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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1229
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:36:19 -
[1] - Quote
Why...? |
Avio Yaken
Scope Works
2115
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:43:22 -
[2] - Quote
Who knows...What we do know is that whatever happened is beyond suspicious...
Also...He activated a Entosis link on a Titan...didn't someone report that it was impossible to activate the link on any ship?
(.___________________________________________.)/
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Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
525
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:45:01 -
[3] - Quote
He was ordered several times to disengage and leave. Several. Times.
One doesn't go up to President to give him a high five in the street and expect the security detail not to do something no?
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7354
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:46:54 -
[4] - Quote
This is likewise a concern. Elder Mentor Raish had simply been scanning. While scans are usually frowned upon, he had already desisted, and was moving away at highest speed.
What's more, he was no closer than any other ship in the area, and there were dozens if not hundreds of ships in the area.
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
214
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:51:01 -
[5] - Quote
So in short, it was more important for her Imperial Witchiness to prevent him from getting away with the scan data (which he obtained in accordance with the Yulai Convention) than at least pretending to comply with international laws and accords. This isn't suspicious at all and we should all stop asking questions, surely.
At least her claim that we will never dare set foot there again was quite simply disproven as we came, spoke and then delivered token gifts to the graveyard. With honor and a crooked smile as Aldrith was quick to fire upon us.
I hope the symbolism doesn't require further explanation. |
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
525
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:55:33 -
[6] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:So in short, it was more important for her Imperial Witchiness to prevent him from getting away with the scan data (which he obtained in accordance with the Yulai Convention) than at least pretending to comply with international laws and accords. This isn't suspicious at all and we should all stop asking questions, surely.
At least her claim that we will never dare set foot there again was quite simply disproven as we came, spoke and then delivered token gifts to the graveyard. With honor and a crooked smile as Aldrith was quick to fire upon us.
I hope the symbolism doesn't require further explanation.
Please provide me the CONCORD law that allows one to use what appears to be an Entosis link on a Sovereign CONCORD Signatory's Leader's vessel.
Simpy, saying somethign was legal doesn't make it so. If CONCORD come back, and say it violated some treaty then I'll continue to retort that it was Amarr Space, and they were ordered to stop several times.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7354
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:02:54 -
[7] - Quote
Onzo, Elder Mentor Matshi Raish provided you with that himself.
To quote: Matshi Raish > Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention.
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Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
525
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:04:13 -
[8] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Onzo, Elder Mentor Matshi Raish provided you with that himself.
To quote: Matshi Raish > Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention.
And which section of it allows for the use of entosis links on our Empress' vessel? What existential threat was she?
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7354
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:09:31 -
[9] - Quote
I'd say you'd have to ask Raish that question, Onzo. I'm not a legal scholar.
However, I suspect Raish was knowledgeable. What's more, I can verify that he's dedicated to obeying the dictates of the Convention. When IKAME was under threat of DED reprisal, he was the first one I contacted to seek sanctuary for our personnel. He stated both alarm and opposition, but that "we are also bound by interstellar law, and cannot be party to any activity deemed to be illegal or a risk to interstellar security."
Were it a Matari pilot with a grudge operating the link, I'd not contest the issue at all. However, Elder Mentor Raish was by no means a firebrand or a terrorist, but a scholar gathering data on something that concerned him.
I had been intending to offer her imperial majesty a gift of Drifter Hive Elements as a token of good will. Now, I'm glad the gift wasn't given, as the actions of today are questionable.
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Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
770
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:18:35 -
[10] - Quote
Did anyone else scan the Titan?
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
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Kahar Dex
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
144
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:20:38 -
[11] - Quote
He was warned several times.
He was asked to state his intentions, for which he did not give adequate response.
For all we know, it was a security breach, or the Mentor may have had devious plans with the information acquired from his scans.
The Empress is in far greater knowledge of the affairs of the Empire than any of us. Let none presume.
Ignoring several warnings, and refusing to state intentions, his scans could have compromised sensitive military data or sensitive Imperial information pertinent to the security of Amarr. Furthermore using entosis links, which are known for their mind-controlled based technology reverse engineered from Drifters.
It was a threat. Plain and simple.
His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex of the CVA and Imperial Dreams.
Follow The Cardinal: @kahardex
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Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
526
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:20:58 -
[12] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:Did anyone else scan the Titan?
It's not just the scanning, it was an Entosis link was used on a vessel. I've never seen that take place before.
To think what they're capable of against structures, and for it to be used against the Empress' own vessel..
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
202
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 21:24:03 -
[13] - Quote
Disclaimer: this message does not represent corporate policy in any way and is my own statement.
Capsuleer ships. In close vicinity to the empress. They eagerly destroyed the fleeing science vessel as soon as they understood that there will be no repercussions from CONCORD.
Jamyl Sarum has violated the international law of CONCORD, the same law that the Amarr Empire has sworn to uphold. She issued an order that violated the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention, which authorizes investigation of potential existential threats.
She was warned that the SOCT vessel was operating under this law by Elder Mentor Matshi Raish.
Matshi Raish wrote: Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention authorizes investigation of potential existential threats.
This is an outrage. This is unacceptable. You know who places themselves above everyone else? Above the laws? Criminals. Murderers. Scum that terrorizes the population of our cluster.
Sometimes laws must be neglected for the protection of others, for the cliche of "greater good". Was this such a case? Then who was right in this particular case? I call for a public investigation of this diplomatic incedent. This must not be hushed under the carpet.
That said, I offer a reward for the return of the corpse of Elder Mentor Raish. The bounty is a full set of elements retrieved from Drifter Hives: Barbican, Conflux, Redoubt, Sentinel, Vidette.
Best regards, Jaret Victorian.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
770
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:24:20 -
[14] - Quote
I'd still like to know.
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7354
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Posted - 2015.07.25 21:34:12 -
[15] - Quote
Dex, Vamai was relaying Raish's communications. Let me clip those together.
"We are investigating potential existential threats under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. Our activities are lawful and essential. I repeat the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention authorizes investigation of potential existential threats."
"Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention."
Dex, Onzo, I am not Amarr. I am Caldari. The State has been a dedicated ally of the Empire for decades. However, we are not Imperial subjects. To that end, waving off concern about the Empress Jamyl's actions with statements about how a Society elder mentor looked scary and was doing scary scanning that could mean he was a boogeyman belittles our intelligence and dismisses our concerns.
If the Empire is subject to CONCORD's laws, which it clearly is, then the Imperial fleet fired on a ship that had every right to be where it was.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5371
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:05:24 -
[16] - Quote
To be honest, if the Head of state tells you to stop, you damn well stop if you're in her space.
Nobody should be allowed to ride roughshod over the sovereignty of a people, certainly not because of something as vague as an opinion on what is and is not an 'existential threat to the cluster'. The SOCT ship was free to use it's regular scanners - it chose to use it's weird ass Entosis link instead.
And it was warned.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
896
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:07:34 -
[17] - Quote
An unauthorised ship activating a cyberwarfare device on the ship carrying a head of state.
Hardly surprising that the Navy didn't like that.
And everyone's losing their minds.
But it was ~harmless~ is the cry.
And how do you know that it was harmless ?
Prove it was not an attempt to disable the Empress's vessel, such that it could be attacked.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7355
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:15:03 -
[18] - Quote
Tuulinen-haan, Valate, you're both forgetting one thing. The ship was downed after it was done. It scanned, it scanned some more, and it was headed away from the ship.
Timestamps and all: [20:13:17] Matshi Raish > Very well, we have learned what we needed to learn. [20:13:37] Jamyl Sarum I > Mentor Raish, you leave me no choice. [20:13:50] Jamyl Sarum I > Amarr Navy escort, engage at will.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5371
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:23:40 -
[19] - Quote
So? I used to catch thieves who had finished thieving all the time. Generally speaking, we mostly punish people after they've finished doing wrong.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
202
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:27:47 -
[20] - Quote
To be completely honest you don't see a word combination "existential threat" plus a codicil of some probably long forgotten law waved by scientists at a head of a state.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
896
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:28:22 -
[21] - Quote
Prove that it wasn't a cyberwarfare attack, that had knocked some of the ship's systems offline.
Did the Empress open fire herself ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
202
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:33:09 -
[22] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Prove that it wasn't a cyberwarfare attack, that had knocked some of the ship's systems offline.
Did the Empress open fire herself ? Soil herself with some heathen? Please.
How about they prove they didn't have some Entosis Link receiver onboard? I don't know. Recent tests show that Entosis Link does not even activate on other ships. Only Drifters can do that to others and as far as I remember they do not leave their shps intact when they explode.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7355
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:33:35 -
[23] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:So? I used to catch thieves who had finished thieving all the time. Generally speaking, we mostly punish people after they've finished doing wrong.
The refrain from the Empire so far has been 'clear and present danger,' but he ceases to be a danger the moment he's leaving. All of these cries of 'threat to the Empress' hold no value if he's already headed away. What's more, it doesn't sound as if Raish was looking for state secrets, or secret ways to undermine the Empress. Maker help me, he's Society. They're academics, not assassins.
Frankly, all this does is make me wonder what he's looking for.
And to be honest, Tuulinen, I'm going to side with the person who seeks knowledge in most cases.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
896
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:43:12 -
[24] - Quote
A thousand years ago, the Imperial Guard shot and killed a thief who had stolen one of the then Empress Consort's undergarments.
He was heading away from the palace, and was thus no threat to the Empress.
Makes you wonder what he was looking for, doesn't it ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Goldfinch
House Rkard
190
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:45:59 -
[25] - Quote
The following is our legal opinion.
- Matshi Raish had an Entosis Link equipped on his ship, as per the Kill Report. His ship was also armed to the teeth with offensive modules.
- Activating an Entosis Link incurs a Weapons Flag
- Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation
- Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD
- Matshi Raish quotes a ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. However, we are not aware of any Yulai Convention article that allows a non-CONCORD entity to take an action incurring a Weapons Flag against another non-Criminal flagged entity in High Security Space.
- Special security precautions are to be expected when a dignitary like the Empress traverses weapons free space. Activating an offensive module (the Entosis Link) would justify an reflexive security response.
- CONCORD did not retaliate against weapons free offensive action against Matshi Raish's ship, which indicates to us that no Yulai Convention laws were broken by the Empress or any allied ships.
Conclusion: Matshi Raish may have been correctly interpreting ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention when considering his intent, but his execution of that intent using an offensive module and incurring a Weapons Flag would be against Yulai Convention rules.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7355
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Detain, try, execute according to the law. Or does the rule of law not apply, when the Empress disagrees with the Yulai Convention?
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Goldfinch
House Rkard
190
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:50:44 -
[27] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Detain, try, execute according to the law. Or does the rule of law not apply, when the Empress disagrees with the Yulai Convention?
