - 2015.07.23 19:56:10 -
[15] - Quote
Please explain Op how long those four sites took you. Not how long you spent ambling through Nullsec looking for something else, but how long those actual four sites took. Then reassess that 20 million. |
Ellatte Silversong
Drastic Measures. Solyaris Chtonium
1
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Posted - 2015.07.23 20:10:36 -
[16] - Quote
"Please explain Op how long those four sites took you"
Roughly half hour or so- including scanning them down, but his doesn't really matter, the ISK per site is so low that even if I found 10 sites in two hours, I would only make about 30 million unless I got really lucky and it would take you at least 3 hours to find 10 sites. You can't work in systems with people, you have to fly from system to system, you end up scanning down a thinks like WH's, which is a waste of time when you are not looking for them and often when you find a couple sites, somebody else shows up and want them as well, which becomes a waiting game with two cloaked ships.
The fact that you asked this question makes me think you don't do a lot of null sec exploration, while I have been doing it for a long time. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2974
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Posted - 2015.07.23 20:14:46 -
[17] - Quote
Ellatte Silversong wrote:I decided to see how much ISK I could pull out for 4 of them, all in the same system. My grand total? Under 20 million. My total for 6-8 hours of exploration? Under 80 million. This is terrible. 20m in 4 sites (average 5m/site), 80m in 6~8 hours (7 average) 80m / 5m = 16 sites in 7 hours Sounds like the OP is terrible at exploration not the loot tables so much.
Are data sites bad, yes but that usually has more to do with everyone looking for a jackpot drop with cargo scanners and if many would just hack and scoop all loot they might find there is more loot in data sites than they realize.
That being said, 3 major things killed Data and to a large extend Relic sites. 1: Loot spew required there to be larger amounts of loot in the site in order to maintain a solo players ability to make ISK from them. This caused stockpiles to build up. 2: Scanning became far easier and signatures were openly displayed as soon as a player entered the system. 3: LP stores getting Datacores and the industry overhaul that removed racial decryptors.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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ashley Eoner
486
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Posted - 2015.07.23 21:50:16 -
[18] - Quote
Ellatte Silversong wrote:"Level 4s done properly are every bit as much as incursions. Factor in time spent moving and sitting on a waitlist to do an incursion and level 4s pull ahead. As for incursions a billion isk in 8 hours is overly optimistic."
I would generally agree with you, except I don't run the solo burner missions, which really impact my ISK per hour. I have to train up a couple things before I can blitz them all.
I agree that running incursions may not make that kind of ISK if you are running only a couple hours at a time, but people who do long sessions with a good group do very very well from what I have been told. I don't usually have 5-6 hours to play, often just an hour or two a night- so for me, missions are better for exactly the reasons you stated. Well you have to account for the epeening too as the various communities like to claim numbers that you will rarely (if ever) see when you run with them. A few TVP FCs in particular likes to post a recruitment with a ridiculously high number that they've only hit once in all these years (stars aligned on contests basically). No one likes to admit that they "suck" and aren't getting MAD ISK BRAW!!.
With missions it's basically plug and play. No dealing with the drama of sites being closed or egos. Just log in take the missions do them and then log out. The convenience to me more then makes up for any potential loss of isk per hour.
Removal of the racial decrypters seemed to be a major factor in the loss of income from data sites. I hard forgotten about datacores being picked up by FW LP stores. |
Nannina Vanaheimr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.07.23 22:10:30 -
[19] - Quote
Ellatte Silversong wrote:6 hours.I could easily have farmed over 400 million doing level 4 missions
Solo? Good luck with that. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2300
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Posted - 2015.07.23 22:14:35 -
[20] - Quote
Ellatte Silversong wrote:"Please explain Op how long those four sites took you"
Roughly half hour or so- including scanning them down, but his doesn't really matter, the ISK per site is so low that even if I found 10 sites in two hours, I would only make about 30 million unless I got really lucky and it would take you at least 3 hours to find 10 sites. You can't work in systems with people, you have to fly from system to system, you end up scanning down a thinks like WH's, which is a waste of time when you are not looking for them and often when you find a couple sites, somebody else shows up and want them as well, which becomes a waiting game with two cloaked ships.