An assassin cannot have any reasonable expectation of detention and trial in a volatile situation where his would-be target is not secured by their protection detail, and he has already discharged a weapon.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7356
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:58:09 -
[28] - Quote
This hurts my brain.
Alright. We have an elder mentor of an organization that runs educational institutions conducting scans in what is essentially a public place, in a Gnosis, on an Avatar. What you're calling an offensive module does no damage, and has no effect on capsuleer ships. I know this, having tested these things extensively.
Explain to me how this makes him an assassin who discharged his weapon, a credible threat despite the established fact that CONCORD clearly didn't care. Explain it like I'm five, because your logic is frankly baffling to me now.
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works
485
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:04:08 -
[29] - Quote
What kind of idiot would think approaching any military ship unannounced, never mind the empress, during a public speech is a good idea? Who cares what she's hiding I just find how trusting the imperial navy was as suspect. Is that not a little strange or am I the only one who finds their weak security odd?
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Tiberious Thessalonia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
2446
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:05:25 -
[30] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:This hurts my brain.
Alright. We have an elder mentor of an organization that runs educational institutions
Boy, are you naive. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
557
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:08:22 -
[31] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote: Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD And CONCORD did not fire - therefore, he was not violating any aggression standards upheld by CONCORD.
By the same token, neither the Empress, nor anyone following her orders, violated any laws. As I have said elsewhere, this is made manifest and obvious because (a) She got away with it, and (b) She had the biggest guns on the field - and more of them available if she needed them.
Does anyone really think there are any circumstances where CONCORD is going to open fire on a head of state in their own space? CONCORD's big and all, but fleets of thousands of super-battleships don't build themselves; CONCORD still requires funding by the Empires. They're not going to throw away a quarter of it inciting the entire Amarr Empire to hate them. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7356
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:12:03 -
[32] - Quote
Vess, the Empress's ship had been scanned a number of times before it had cleared the Emperor Family Station in Amarr. During her appearance last week, she had been rammed repeatedly by Capsuleers who wanted to impede her travel. Last time and this time, I believe pilots had engaged her despite CONCORD rules, simply to make a political statement.
Unfortunately, this is a normal situation when a political leader's ship enters space.
My issue here is this: Raish's ship was downed under suspect circumstances. While clearly the situation was provocative, he was not clearly hostile, nor aggressive. All I want is more information, to establish what exactly Raish thought he was researching, and why exactly the Empress thought his scans were so much more threatening than anyone else's. Had she stated he was attempting to suborn ship's systems, or had the Empress's ship began to malfunction, then he was obviously a clear and present danger. Were it a Matari attempting novel scans, I would likewise not question the situation.
However, failing those things, we're presented with a situation where Raish, a representative of a reputable academic institution, was met with a response disproportionate to his actions.
This raises questions.
That the Empire loyalists seem intent on completely dismissing my concern is frankly insulting.
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
202
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:14:22 -
[33] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote:The following is our legal opinion. Conclusion: Matshi Raish may have been correctly interpreting ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention when considering his intent, but his execution of that intent using an offensive module and incurring a Weapons Flag would be against Yulai Convention rules. The thing is that he was interpriting it correctly as CONCORD did not intervene. Heused his device... whatever more than once and was only set free-for-all after that order.
All my Shield Emission Systems along with the drones that were on his ship went offline as soon as that happened. After he said he was done and complied with the order to leave.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
896
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 23:14:26 -
[34] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote: All I want is more information, to establish what exactly Raish thought he was researching.
The vulnerability of Imperial capital ships to Entosis link cyberwarfare.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Goldfinch
House Rkard
193
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:19:21 -
[35] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:This hurts my brain. Alright. We have an elder mentor of an organization that runs educational institutions conducting scans in what is essentially a public place, in a Gnosis, on an Avatar. What you're calling an offensive module does no damage, and has no effect on capsuleer ships. I know this, having tested these things extensively. Explain to me how this makes him an assassin who discharged his weapon, a credible threat despite the established fact that CONCORD clearly didn't care. Explain it like I'm five, because your logic is frankly baffling to me now.
We are in uncharted space with Drifter Technology. We appreciate your efforts and those of [IKAME] to decipher and determine the capabilities of the Entosis Link.
Nonetheless, we may be forced to conclude that your analysis (specifically the test conducted by Ms. Lagann against a Capsuleer ship) must have been incomplete, since it appears the Empress's ship** was indeed targeted by Matshi Raish with an Entosis Link, which he subequently discharged.
Being that your knowledge of Drifter Technology does not include information that Matshi Raish may have been privy to, it would not be unreasonable to consider the activation of the module as an offensive act. We understand you want to defend this person, but it seems to us that you may not be fully aware of what exactly he was doing.
Drifters are the threat to the cluster. They have invaded Amarr Empire en masse and opened fire on allies in view of Emperor Family Academy. Do you consider it prudent to react callously to undocumented, offensive use of their technology?
** Please do not interpret our statement as a comment on the Empress's identity as a Capsuleer or a clone or any such heretical supposition.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
406
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:21:20 -
[36] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote:The following is our legal opinion.
- Matshi Raish had an Entosis Link equipped on his ship, as per the Kill Report. His ship was also armed to the teeth with offensive modules.
- Activating an Entosis Link incurs a Weapons Flag
- Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation
- Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD
- Matshi Raish quotes a ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. However, we are not aware of any Yulai Convention article that allows a non-CONCORD entity to take an action incurring a Weapons Flag against another non-Criminal flagged entity in High Security Space.
- Special security precautions are to be expected when a dignitary like the Empress traverses weapons free space. Activating an offensive module (the Entosis Link) would justify an reflexive security response.
- CONCORD did not retaliate against weapons free offensive action against Matshi Raish's ship, which indicates to us that no Yulai Convention laws were broken by the Empress or any allied ships.
Conclusion: Matshi Raish may have been correctly interpreting ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention when considering his intent, but his execution of that intent using an offensive module and incurring a Weapons Flag would be against Yulai Convention rules.
Thank you for the thorough and insightful legal analysis. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7356
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:24:24 -
[37] - Quote
As said, suspect circumstances.
Had the Amarr opened fire the moment Raish had initiated an Entosis Link, I would have considered it no issue. He was, however, operating that link for several minutes, and had then had declared that he was done. It was at this point that he was engaged.
While clearly acting provocatively in a situation like this will result in consequences, and that consequence was the destruction of the Society Gnosis, the entire situation raises questions.
Do not brush these questions away arbitrarily.
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works
487
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:26:51 -
[38] - Quote
Knowing what he was researching I can understand the desire to know that. Though I do also wonder why as someone of a reputable academy he couldn't request to make these scans. Anyone writing a paper at a scholarly level would have to ask permission to use other peoples work, or to use their equipment. What he did is not the same as if you or I did it, that's absolutely right. Really I don't get why anyone was allowed near her in general. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
558
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Posted - 2015.07.26 00:07:09 -
[39] - Quote
Because with multiple Aeons as an escort, she was in no danger whatsoever from the combined firepower of every subcapital ship present. Apparently, she felt the Entosis Link was a threat - or perhaps the research was. |
Sahriah BloodStone
Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum
151
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Posted - 2015.07.26 00:30:57 -
[40] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote:
Matshi Raish quotes a ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. However, we are not aware of any Yulai Convention article that allows a non-CONCORD entity to take an action incurring a Weapons Flag against another non-Criminal flagged entity in High . Perhaps if CONCORD was more competent and willing to release the documents pertaining to the laws we should be following, miscommunication like this wouldn't happen.
Regardless, the Gnosis was no threat to a titan, escorted by a fleet of super carriers and Capsuleers and was retreating at the time of its destruction. They simply could have taken him into custody instead of destroying the vessel, then perhaps they would have someone to interrogate instead of being blind to his intentions.
The Empress has a trigger finger not unlike most Capsuleers.
"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
970
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 01:19:09 -
[41] - Quote
Matshi Raish wrote:Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention authorizes investigation of potential existential threats. The key phrase here is "investigation of potential existential threats". I saw no potential existential threats to anyone on the field today, only Her Imperial Majesty, her escorts, and a hundred or so capsuleers. This would seem to render his quotation of the Yulai Convention void and moot.
If the Elder Mentor could explain what existential threat he and the SoCT believes the Empress and/or her ship presents and whom, I would love to hear it. I am sure it would be utter nonsense, but I'd still like to hear his justifications. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7364
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 01:31:58 -
[42] - Quote
I wonder, Shutaq, Raholan, if you're perhaps biased in this situation.
Raish acted provocatively, absolutely, but he did not attack the Empress any more than a dozen other Capsuleers did once she undocked. How many times did ships intercept hers, collide with hers, scan hers? The Empress reported no damage, no system failures, no fault of any type during the engagement of an Entosis Link. Indeed, Raish was withdrawing when the order to engage was given.
Please be sensible about this.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
970
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 01:37:03 -
[43] - Quote
A scan produces information. Information can be used as a weapon. Simply put, what he did was espionage. Blatant, audacious secret delving for reasons unknown, not unlike what the Sleepers and Drifters were doing just weeks ago in the Empire. The Empress had just delivered a speech outlining how this was a threat.
I think you need to be sensible about this. If I saw you going through the ship schematics on my office desk and your only explanation was 'I think you are dangerous', I'd hit you in the head and escort you out. That is the equivalent of what happened today. You are foolish to believe things could or should have happened any differently. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7366
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 01:46:39 -
[44] - Quote
Raish is a spy, an assassin, a thief. These are the comparisons I've heard made today, for an elder mentor of the Society who was withdrawing after having completed his scans.
If I were to break into your home and take pictures of you, it'd unprecedented invasion. If you're in public and I take pictures of you there, you have no recourse at all. If the systems aboard a vessel in space are not secure against the scans that CONCORD clearly doesn't consider worthy of a supect tag, then they are near enough to public.
Let me present you a situation. Shakor is in space, convoying between Rens and Hek for the purpose of delivering a celebratory pony. Between those points, a Sisters of EVE vessel appears at one of the waypoints and, unsolicited, initiates unknown scans on Shakor's ship, saying simply. "These are legal and I have reasons." Shakor destroys the Sister ship. Would you not then say that this was another sign of his warmongering?
Let me present a less hypothetical situation. Admiral Yanala is in low orbit over Caldari Prime. A CONCORD vessel appears in low orbit over the planet, and initiates scans, saying that the captain is within his rights to scan the planet. Yanala destroys the CONCORD ship. Is Yanala not then at least a little bit responsible for what follows?
Frankly, Shutaq, you're as well as blind on this matter.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5448
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Posted - 2015.07.26 01:49:34 -
[45] - Quote
Kahar Dex wrote: He was warned several times.
He was asked to state his intentions, for which he did not give adequate response.
For all we know, it was a security breach, or the Mentor may have had devious plans with the information acquired from his scans.
The Empress is in far greater knowledge of the affairs of the Empire than any of us. Let none presume.
Ignoring several warnings, and refusing to state intentions, his scans could have compromised sensitive military data or sensitive Imperial information pertinent to the security of Amarr. Furthermore using entosis links, which are known for their mind-controlled based technology reverse engineered from Drifters.
It was a threat. Plain and simple.
He violated no laws and was not required to comply with orders from the Imperial Navy since he was operating under CONCORD jurisdiction, as all capsuleers do.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
316
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 01:57:28 -
[46] - Quote
Why is this even a debate?
The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.
If you're Amarr, you should have no questions regarding her actions.
If you're not Amarr, this was an internal security matter and quite frankly, none of your damn business.
If after these words, you still have a problem, take it up with CONCORD because in their lack of action or statement they have sanctioned this.
I hope I've clarified this. Thank you and let's all try to have a better tomorrow.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Michael Pawlicki
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2015.07.26 01:58:10 -
[47] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Onzo, Elder Mentor Matshi Raish provided you with that himself.
To quote: Matshi Raish > Empress Jamyl, I say in public that our presence and actions here are lawful under the terms of the ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention.
And which section of it allows for the use of entosis links on our Empress' vessel? What existential threat was she?
Maybe he was confirming if she was one. That bodes ill. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
18842
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 01:58:18 -
[48] - Quote
We seem to be ignoring the fact that a device similar to an Entosis Link was utilized; there is no mechanism susceptible to Entosis within any ships that we fly - much less capsules. The only explanation for this exhibited usage is that the Empress possesses something that can either route or contain an infomorph, separate from the standard bodies we use as capsuleers. This is a strange possibility, and one that would hold curious consequences if expanded upon. There is something to the Empress that we don't know; the Society, however, knows something more.
Matshi Raish wrote:Very well, we have learned what we needed to learn. If the Empress is an "Existential threat", then we had best be prepared for whatever may come next. Matshi Raish and the Society know more than we do concerning these emergent threats, and we had best pay attention to every event in order to understand more ourselves.
Knowledge is our most powerful ally.
-Uriel
"A City made of Dreams...is built in heaven" - GÖâ-
GPƒ U-Ç+¬ß¦ç-ƒ's Sߦ¢ß¦Å-Ç-Å
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
970
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:00:41 -
[49] - Quote
The leader of a sovereign nation is obliged to act and order as they see fit within their own nation. Simply put, the entire Empire is the Empress's home, just as the Republic is Shakor's home and Caldari Prime is Yanala's de jure (though, alas, not de facto) home. Yes, Shakor would be within his legal rights to fire upon the Sisters ship. The example with Admiral Yanala, God rest her soul, is a more complicated matter, but I would argue that yes, she has the right to refuse scans from CONCORD. They constitute a search of property, a violation of privacy, and a potential hostile act as the information gained can be used to compromise the security of the individual and ship scanned. I am not biased in this regard.
But yes, I am a citizen of the Empire and I have sworn to uphold and protect the Empire and all of its facets, the Empress especially. Do you seriously expect me, or anyone else who considers themselves an Imperial loyalist, to refuse an order from the Empress herself? Imperial law applies in Imperial space. The Empress's word is Imperial law. CONCORD has no right to dictate what she does, as CONCORD treaty also includes allowances for national sovereignty. The only potential clause that might have saved the Elder Mentor fro, legal recourse was the codicil he quoted but conveniently neglected to explain just who was threatened and how.
There was no clear justification for Matshi Raish's actions. The Empire took offense to his undiplomatic actions. We took our own undiplomatic actions in return. Deal with it. |
Michael Pawlicki
Aliastra Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:03:58 -
[50] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:We seem to be ignoring the fact that a device similar to an Entosis Link was utilized; there is no mechanism susceptible to Entosis within any ships that we fly - much less capsules. The only explanation for this exhibited usage is that the Empress possesses something that can either route or contain an infomorph, separate from the standard bodies we use as capsuleers. This is a strange possibility, and one that would hold curious consequences if expanded upon. There is something to the Empress that we don't know; the Society, however, knows something more. Matshi Raish wrote:Very well, we have learned what we needed to learn. If the Empress is an "Existential threat", then we had best be prepared for whatever may come next. I'd very much like to go down and see what the Society has to say, in addition to a massive apology to Mentor Raish for my assisting in destroying his vessel. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
559
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:05:17 -
[51] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:A scan produces information. Information can be used as a weapon. Simply put, what he did was espionage. Blatant, audacious secret delving for reasons unknown, not unlike what the Sleepers and Drifters were doing just weeks ago in the Empire. The Empress had just delivered a speech outlining how this was a threat.
You know... 'Blatant' and 'audacious', I'll give you, but considering he did it in plain sight of everyone there... it was hardly 'secret delving'.
We know that the Circadian Seekers can use Entosis links on ships. They scanned The Game is Rigged more than once in ED-L9T before she was destroyed. So obviously, the Society's got a better grasp on this tech than we do. That's hardly shocking - the Society has had Jovian backing, and this tech is blatantly ripped off from the Jovians.
We've all been scanned by it at some point. I've seen titans scanned, no ill-effects. Anything they were going to find on a regular Avatar, I have to assume the Society already knows about.
So what were they looking for? Because whatever it was, she didn't order him executed until he told her he'd gotten it. And if all he needed was the answer to a yes/no question, like 'Do the Amarr know how to use X technology yet?' then killing a capsuleer's meatsuit doesn't exactly prevent that answer from getting passed back.
So why even bother?
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7372
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:09:58 -
[52] - Quote
The law, Shutaq, is generally that anything observable from a public space does not require special permissions. The volume within which a public event is occurring is, by necessity, a public space. Essentially, if the SOCT is normally permitted to be in that space, then they are permitted to observe what occurs in that space. The novel use of an Entosis Link evidently constitutes an observation.
As regards the situation, no, I'd never ask you to refuse the Empress's order. I'd ask you to admit that this is damned strange, and that while Raish acted provocatively, the Empress may possibly have acted disproportionately.
Evidently that's beyond you.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
220
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:12:55 -
[53] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Raish is a spy, an assassin, a thief. These are the comparisons I've heard made today, for an elder mentor of the Society who was withdrawing after having completed his scans.
If I were to break into your home and take pictures of you, it'd unprecedented invasion. If you're in public and I take pictures of you there, you have no recourse at all. If the systems aboard a vessel in space are not secure against the scans that CONCORD clearly doesn't consider worthy of a supect tag, then they are near enough to public.
Let me present you a situation. Shakor is in space, convoying between Rens and Hek for the purpose of delivering a celebratory pony. Between those points, a Sisters of EVE vessel appears at one of the waypoints and, unsolicited, initiates unknown scans on Shakor's ship, saying simply. "These are legal and I have reasons." Shakor destroys the Sister ship. Would you not then say that this was another sign of his warmongering?
And risk the life and health of the pony? Spirits below, that's KoS offense.
Like I've said elsewhere, it frankly doesn't matter to me if this was legal or not. I'm reasonably sure he broke no laws and it was thus an unprovoked murder of his crew, but it doesn't really matter. The biggest guns determine who gets to do what on a field, and in this case the firepower favored the Empress.
I'm more interested in finding out what got her **** in a twist, because it was quite obviously no danger to her ship or crew as he was already leaving. This implies that him getting away with whatever scan data he has was the real threat.
If the Tribal leaders started murdering people over being scanned in public, I'd start having some very pointed questions for them about what they have to hide and I would be hard-pressed not to demand answers, pony or not.
Of course, I don't tend to fall to my knees and lose sight of any human being's capacity to be a bastard just because they become a head of state, so I guess I can't relate to the Amarrian side of things. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
18842
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:16:07 -
[54] - Quote
And indeed, the fact that the attack order was called after Elder Mentor Raish had completed his operation is curious; what did he do to the Empress? The beam he utilized was beyond that of the Entosis link fitted to his ship. In fact, its effect was identical to that of the Seeker and Drifter mechanisms that the Links were derived from.
I have loyalty to the Society; I wish to know why they have taken such strange and direct action.
"A City made of Dreams...is built in heaven" - GÖâ-
GPƒ U-Ç+¬ß¦ç-ƒ's Sߦ¢ß¦Å-Ç-Å
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Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
316
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:24:22 -
[55] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:And indeed, the fact that the attack order was called after Elder Mentor Raish had completed his operation is curious; what did he do to the Empress? The beam he utilized was beyond that of the Entosis link fitted to his ship. In fact, its effect was identical to that of the Seeker and Drifter mechanisms that the Links were derived from.
I have loyalty to the Society; I wish to know why they have taken such strange and direct action.
Look above for your answer.
And ask CONCORD.
The EMPRESS does not answer to you.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5448
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:25:02 -
[56] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Why is this even a debate?
The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation. The Amarr Empire is a CONCORD signatory. Just because you people believe that an invisible supreme being for whose evidence there exists no serious scientific proof allows certain people among your number to do pretty much whatever you wish doesn't mean that you can go about violating CONCORD's charter on a whim here in the real world.
And let's face it, if this had been anyone else - Shakor or Roden, in particular - the Empire would be clamouring for blood.
Also, Mokk, a personal note - you probably shut the hell up whenever matters of the Empire are afoot. Don't think your alleged sudden rediscovery of your roots excuses your tenure with the Angel Cartel.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
562
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 02:36:47 -
[57] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Why is this even a debate?
The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.
Because she ain't even given me my bloody coffee yet! I sent the invoice hours ago, it doesn't take that long to sent an order in to the cafe in YA0 station. |
Lord Kailethre
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
189
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 03:13:48 -
[58] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:Why is this even a debate?
The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.
Because she ain't even given me my bloody coffee yet! I sent the invoice hours ago, it doesn't take that long to sent an order in to the cafe in YA0 station.
You're really craving that caffeine, aren't you? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
564
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 03:21:09 -
[59] - Quote
Lord Kailethre wrote:You're really craving that caffeine, aren't you?
It's the principle of the thing!
Principally... cuz yeah, I am. Stupid joneses.... |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1686
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 05:36:59 -
[60] - Quote
Since when is activating an Entosis Link on any object "mere scanning"? It is an aggressive act, targeted at compromising a ship's, station's or otherwise system's integrity and to gain control over or allow others to take control over it. Every Null sec empire, small or large, pretty much agrees on that and reactions partially brutal force to any other capsuleer trying that on their structures. And Mentor Raish did attack her Empress' ship more than 4 times despite formal, polite requests to cease and desist. I find this hypocrisy highly pathetic.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
224
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 05:57:09 -
[61] - Quote
And yet the ship is entirely unharmed and the Gnosis was retreating. No order to fire was given while it was active, and the titan was under the watchful eye of multiple logistics capable carriers.
No, sure, it was a terrible threat as it was leaving the graveyards.
Which is actually our point. It was ordered destroyed after it was done and was leaving, which suggests it has obtained something important, likely information garnered from a scan or other information gathering. This merits discussion and questioning.