The fact that you asked this question makes me think you don't do a lot of null sec exploration, while I have been doing it for a long time. Actually I had a pretty good idea of the time. The point was to get you saying how long it took you to make 20 million. Half an hour. Not 6-8 hours. It took you half an hour to do 4 data sites for 20 million. You openly said you found a bunch more during that time but chose not to run them.
So you are complaining that you ignored money in front of you because you wanted different money, then never found the different money. Data sites aren't that lucrative sure, but when all you need is a Cov Ops frigate with a cloak and probe launcher, it's not exactly much risk either. |
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Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
159
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Posted - 2015.07.23 22:18:41 -
[21] - Quote
I guess, removing Data Cores from LP stores should fix the problem. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
177
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Posted - 2015.07.23 22:49:47 -
[22] - Quote
Radar sites used to be worth running. Personally I think it was the decryptor changes that ruined them. |
Hal Morsh
Aliastra Gallente Federation
347
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Posted - 2015.07.24 02:47:30 -
[23] - Quote
Isk per hour isn't always the most important thing ever.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
353
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Posted - 2015.07.24 02:58:04 -
[24] - Quote
Is it really a function of how valuable decyrptors, and all the other junk, is worth? Maybe it's more of an industry problem. |
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
49
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Posted - 2015.07.24 03:42:43 -
[25] - Quote
In my area, i usually wait until server population is below 25k before even trying to make exploration worth while. Under 20k usually allows for loot drops/site spawning to be good. This usually means off hours and for a short amount of time. Weekends rarely work and anything over 25k in population and I'm better off doing almost any other activity.
..and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.
To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.
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Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
144
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Posted - 2015.07.24 04:16:06 -
[26] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:[quote=Ellatte Silversong] Data sites aren't that lucrative sure, but when all you need is a Cov Ops frigate with a cloak and probe launcher, it's not exactly much risk either.
If it's so low risk why even bother with the cloak?
Like a cloaky Tengu who has already scanned down the sites waiting for you to uncloak in your frigate never happens...never |
Orlacc
895
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Posted - 2015.07.24 04:34:49 -
[27] - Quote
Hadrian Blackstone wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:[quote=Ellatte Silversong] Data sites aren't that lucrative sure, but when all you need is a Cov Ops frigate with a cloak and probe launcher, it's not exactly much risk either. If it's so low risk why even bother with the cloak? Like a cloaky Tengu who has already scanned down the sites waiting for you to uncloak in your frigate never happens... never
How about a Proteus? Will that do?
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11456
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Posted - 2015.07.24 05:02:39 -
[28] - Quote
Another explorer whine thread? Since the introduction of mini-game exploration, this is the only real fit you need so to win at exploration. I miss the old explorer threads.
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
457
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Posted - 2015.07.24 05:20:39 -
[29] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Such a simple thread quickly derailed by "hurr durr Highsec lvl 4s make so much *money*". LP rewards payout as much as you nullsec crabs are willing to pay, because all the liquid ISK available for trading comes from anoms and incursions. Stop paying mission runners as much as you are and their income will drop. Or start doing regular BLOPs to churn out all the expensive sh*t from NS renters.
The point of the thread is that Data sites suck. Really, really suck. Primary commodities from Data sites were decriptors, and racial decriptors were quite valuable. But now, they are generalized and except some of the top tier ones, they don't sell for much. Getting carbon from data site is hilarious tho. And all the PI mats as well. Or things like trade goods (weapons and stuff).
CCP needs to go through which items are shared between Data sites and other parts of the game and readjust - Data sites need some unique items to sell, perhaps based on emergent events (antikioashdas elements/drifter parts depending on drifter activity, for example), in order to motivate people to start farming them again and start data site BPCs source again.
The BPC's in data sites right now are toilet paper. Ooooh another target spectrum breaker BPC! |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
952
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Posted - 2015.07.24 12:35:19 -
[30] - Quote
This just in... CCP is dumb.
I would post constructively about how I agree with OP and the reasons why exploration is a complete waste of time since Odyssey but it wouldn't do any good.
Not today spaghetti.
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