Also, I'm not entirely sure anxious screaming counts as "formal and polite". |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5448
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 06:10:02 -
[62] - Quote
If Raish has any level of intelligence - and, well, he holds a leadership position in SOCT, so that's a fair assumption - he had an active communications link to a vastly less vulnerable data storage device while making that scan. It's a fair assumption to make that whatever he wanted to know, he discovered, and he has the data to back it up.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1686
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 06:27:06 -
[63] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:And yet the ship is entirely unharmed and the Gnosis was retreating. No order to fire was given while it was active, and the titan was under the watchful eye of multiple logistics capable carriers.
No, sure, it was a terrible threat as it was leaving the graveyards.
Which is actually our point. It was ordered destroyed after it was done and was leaving, which suggests it has obtained something important, likely information garnered from a scan or other information gathering. This merits discussion and questioning.
Also, I'm not entirely sure anxious screaming counts as "formal and polite". It was certainly not retreating. I was watching it directly until it blew up and even at the end it was idling around way closer than the requested 100 kilometers from the Titan, showing no sign of aligning out to some place or preparing for warp. I was very well under the watchful eyes of logistics forces, but no one knows what harm or sabotage one can inflict to current Empire technology with Drifter technology. It could very well trigger a chain reaction in the Titan's reactors and cause catastrophic explosions. My best guess is that this is what Matshi Raish found out. Whatever it is, however, Entosis Linking is an aggressive act aimed at compromising operation systems of the target. He refused to stop, even after several requests, which are all recorded. I am very certain that the Ninth Codicil does not cover these actions. It maybe does cover the first linking event if he had stopped and retreated, but not several ignored requests from an official navy commander.
You might want to check the logs in the other discussion; I do not see anxious screaming. While capital letters certainly indicate childish hue and cry in the capsuleer world's communication, a raised voice from an official navy commander to convey his authority does not qualify as screaming. Amarr navy personnel have more composure than most if not all capsuleers in the face of a threat.
While discussion and questioning are certainly in order, they should be based on actual events and facts and not romanticized or warped evidence.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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iyammarrok
Virtually Anonymous Milk Of The Poppy
384
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 07:23:22 -
[64] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Goldfinch wrote: Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD And CONCORD did not fire - therefore, he was not violating any aggression standards upheld by CONCORD. By the same token, neither the Empress, nor anyone following her orders, violated any laws. As I have said elsewhere, this is made manifest and obvious because (a) She got away with it, and (b) She had the biggest guns on the field - and more of them available if she needed them.
One important caveat here. any navy can, at will, set someone to suspect or criminal within their own space, performing this action invalidates CONCORD threat response should that (now suspect/criminal) vessel be fired upon.
as has been noted by some of her supporters, simply claiming an act or entity is criminal, does not make it so.
To answer the question of whether other vessels were scanning the Avatar, I have been told that many vessels had the titan locked, and several forms of scan were underway at the time.
The fact that the order to fire was given after the SoCT vessel had completed it's scans and begun to retreat is damning by it's very nature. Especially if we consider the nature of the only information known to have been gleaned by the use of an Entosis Link.
That the empress would decide that the information gained during an investigation into possible 'existential threats' was worth killing to keep out of SoCT hands, is troubling indeed.
-Idama Tertianus Rethelior
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
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iyammarrok
Virtually Anonymous Milk Of The Poppy
384
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 07:51:56 -
[65] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: Whatever it is, however, Entosis Linking is an aggressive act aimed at compromising operation systems of the target.
[snip]
While discussion and questioning are certainly in order, they should be based on actual events and facts and not romanticized or warped evidence.
Ok. actual events and facts.
1) the Entosis link you are adamant was being used upon the Titan, cannot target and be activated upon capsuleer vessels.
2) The drifter variant of an entosis link can.
3) while an entosis link can, after several uses and days, cause the offlining of several key safety systems within sovereignty structures, this is likely, due to their very nature, purposeful.
4) drifter variants of the entosis link do not appear to cause any adverse effects whatsoever.
"While discussion and questioning are certainly in order, they should be based on actual events and facts and not romanticized or warped evidence."
your own assertions do not follow your latter demand.
-Idama Tertianus Rethelior
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1686
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 08:07:28 -
[66] - Quote
How do you know that the Entosis Link in his vessel was the same technology we have access to? What makes you think that the Drifter EL do not cause adverse effects on the scanned systems? It is intriguing that you seem to know more about these links than the collective mind of the Empire scientific community. Whether it cannot be activated on capsuleer vessels is of no importance, it was used against the Empress' Titan, which puts your 1st point into question. That it purposefully takes days to compromise structures with the ELs we have access to, does not change the fact that the SOCT ship could use the link on the Titan. It is thus very unlikely that it's the same EL-Technology. It also does not change the fact that ELing anything is an aggressive act, which the SOCT person was requested to cease and desist, but chose to ignore and to continue to activate aggressive modules against the Empress' vessel.
You, among other people, are, however, very adamant about that this was just "scanning" like it was a pesky ship or cargo scanner. Several capsuleers used ship and cargo scanners on the Empress' titan and she did not display any concern about these. However, actively trying to compromise her ship's systems and function is not "just scanning". Thus, my points stand.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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iyammarrok
Virtually Anonymous Milk Of The Poppy
384
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 08:26:17 -
[67] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:How do you know that the Entosis Link in his vessel was the same technology we have access to? What makes you think that the Drifter EL do not cause adverse effects on the scanned systems? It is intriguing that you seem to know more about these links than the collective mind of the Empire scientific community. Whether it cannot be activated on capsuleer vessels is of no importance, it was used against the Empress' Titan, which puts your 1st point into question. That it purposefully takes days to compromise structures with the ELs we have access to, does not change the fact that the SOCT ship could use the link on the Titan. It is thus very unlikely that it's the same EL-Technology. It also does not change the fact that ELing anything is an aggressive act, which the SOCT person was requested to cease and desist, but chose to ignore and to continue to activate aggressive modules against the Empress' vessel.
You, among other people, are, however, very adamant about that this was just "scanning" like it was a pesky ship or cargo scanner. Several capsuleers used ship and cargo scanners on the Empress' titan and she did not display any concern about these. However, actively trying to compromise her ship's systems and function is not "just scanning". Thus, my points stand.
The CONCORD generated ship loss notification shows that he had a standard Entosis link fitted. The Entosis link has been tested upon all classes of capsuleer vessel. It does not activate.
I have personally been scanned by drifter variant entosis links on multiple occasions, they have no adverse effects.
While the use of a standard entosis link is indeed an act of aggression, the gnosis did not gain a suspect flag until it desisted in it's scan. This fact alone shows that the scan made was not an aggressive act.
The fact that the suspect flag occurred after the end of the scan, is proof enough that the Navy personnel present set the Gnosis suspect manually in order to allow capsuleer combat against the vessel without CONCORD interference.
Your repeated assertions therefore that the scan performed was an attempt to "compromise her ship's systems" are based not on fact, but on opinion or 'romanticized or warped evidence'
As it has been PROVEN, that the Entosis link that you repeatedly refer to, cannot be activated upon any capsuleer piloted vessel, then any further claims as to it's effect are completely void. Your argument and point, therefore collapses under it's own weight.
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
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Haruchai Khan
87
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Posted - 2015.07.26 08:35:51 -
[68] - Quote
It should not surprise anyone that subjects of the Empress accept the Amarr version of events unquestioningly.
What should concern all of the other governments of New Eden is that this action, in context, strongly indicates the Empire is seeking to establish a military advantage. First, we have the announcement of new technology for battleships. Now, the Society is concerned enough about developments to want to scan the Empress' flagship on the pretext of 'existential threat'. The information gained from that scan is important enough for the Empress to demand his utter destruction.
It is legally arguable that while the Empire promulgates her doctrine on Reclaiming in its unreformed character, Amarr is - by definition - an existential threat to the rest of the cluster. Who would argue that if Amarr once again held an significant advantage in power, they would not 'reclaim' all others? That they would not immediately discard all treaties as heresy?
The only restraint on the Empire which forces them to respect the rights of others and the treaties they have signed is opposing power. Thus, a balance of power. Were this balance to become disturbed too far in their favour, they would immediately return to enslaving other worlds. All other governments and organisations therefore have the right to take defensive actions which preserve the balance, and it is in this context that I would argue Elder Raish was acting in the best interests of New Eden. The peaceful acquisition of knowledge that prevents an arms race or an offensive first strike capability can only be good for maintaining the balance.
We can only hope that the Society had sufficient data links that the information has been recorded elsewhere.
One other thought. The Empress ordered the destruction of the Gnosis after it had gained its information. She must suspect that the data had already been sent elsewhere, thus the destruction was theatre only. The Empress has, in the past, made moves to bring Amarr into line with more progressive and cooperative relations with the other governments, despite fierce internal opposition from hardline traditionalists.
Maybe there exists a 'super-weapon' that may soon be deployed offensively. Maybe the Empress knows that whatever advantage this might offer now, it gives hardliners an excuse for an immediate and major war, which can long-term only harm Amarr. Maybe the odd timing of the destruction of Elder Raish's ship allows its data to be shared and counter-measures taken, but in so doing she appears, not as an appeaser, but to her religious fanatics as an uncompromising, martial imperator, fearless of CONCORD if the defence of the realm.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1687
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 09:01:48 -
[69] - Quote
iyammarrok wrote:As it has been PROVEN, that the Entosis link that you repeatedly refer to, cannot be activated upon any capsuleer piloted vessel, then any further claims as to it's effect are completely void. Your argument and point, therefore collapses under it's own weight. Do you really believe that the Jove supported SOCT could not have a modulated, altered version disguised as a simple T2 EL we know? That is described as naive at best. But continue to believe it, by all means. The fact that the navy did not suspect flag this aggression right away only shows that they were expecting a peaceful desisting from him. However, after outright boasting in local that he had accomplished his mission, a suspect flag to allow his termination was a completely comprehensible course of action.
What you want to depict as warped evidence in my assertion of the matter is also interesting. Whether the EL cannot be activated on capsuleer vessels is important to the matter at hand how? The EL was activated repeatedly on the Empress' Titan, not a capsuleer vessel. That is an aggressive act against her ship, which was not stopped after repeated requests. He never desisted, it stopped only after he "learned what they needed to learn". That is not desisting, that is completing a mission. An interesting turn of events would be if Jamyl Sarum I was indeed a capsuleer, as rumors say. This would mean that EL could be activated on capsuleer vessels. Interesting to see how that will end.
Just because you cannot detect any adverse affects on your ship directly after the linking event, does not rule out or prove lack of any insertion of hidden, disguised code or otherwise compromising elements. It currently cannot be proven that no adverse elements are inserted or effects take place delayed. Saying otherwise is also nothing but naive.
I wonder where my argument crumbles. vOv
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
92
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 10:02:17 -
[70] - Quote
As a quick clarification: The Empress is a capsuleer. All the heirs of Emperor Heideran VII were. None, however, were clones. At the Inauguration, each of their pods' TEBS scanners were disable and they self destructed their pods in submission to God's will. In His Divine Mercy, the Lord God returned Empress Jamyl Sarum I to us, to save us from the Minmatar attack and lead the Empire with her Holy wisdom. May the Lord preserve her and guide her.
News source.
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1232
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 10:31:37 -
[71] - Quote
Several factors are to be taken into account:
- CONCORD ninth codicil invokes the right to scan any ship freely in search of existential threats. This implies that something aboard that Avatar class titan was considered as a potential threat by SoCT, that initiated a scan.
- The SCT Enlightment was the only one asked to leave under threats of destruction. All other capsuleer ships colliding, scanning, or even using fireworks on the various military vessels of the Imperial Guard and Her Majesty's ship were never threatened. This implies that the SoCT was considered here a direct threat to the Amarr Empire, or to the Empress fleet at the very least.
- An entosis module was used and somehow connected with Her Majesty's ship, contrary to any normal behavior of those modules. Either the SoCT used a different modified version of those links, or either Her Majesty's ship contained something unique that allowed entosis interaction.
- SCT Enlightment complied with the ultimatum sent by the Imperial Guard, and yet was ordered to be destroyed when retiring, after the scan was completed. This directly implies that the IG considered that something of value had been scanned, and that this something was meant to remain hidden.
- Considering the Elder Mentor actions, I would assume that gathering the data was probably priority number one, and the rest only secondary, including the safety of the ship.
Make any conclusions out of this as you wish... I still mark that day as a warning for when something eventually leaks out.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote: There is something to the Empress that we don't know; the Society, however, knows something more.
If there is something I have learned, it is that the Society always knows something more. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1232
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 10:38:17 -
[72] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:Why is this even a debate?
The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation. The Amarr Empire is a CONCORD signatory. Just because you people believe that an invisible supreme being for whose evidence there exists no serious scientific proof allows certain people among your number to do pretty much whatever you wish doesn't mean that you can go about violating CONCORD's charter on a whim here in the real world. And let's face it, if this had been anyone else - Shakor or Roden, in particular - the Empire would be clamouring for blood. Also, Mokk, a personal note - you probably shut the hell up whenever matters of the Empire are afoot. Don't think your alleged sudden rediscovery of your roots excuses your tenure with the Angel Cartel.
Can we leave the ad-hominem on religion at the door, please...?
If I recall correctly, the Minmatar Republic, the Caldari State, the Ida and even the Garoun culture all have their own deeply ingrained religions, and they all involve invisible supreme beings. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1797
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 10:52:59 -
[73] - Quote
It doesn't matter if its aggressive or a non-aggressive module in this case. Just because you can do it doesnt you mean you should especially against a person that represents the authority of one of the Empires.
Akrasjel Lanate
Member of Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Citizen of Solitude
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 11:02:11 -
[74] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote: If I were to break into your home and take pictures of you, it'd unprecedented invasion. If you're in public and I take pictures of you there, you have no recourse at all. If the systems aboard a vessel in space are not secure against the scans that CONCORD clearly doesn't consider worthy of a supect tag, then they are near enough to public.
Perhaps this might be the case in other Empires. Within all of Amarr space the word of the Empress is absolute and in this specific instance in which Mr Reish offered a barely acceptable explanation as to the purpose of his presence and the nature of his scans her actions more than justified.
As others have made clear the Empress is above the rebuke of mere capsuleers with self entitled notions of authority, she needs offer no explanation, she needs offer no apology. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
225
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 11:44:46 -
[75] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:If Raish has any level of intelligence - and, well, he holds a leadership position in SOCT, so that's a fair assumption - he had an active communications link to a vastly less vulnerable data storage device while making that scan. It's a fair assumption to make that whatever he wanted to know, he discovered, and he has the data to back it up.
Wouldn't even need that. Neural encoding. Pop goes the pod and the bloodthirsty bodyguards ensured the data transmission was done for him, and if they somehow failed to take the pod out, he could just warp off with said data equally intact. The SoCT aren't fools, as you say, and they would have predicted these consequences.
Whatever he obtained and the clone queen didn't want him to get away with... is out there somewhere.
It'll be interesting to see what it is. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1448
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 11:44:52 -
[76] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:So in short, it was more important for her Imperial Witchiness to prevent him from getting away with the scan data (which he obtained in accordance with the Yulai Convention) than at least pretending to comply with international laws and accords. This isn't suspicious at all and we should all stop asking questions, surely.
At least her claim that we will never dare set foot there again was quite simply disproven as we came, spoke and then delivered token gifts to the graveyard. With honor and a crooked smile as Aldrith was quick to fire upon us.
I hope the symbolism doesn't require further explanation. Please provide me the CONCORD law that allows one to use what appears to be an Entosis link on a Sovereign CONCORD Signatory's Leader's vessel. Simpy, saying something was legal doesn't make it so. If CONCORD come back, and say it violated some treaty then I'll continue to retort that it was Amarr Space, and they were ordered to stop several times.
Actually in law just saying something is illegal does not make it so. If the ship in question ws not marked criminal by the DED then by definition no illegal activity tok place other than the destruction of the said vessel. |
Ollie Rundle
216
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 12:58:25 -
[77] - Quote
One wonders what might have happened had Raish simply said 'Alright, complying with your request' while departing rather than crowing about how his job was done and he had what he'd come there for like some mustache-twirling antagonist in a B-grade entertainment option. |
Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
324
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 13:32:35 -
[78] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:Why is this even a debate?
The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation. The Amarr Empire is a CONCORD signatory. Just because you people believe that an invisible supreme being for whose evidence there exists no serious scientific proof allows certain people among your number to do pretty much whatever you wish doesn't mean that you can go about violating CONCORD's charter on a whim here in the real world. And let's face it, if this had been anyone else - Shakor or Roden, in particular - the Empire would be clamouring for blood. Also, Mokk, a personal note - you probably shut the hell up whenever matters of the Empire are afoot. Don't think your alleged sudden rediscovery of your roots excuses your tenure with the Angel Cartel.
Khanid is also a signatory. The Kingdom is ok with this situation. So is the Royal Navy. Apparently so is the State, the Republic and EVEN YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT. All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that?
As I stated during our fencing match last night (nice lunge on your part, but your ability to riposte is lacking), my God, my King, my Navy, my Empire and CONCORD all consider me to be in good standing, faithful and doing the right thing. None of us answer to you and your misconceptions.
You would probably have a happier and less stress-filled existence if you just learned to accept things. Having a fire in your shorts is understandable kid, but maybe you should go sit in a vacuum for a bit. You are going to find that in life, things aren't going to fit nicely into your ideas of how they should be. Stop being so self-entitled and your life will improve dramatically.
Have a pleasant day.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
770
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 13:51:18 -
[79] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that? Taking cues from silence is something I cannot recommend. Asuming silence means either agreement or disagreement can lead to complications, as I've seen on various occassions.
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
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Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
719
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:06:15 -
[80] - Quote
It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios. |
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Goldfinch
House Rkard
194
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:30:25 -
[81] - Quote
iyammarrok wrote:I have personally been scanned by drifter variant entosis links on multiple occasions, they have no adverse effects.
Implying that there's no difference between you and the Empress of Amarr.
We have personally been shot by water pistols on multiple occasions with no adverse effects. If we went up to President Roden and shot him with one, we would likely be killed.
We see a lot of opinions driven by dislike of the Empress. No one actually has any idea what sort of threat Matshi Raish posed, but you are willing to argue from that standpoint because it fits your narrative about how terrible the Empress is. Security details for dignitaries err on the side of caution. The security detail for the supreme head of the largest sovereign entity in the Cluster will not desist on the off chance that the lunatic with the gun is actually just armed with a replica.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Haruchai Khan
88
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:34:03 -
[82] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that? Taking cues from silence is something I cannot recommend. Asuming silence means either agreement or disagreement can lead to complications, as I've seen on various occassions.
In law, silence is taken to mean consent.
The lack of comment is, in my view, simply the delay caused by reflection and bureaucracy. Nonetheless, whilst other governments decline making their views known, Lord Mokk is correct in his claim that this silence can be construed as consent to the actions of the Empress.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:52:44 -
[83] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Khanid is also a signatory. The Kingdom is ok with this situation. So is the Royal Navy. Apparently so is the State, the Republic and EVEN YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT. All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that?
Does it surprise anyone that none of the Signatories object to 'Smeg off, CONCORD, we'll kill who we want, you just stick to keeping those uppity capsuleers in line?'
I mean, really. |
Frenjo Borkstar
Borkstar Laboratories
122
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:54:05 -
[84] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:Did anyone else scan the Titan?
He activated an entosis link, however I was running passive scans of the entire system throughout the whole event. I also scanned the titan, but it's shields were up so I couldn't get anything conclusive.
Dr. Frenjo Borkstar,
//Founder of the Drifter Research Assembly//
Lead for Arek'Jaalan's Project Salus, Co-Lead for Project Trireme,
Borkstar Laboratories.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:56:53 -
[85] - Quote
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios.
The Society presents a capsuleer face to most of the Cluster, but don't forget who they really are. The last time your Empire demanded compliance from the Jove, you not only lost the shortest war in the cluster's history, you got the extra special parting gift of the Minmatar Rebellion.
Go for round 2. Please. Let's see who runs away from your God and Empress this time. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7389
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:59:09 -
[86] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote:
We see a lot of opinions driven by dislike of the Empress.
Incorrect. My opinion is driven by a dislike of arbitrary violence being exercised against the seekers-of-knowledge. To me, this isn't about her imperial majesty's nobility of person, but about Raish's acting within the bounds of interstellar law and being killed at the whim of a sovereign.
Goldfinch wrote: No one actually has any idea what sort of threat Matshi Raish posed, but you are willing to argue from that standpoint because it fits your narrative about how terrible the Empress is. Security details for dignitaries err on the side of caution. The security detail for the supreme head of the largest sovereign entity in the Cluster will not desist on the off chance that the lunatic with the gun is actually just armed with a replica.
Excepting that an Entosis Link is not a gun and has never been a gun. Claims to the contrary are fanciful.
Ships should not be destroyed due to fancy.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 15:02:53 -
[87] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote:iyammarrok wrote:I have personally been scanned by drifter variant entosis links on multiple occasions, they have no adverse effects. Implying that there's no difference between you and the Empress of Amarr.
Actually, I think the implication is that there is a clear difference between the Empress of Amarr, her titan, and the dozens of Avatars I've seen scanned by Circadian Seeker links. And the difference is something she doesn't want getting out.
Goldfinch wrote: We have personally been shot by water pistols on multiple occasions with no adverse effects. If we went up to President Roden and shot him with one, we would likely be killed.
And if he had been shot immediately, as a reaction, or while conducting his scans, I don't think anyone would see it as anything but maybe overzealous security. In your analogy, you've walked up to President Roden, shot him with a squirt gun, and everyone's seen it was just a squirt gun, and he's unharmed. Then you turn and start to walk away, only to have the President order - not his security detail - the crowd to kill you. So the mob tears you limb from limb.
Not quite the same thing as being shot by the security for pulling a gun on the President. That's what has people... let's say 'curious', rather than necessarily 'critical'. |
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
125
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 15:40:02 -
[88] - Quote
What a incredibly interesting series of events.
A SOCT vessel bothers to attend a event in Amarr space equipped with some kind of prototype presumably non lethal device to use on a head of state that said head of state responding with an unusually violent reaction to the use of said prototype when directed at them.
I think the answers for why this series of events unfolded is going to be very interesting.
Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!
"DRINK STARSI!" -¬-«GäóOwnership Group Chairman
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Goldfinch
House Rkard
199
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 16:32:21 -
[89] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Incorrect. My opinion is driven by a dislike of arbitrary violence being exercised against the seekers-of-knowledge. To me, this isn't about her imperial majesty's nobility of person, but about Raish's acting within the bounds of interstellar law and being killed at the whim of a sovereign. Actually, you have no idea what Raish was doing. All you have is his word that he is doing nothing illegal, and a codicil which cannot be found in any written Yulai Convention records anywhere.
Quote:Excepting that an Entosis Link is not a gun and has never been a gun. Claims to the contrary are fanciful. You've never personally equipped or used an Entosis Link that can target a Capsuleer ship. How are you suddenly an expert of how they operate? What I find interesting is that even the person whose report you used to determine how Entosis Links work on Capsuleer ships, actually opened fire on Raish's ship, according to the Kill Report. Why do you think that is?
Arrendis, your hindsight has perfect clarity.. but your conjecture is made long after the fact, and not in the moment. Security complications are dynamic, and being a combat veteran like yourself, we think that you should be sympathetic to how quickly decisions need to be made in the field. The safety of the Empress comes at the cost of mercy for Raish's life.
Even a thousand Raish clones is not of equal worth to the Empress of Amarr.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
235
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 16:39:13 -
[90] - Quote
If it had been a quickly made decision, it would have been less interesting and more understandable, yes. It wasn't. The decision came only after he was done and publicly stated his business was concluded, which quite clearly was taken as a far greater threat than the (for combat pilots at least) quite significant amount of time he spent actually engaging in his scanning.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that this is noted with interest. |
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Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
724
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 16:51:04 -
[91] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios. The Society presents a capsuleer face to most of the Cluster, but don't forget who they really are. The last time your Empire demanded compliance from the Jove, you not only lost the shortest war in the cluster's history, you got the extra special parting gift of the Minmatar Rebellion. Go for round 2. Please. Let's see who runs away from your God and Empress this time. Who could forget what the Society represents? A dying, degenerate race that God has abandoned a long time ago. If need be, it will not again sent an expedition corps to encounter them, but an armada.
But I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasnGÇÖt talking about war and bloodshed, but about honour and principles. I know, it is hard for you to understand these two... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
585
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 17:07:03 -
[92] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote: [Arrendis, your hindsight has perfect clarity.. but your conjecture is made long after the fact, and not in the moment. Security complications are dynamic, and being a combat veteran like yourself, we think that you should be sympathetic to how quickly decisions need to be made in the field. The safety of the Empress comes at the cost of mercy for Raish's life.
Indeed, security complications are dynamic and highly-charged - and the trained, professional security assets on-field did not take action against him except to insist he desist and back away. They clearly considered his actions inappropriate, but not an imminent threat. That assessment was made by a personally-aggrieved party who had, after all, just been successfully defied. In public. At a ceremony where she was trumpeting a victory that would ensure the Matari would never dare set foot in that place again.
While we were already there.
Someone who's used to getting her way and being obeyed without question isn't going to take kindly to being made to look impotent in public, and that's exactly what Raish did. She blew up a capsuleer's ship. She didn't prevent him from doing what he wanted to do, and she didn't prevent him from relaying anything he wanted to relay back to the Society - either through real-time packet forwarding or by just storing the data in his wetware and spitting it back out when he woke up in the clone bay. And she knew it. And she was - visibly, demonstrably - angry about it.
Yeah, she did a good little bit of spin on it, using it as a 'and so shall those who defy us fall blah blah' moment, and yeah, the crowd ate it up, but I mean, really now. She shows up, talks up the victory seven years ago so all the Amarr get that nationalism puffing up their chests, then some guy turns up and defies her, so she unleashes the mob on him and gives them the bloodsport she'd been whipping them up to want. Of course they're going to eat that up. And nobody should be surprised. She's a politician. Manipulating the masses is her job, her vocation, and clearly, she's good at it.
I don't envy those Imperial Navy commanders the position they were in, not even a little. I wouldn't be surprised if she tore each and every one of them a new orifice once she got them and the head of the protection detail in private. But let's be real - she was never in any danger. Not with Aeons on the field for remote assistance, and probably an entire battlegroup on standby within 5LY in case of emergency. Just the assets she had on the field would have been able to keep that Avatar alive long enough to survive anything less than the combined volley-fire of something on the order of a thousand Maelstroms or Tornados - probably closer to fifteen-hundred. Unless the Imperial Navy was so lax that they somehow missed a significant dreadnought group moving into position, along with subcapital assets to distract CONCORD, the only thing that could have possibly threatened her life and the lives of her crew would have been a Drifter incursion.
The only things at risk there, no matter how much people want to claim that a Jovian-tech Entosis Link would have destabilized the ship and made it kill every puppy within a million light-years, were the information that she almost certainly failed to keep from Raisch, and her ego.
Heck, even I was standing ready to provide remote assistance in the event of any distress, but a Marmite Collective fleet decided that exercising their 'war' on my alliance was more important, and reduced my Scimitar to scrap. Other Matari pilots have also reported being attacked by anyone with an excuse, despite offering no hostile actions whatsoever, merely being there to observe the commemoration of a battle where both our nations lost lives.
Honestly, some folks just have no sense of occasion. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
585
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 17:18:56 -
[93] - Quote
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:But I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasnGÇÖt talking about war and bloodshed, but about honour and principles. I know, it is hard for you to understand these two...
See now, I'm going to go ahead and let that slide as a Matari, and as a Sebiestor. I'll even let the slight to Clan Stj+¦rnauga go. And I'll do all of that because I'm sure you're not looking to be so blatantly bent out of shape about being reminded that not only was your Emperor was dumb enough to attack the Jove, but your Empire was so weak-willed and unable to execute God's Will that the Matari threw off your yoke en masse, and have been bloodying your nose ever since.
You'd never get so irked about that sort of thing that you'd stoop to insulting an entire people for the crime of kicking your butt. That's beneath you as a Holder, and it would make you look like some kind of common trash like me. So I'm sure you're not doing that.
No, I'm going to choose to believe that you think I have no concept of honor or principles because I'm a Goon.
Lemme tell ya, your Holy Holderness, I've been personally assured very recently that we are lovely people. You should come party with us some time. I promise, we'll treat you right. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1241
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 17:32:21 -
[94] - Quote
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:Arrendis wrote:Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios. The Society presents a capsuleer face to most of the Cluster, but don't forget who they really are. The last time your Empire demanded compliance from the Jove, you not only lost the shortest war in the cluster's history, you got the extra special parting gift of the Minmatar Rebellion. Go for round 2. Please. Let's see who runs away from your God and Empress this time. Who could forget what the Society represents? A dying, degenerate race that God has abandoned a long time ago. If need be, the Empire will not again sent an expedition corps to encounter them, but an armada. But I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasnGÇÖt talking about war and bloodshed, but about honour and principles. I know, it is hard for you to understand these two...
Well, I am sorry but I have not seen a single Jovian entity among the Society's ranks...
Maybe there actually are, all wearing tinfoil hats, but I do not think that the burden of proof lies on my shoulders here... |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7405
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 17:41:36 -
[95] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote: Actually, you have no idea what Raish was doing. All you have is his word that he is doing nothing illegal, and a codicil which cannot be found in any written Yulai Convention records anywhere.
Yes. We only have his word. His ship was downed on the assumption that he was a clear and present danger, but for that matter we don't even have a statement from the Empress to that effect, either, which means his ship may have been destroyed purely as a product of imperial whim. For that matter, considering that he was withdrawing at the time he was downed, I'm not sure Raish as a present danger, and I'm certainly contesting that he was a clear danger, considering that Circadian Seekers have been using this sort of scanning equipment on pilots for months with seemingly no ill effects.
As to the Yulai Convention, frankly, Goldfinch, you know perfectly well that we just don't have the text. We can shout at each other all day about what we know is in the convention, or what we don't know is in the convention, but you know as well as I: absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Raish appeared to believe that the 9th Codicil was grounds for his actions. As he's an elder mentor of the Society of Conscious Thought, I'm going to assume that he's not an idiot, and has a reasonable grounding in law, especially if he's willing to risk being in harm's way on the grounds of that law.
While I respect your legalistic tendencies, Goldfinch, I think you're arguing this too strongly.
Goldfinch wrote:You've never personally equipped or used an Entosis Link that can target a Capsuleer ship. How are you suddenly an expert of how they operate? What I find interesting is that even the person whose report you used to determine how Entosis Links work on Capsuleer ships, actually opened fire on Raish's ship, according to the Kill Report. Why do you think that is?
You'd have to ask her. I might also advise not using a fallacy of false authority just after you indicate the capabilities of Raish's Entosis Link can't be knowable to those of us who haven't used it the same way. After all, we have witnessed Circadian Seekers using similar scanning methods for, what, eight months now? Eight months, and we've witnessed no ill effects whatsoever when Circadian Seekers scan ships, stations, asteroids.
Ultimately, what I want is this: not a declaration that her imperial majesty is wrong, because I'd never expect that of the Amarr, but an admission that by the Empress's order may not have been completely in keeping with interstellar law, and may possibly have been somewhat disproportionate to the situation.
Not a binary declaration, but an admission that things may not be absolutely, clearly in keeping with interstellar law, to which the Empire has demonstrably submitted itself as a Yulai Convention signatory.
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James Syagrius
Reclamation Technologies
1075
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 18:32:19 -
[96] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:To be honest, if the Head of state tells you to stop, you damn well stop if you're in her space.
Nobody should be allowed to ride roughshod over the sovereignty of a people, certainly not because of something as vague as an opinion on what is and is not an 'existential threat to the cluster'. The SOCT ship was free to use it's regular scanners - it chose to use it's weird ass Entosis link instead.
And it was warned. In this instance I must concur with Pieter's opinion.
A head of state within their own sovereignty is, or at least should be, the supreme authority.
Especially so within the Empire where sovereign authority is invested in the person of Empress Jamyl herself.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
208
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 19:39:14 -
[97] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:To be honest, if the Head of state tells you to stop, you damn well stop if you're in her space.
Nobody should be allowed to ride roughshod over the sovereignty of a people, certainly not because of something as vague as an opinion on what is and is not an 'existential threat to the cluster'. The SOCT ship was free to use it's regular scanners - it chose to use it's weird ass Entosis link instead.
And it was warned. In this instance I must concur with Pieter's opinion. A head of state within their own sovereignty is, or at least should be, the supreme authority. Especially so within the Empire where sovereign authority is invested in the person of Empress Jamyl herself. It sounds like if your crewmember tries to prank you you will sell him to some slavery or something.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 20:33:35 -
[98] - Quote
Comparing the Entosis Link to a "squirt gun" or that it holds no "potential for danger" because it is not a gun is hilarious. This is like saying that a Tachyon Beam Laser is nothing more than a Civilian Handgun and thus can't pierce even a shuttle's shields. This is a gross underestimation and negligent downplaying of its potential for damage.
--
With regards to this, the SCOPE should better put Lina Ambre back to the desk duty. Her's, and Alton Haveri's, reports lack professionalism and contain amateurish mistakes. The last breaking news, for instance, puts the Sarum Prime system into the Throne Worlds constellation. It appears that Lina as well as her supervisors need a lesson in astrogeography and probably yet another pair of eyes to check for such disconcerting mistakes. Unless, of course, there is a ulterior motiv behind this kind of mistakes in the latest reports.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
594
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 20:49:33 -
[99] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:With regards to this, the SCOPE should better put Lina Ambre back to the desk duty. Her's, and Alton Haveri's, reports lack professionalism and contain amateurish mistakes. The last breaking news, for instance, puts the Sarum Prime system into the Throne Worlds constellation.
They did just claim that a High-security Kador system was 'Caldari Low-sec'...
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Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
729
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 20:57:26 -
[100] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:No, I'm going to choose to believe that you think I have no concept of honor or principles because I'm a Goon. You're a smart bird, aren't you?
P.S.: While I appreciated your history lesson, here's one for you: I am a Khanid holder. We weren't there when Vak'Atioth and the Rebellion happened. From our perspective we always kicked butt, to use your wording, but never experienced to be kicked. |
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2041
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 20:58:05 -
[101] - Quote
The Scope has long been known for its failure to understand and its hatred of Amarrian culture. I find that you get a far more objective viewpoint from ACN.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation Technologies
1080
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 21:06:45 -
[102] - Quote
Jaret Victorian wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:To be honest, if the Head of state tells you to stop, you damn well stop if you're in her space.
Nobody should be allowed to ride roughshod over the sovereignty of a people, certainly not because of something as vague as an opinion on what is and is not an 'existential threat to the cluster'. The SOCT ship was free to use it's regular scanners - it chose to use it's weird ass Entosis link instead.
And it was warned. In this instance I must concur with Pieter's opinion. A head of state within their own sovereignty is, or at least should be, the supreme authority. Especially so within the Empire where sovereign authority is invested in the person of Empress Jamyl herself. It sounds like if your crewmember tries to prank you you will sell him to some slavery or something. I am not a Holder within the Empire or any of its subject territories, Thus I am not legally empower to possess slaves, nor am I ethically predisposed to do so.
Be that as I may.
I assure you Msr. Victorian that the relationship I maintain with my associates precludes the occurrence of.... GÇÿpranksGÇÖ.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
208
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 21:27:13 -
[103] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Jaret Victorian wrote: It sounds like if your crewmember tries to prank you you will sell him to some slavery or something.
I am not a Holder within the Empire or any of its subject territories, Thus I am not legally empower to possess slaves, nor am I ethically predisposed to do so. Be that as it may. I assure you Msr. Victorian that the relationship I maintain with my associates precludes the occurrence of.... GÇÿpranksGÇÖ. Oh, yes... Okay, must be boring.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5462
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 21:42:31 -
[104] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:The Scope has long been known for its failure to understand and its hatred of Amarrian culture. I find that you get a far more objective viewpoint from ACN. "You get a more objective viewpoint from a state-controlled media organisation that always prints articles exclusively in favour of whatever political viewpoint held by the current occupant of the Imperial Throne."
Yeah okay Blakey. Sure thing.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Goldfinch
House Rkard
205
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 21:44:38 -
[105] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:While I respect your legalistic tendencies, Goldfinch, I think you're arguing this too strongly.
You are right, of course. We have overstepped our bounds. We had no intention of upsetting a respected member of the scientific community, and we regret having done so.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7420
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 21:53:26 -
[106] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:While I respect your legalistic tendencies, Goldfinch, I think you're arguing this too strongly. You are right, of course. We have overstepped our bounds. We had no intention of upsetting a respected member of the scientific community, and we regret having done so.
My thanks for the concession. I'll admit we've both become a bit heated.
Let me say that I continue to respect the loyalty and dedication of our Imperial allies, and I do not question their obedience to the order of their sovereign. I simply ask that this loyalty and dedication be alloyed with reason and an understanding of the motivations of others, so that our alliance may be a more fruitful, productive one than otherwise.
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Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2233
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 21:56:48 -
[107] - Quote
An Entosis Link is a weapon. It gathers knowledge.
Knowledge is a more powerful weapon than any other.
I'm not sure why this is a point of discussion. Of course Her Imperial Majesty has secrets that she doesn't want to be made public. Doesn't every ruler? |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1248
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 22:46:20 -
[108] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:The Scope has long been known for its failure to understand and its hatred of Amarrian culture. I find that you get a far more objective viewpoint from ACN. "You get a more objective viewpoint from a state-controlled media organisation that always prints articles exclusively in favour of whatever political viewpoint held by the current occupant of the Imperial Throne." Yeah okay Blakey. Sure thing.
The ACN is controlled by the Imperial Throne and Scripture, The Scope is controlled by its audience... |
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
211
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 22:56:41 -
[109] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:An Entosis Link is a weapon. It gathers knowledge.
Knowledge is a more powerful weapon than any other.
I'm not sure why this is a point of discussion. Of course Her Imperial Majesty has secrets that she doesn't want to be made public. Doesn't every ruler? Yet most harmless if operated correctly. Noone should be denied Knowledge, it's like air.
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works
497
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:11:16 -
[110] - Quote
Can I have all of IKAME's POS passwords? No one should be denied knowledge after all... |
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5468
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:32:13 -
[111] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:The ACN is controlled by the Imperial Throne and Scripture, The Scope is controlled by its audience... Re-read my statement, Farel. I never said I thought the Scope was objective - I merely remarked on the absurdity of suggesting ACN was in any way "more objective."
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7424
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:32:48 -
[112] - Quote
Vess, certainly! All of them: --. We don't have any POS online at the moment.
That said, without knowing the capabilities of the Circadian Seeker scan, we can't properly calibrate the threat posed by Raish. Simple as that.
What's more, Scherezad-haani, I'd contend that knowledge isn't a weapon: it's a force multiplier.
That still requires the application of force, however, and no known force multiplier makes a battlecruiser a threat to a titan.
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
213
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:40:14 -
[113] - Quote
Nice comebacks is also a reason why I work where I work.
Would you like to know more, Deitra?
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works
498
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:41:46 -
[114] - Quote
If you did have them operational would you still be so willing? Understandably I would think not. There are some bits of info that shouldn't be public knowledge. Maybe that's the case with this? I'm also sure that if I decided to get the passwords without making it known I was seeking them I would get a similar response as Raish, again understandably so. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7428
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:45:10 -
[115] - Quote
Sure! Why not? It's not like I'd be senseless enough to leave POS trash drifting about for you to nudge out of a POS shield. Even with a POS password, you'd be able to do nothing at all.
That said, we still haven't exactly established that Raish was secretly extracting secrets from Sarum's brain or other such fanciful rubbish. If you have any proof of that, well, then I think we'll be rather more militant about Circadian Seekers doing the same to us, don't you think?
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works
498
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:45:40 -
[116] - Quote
And ya, that actually was a great comeback, I gotta admit.
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
214
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:50:09 -
[117] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:If you did have them operational would you still be so willing? Understandably I would think not. There are some bits of info that shouldn't be public knowledge. Maybe that's the case with this? I'm also sure that if I decided to get the passwords without making it known I was seeking them I would get a similar response as Raish, again understandably so. I will admit that what you say is a good point. Our POS password, however, is not an existential threat that could affect other's lives.
And for the record, If I had a POS and you and your crew were in danger I would totally let you in. I assume you will not steal anything, right?
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Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2239
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 23:56:38 -
[118] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:What's more, Scherezad-haani, I'd contend that knowledge isn't a weapon: it's a force multiplier.
That still requires the application of force, however, and no known force multiplier makes a battlecruiser a threat to a titan.
Um ... I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear! I wasn't suggesting that the SoCT battlecruiser was a direct, immediate threat to the safety of the Empress. Is that what it came across as? Are we really arguing whether someone flying up to an Empress and scanning her without requesting permission is okay? And calling the defense of her person as the Head of Empire as 'questionable'?
This is all sort of counting fishes for sharks. I don't perform neural scans or procedures on strangers without their permission, consent and willful desire - even if the individual is dangerous. It's just not moral. Why would I hold this situation to a lower standard?
Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative here - I don't get it! |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
503
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 00:02:26 -
[119] - Quote
Steal anything? Yeah right! I have some self respect thank you very much. Thanks for the offer but I also don't operate around you guys and have no real reason to start.
Really I'm only running on speculation, as it seems others here are as well. Am I curious as to what he found, yes but honestly for less than scholarly reasons. Really from what I know of this it just sounds like Raish found sensitive information and she reacted accordingly. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 00:16:31 -
[120] - Quote
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote: P.S.: While I appreciated your history lesson, here's one for you: I am a Khanid holder. We weren't there when Vak'Atioth and the Rebellion happened. From our perspective we always kicked butt, to use your wording, but never experienced to be kicked.
Here's one for you: If you're gonna buy into the Emperor/Empress' infallibility, you don't get to say 'we were on time out! that didn't count!'. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 00:17:57 -
[121] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:An Entosis Link is a weapon. It gathers knowledge.
Knowledge is a more powerful weapon than any other.
I'm not sure why this is a point of discussion. Of course Her Imperial Majesty has secrets that she doesn't want to be made public. Doesn't every ruler?
And she's got the guns to keep those secrets. Pity she didn't have a grasp of timing... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 00:22:30 -
[122] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Can I have all of IKAME's POS passwords? No one should be denied knowledge after all...
To be fair, our default POS password is so much an open secret, it's a common joke among the swarm. |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
506
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 00:24:21 -
[123] - Quote
Think I still know it..... I'd have to think about it. |
Ginia Itonula
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 05:19:23 -
[124] - Quote
The False Empress should be afforded no special privileges to avoid being on the receiving end of an Entosis Link. As far as I see it, she deserves no more protection from the Amarr Navy than the captain of a freighter loaded with exotic dancers; in fact, I might even argue that she deserves less, as the exotic dancers would produce much more happiness throughout the Empire.
She clearly has something to hide, and the clear disregard for the importance of investigating existential threats just goes to show that she is in fact herself an existential threat and should be dealt with. Fortunately, Maximillian Singularity had the foresight to identify her as such before this incident, and she will be removed soon enough. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1702
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 06:19:27 -
[125] - Quote
And neither should someone receive special treatment because they are in a Jove supported entity and use an offensive-aggressive weapon on Her Majesty's ship, or any ship from anyone. And, in contrast to what you demand, Her Majesty granted him the benefit of a doubt until this individual ambiguously revealed the purpose of his attack. On a kind of unrelated note: I find it disconcerting that you think prostitution creates more happiness than the workings of the Empress. Only a very small circle of select few people can afford and "enjoy" prostitution, and most of the empires' (to clarify that: not the Amarr Empire's but all empires', big 4 and beyond.) prostitutes work under inhumane conditions. Very intriguing insight into Max' followers' minds indeed.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
609
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 06:57:59 -
[126] - Quote
As a minor note, my esteemed alliance-mate said exotic dancers, not prostitutes. While I will not claim there is no overlap in the two groups, an exotic dancer is not automatically a prostitute, and does not necessarily work under the same conditions. That said, I don't really think the dancers give more happiness, considering the sheer number of people who find happiness in having enough structure and order in their lives that they need not make any choices for themselves.
And before any member of the Imperium (note: I do not refer to the Amarr Empire with this) thinks to claim our membership is immune to this tendency, I will say simply that if you have not heard the words, 'Don't think for yourselves, just do what you're told' from either me, a fleet commander, any number of members of senior leadership, or directly from the Mittani over our commsystem, you are still very new indeed.
That said, I encourage you all to think for yourselves, except for when it's time to shut up and soldier. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
247
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 07:20:05 -
[127] - Quote
Something something goons capable of cognition grr etc. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
610
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 07:31:25 -
[128] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Something something goons capable of cognition grr etc.
And patience! Been sitting in bos for like 13 hours now, feet up and engines cooling. What's a goon gotta do to get a drink around here?
Mebbe I'll find out t'morrow. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1249
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 07:44:29 -
[129] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:The ACN is controlled by the Imperial Throne and Scripture, The Scope is controlled by its audience... Re-read my statement, Farel. I never said I thought the Scope was objective - I merely remarked on the absurdity of suggesting ACN was in any way "more objective."
Oh uh sorry... fine enough...
I just felt it was an interesting point to raise... |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1249
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 07:46:12 -
[130] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:What's more, Scherezad-haani, I'd contend that knowledge isn't a weapon: it's a force multiplier.
That still requires the application of force, however, and no known force multiplier makes a battlecruiser a threat to a titan. Um ... I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear! I wasn't suggesting that the SoCT battlecruiser was a direct, immediate threat to the safety of the Empress. Is that what it came across as? Are we really arguing whether someone flying up to an Empress and scanning her without requesting permission is okay? And calling the defense of her person as the Head of Empire as 'questionable'? This is all sort of counting fishes for sharks. I don't perform neural scans or procedures on strangers without their permission, consent and willful desire - even if the individual is dangerous. It's just not moral. Why would I hold this situation to a lower standard? Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative here - I don't get it!
The only explanation I can see is that something was considered so important that those considerations became secondary... I guess. |
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2050
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 11:54:19 -
[131] - Quote
Ginia Itonula wrote: She clearly has something to hide,
Of course she has something to hide. I have things to hide, you have things to hide, The Mittani has things to hide. Why wouldn't the leader of the largest Empire in human history have things to hide?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Ginia Itonula
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 12:07:51 -
[132] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:And neither should someone receive special treatment because they are in a Jove supported entity and use an offensive-aggressive weapon on Her Majesty's ship, or any ship from anyone. And, in contrast to what you demand, Her Majesty granted him the benefit of a doubt until this individual ambiguously revealed the purpose of his attack.
The poor False Empress in her Titan could not withstand the might of a single unsupported Gnosis-class battleship that she had to call in the Amarr Navy and anyone else within range to help her after said ship complied with the orders given on the scene. Seems the actions of the insane: "Do what I say or my men will open fire!" "Okay, I'll do what you say." "OPEN FIRE!"
Quote:On a kind of unrelated note: I find it disconcerting that you think prostitution creates more happiness than the workings of the Empress. Only a very small circle of select few people can afford and "enjoy" prostitution, and most of the empires' (to clarify that: not the Amarr Empire's but all empires', big 4 and beyond.) prostitutes work under inhumane conditions. Very intriguing insight into Max' followers' minds indeed.
Well, exotic dancers are not always prostitutes. Perhaps in the places you frequent, it is so. For others, they are entertainers. |
Ginia Itonula
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 12:10:55 -
[133] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Ginia Itonula wrote: She clearly has something to hide,
Of course she has something to hide. I have things to hide, you have things to hide, The Mittani has things to hide. Why wouldn't the leader of the largest Empire in human history have things to hide?
Try to activate an Entosis Link on a ship piloted by you, myself or The Mittani and previous research into the device shows that nothing will happen. But one worked on a Jamyl's. Why is that?
Aren't you curious why her ship is so uniquely compatible with the use of an Entosis Link? |
iyammarrok
Virtually Anonymous Milk Of The Poppy
390
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 16:43:34 -
[134] - Quote
Ginia Itonula wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:And neither should someone receive special treatment because they are in a Jove supported entity and use an offensive-aggressive weapon on Her Majesty's ship, or any ship from anyone. And, in contrast to what you demand, Her Majesty granted him the benefit of a doubt until this individual ambiguously revealed the purpose of his attack. The poor False Empress in her Titan could not withstand the might of a single unsupported Gnosis-class battleship that she had to call in the Amarr Navy and anyone else within range to help her after said ship complied with the orders given on the scene. Seems the actions of the insane: "Do what I say or my men will open fire!" "Okay, I'll do what you say." "OPEN FIRE!"
ambiguously? he said from the start that he was there to perform an investigation. The purpose of an investigation is to uncover information. Prior to being fired upon, he said he had gained the information he required.
so... where's the ambiguity?
Ginia, it might be better to simply allow this one to delude himself. His earlier arguments failed after he contradicted his own points then claimed they were irrefutable. I see no difference in his choice of methodology here.
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2053
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 17:02:36 -
[135] - Quote
Ginia Itonula wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Ginia Itonula wrote: She clearly has something to hide,
Of course she has something to hide. I have things to hide, you have things to hide, The Mittani has things to hide. Why wouldn't the leader of the largest Empire in human history have things to hide? Try to activate an Entosis Link on a ship piloted by you, myself or The Mittani and previous research into the device shows that nothing will happen. But one worked on a Jamyl's. Why is that? Aren't you curious why her ship is so uniquely compatible with the use of an Entosis Link?
I'm patient enough to wait for the present to be unwrapped at the appropriate time and not a moment before.
I have a feeling that it will be worth the wait.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7437
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 17:16:13 -
[136] - Quote
Ginia Itonula wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Ginia Itonula wrote: She clearly has something to hide,
Of course she has something to hide. I have things to hide, you have things to hide, The Mittani has things to hide. Why wouldn't the leader of the largest Empire in human history have things to hide? Try to activate an Entosis Link on a ship piloted by you, myself or The Mittani and previous research into the device shows that nothing will happen. But one worked on a Jamyl's. Why is that? Aren't you curious why her ship is so uniquely compatible with the use of an Entosis Link?
The Entosis Link appeared to be operating in a pattern similar to the Circadian Seeker's scanning system, which would seem to indicate that the Society understands the technology better than your average capsuleer does. This doesn't mean anything is special about her imperial majesty, or her imperial majesty's ship.
Still, it remains a scan.
The analogy of the security response to a squirt gun seems an inaccurate one; I'd prefer the analogy of a man with a cream pie. Sure, he's exceeding his bounds and the security detail would be right to tackle him, but it's unreasonable to assume that the cream pie is full of acid and thus shoot him dead.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Borascus
642
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 18:38:19 -
[137] - Quote
Now, EM Raish is displayed as an Amarrian by heritage.
Is it possible he was on deployment to SoCT and was simply returning his findings to The Empress?
If the Empress were to use this as a catalyst it would be worth the Theology Council working out how he became so devoid of faith also. |
Ginia Itonula
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 05:48:48 -
[138] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Ginia Itonula wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Ginia Itonula wrote: She clearly has something to hide,
Of course she has something to hide. I have things to hide, you have things to hide, The Mittani has things to hide. Why wouldn't the leader of the largest Empire in human history have things to hide? Try to activate an Entosis Link on a ship piloted by you, myself or The Mittani and previous research into the device shows that nothing will happen. But one worked on a Jamyl's. Why is that? Aren't you curious why her ship is so uniquely compatible with the use of an Entosis Link? The Entosis Link appeared to be operating in a pattern similar to the Circadian Seeker's scanning system, which would seem to indicate that the Society understands the technology better than your average capsuleer does. This doesn't mean anything is special about her imperial majesty, or her imperial majesty's ship. Still, it remains a scan. The analogy of the security response to a squirt gun seems an inaccurate one; I'd prefer the analogy of a man with a cream pie. Sure, he's exceeding his bounds and the security detail would be right to tackle him, but it's unreasonable to assume that the cream pie is full of acid and thus shoot him dead.
Well, combine the fact that it functioned thus AND the response was so severe even after the scans were complete. Famous last words are apparently, "Very well, we have learned what we needed to learn." The question is, did they learn something from the link... or from the response? Often times, how a person reacts can tell you more about them than what any of our best scanning devices.
If a man is insane, Cargo Scan, Ship Scan, D-Scan and Probe Scanning will tell you none of it-- well, okay, sometimes you can tell if someone is insane by how they fit their ship. But still, actions sometimes speak louder than scans. |
Caroline Grace
Retrostellar Boulevard
654
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:31:34 -
[139] - Quote
Her Majesty has many secrets she needs to keep in order to not compromise the safety of the Amarr Empire. That is perfectly reasonable thing to have for any leader in the cluster. And while scanning itself is not against the CONCORD law, the Entosis link module (which was used in this case) is a specific scanning tool with not yet known all side-effects. We know very little about this module in general. The fact capsuleers cannot use the module on another ships but Mr. Raish could, confirms this in my eyes. The security of her Imperial Majesty did what they needed to do. They asked Mr. Raish first to state his intentions, then to back off and then after these warnings they opened fire. I fail to see the problem, unless Mr. Raish was really flying away after the warnings and yet he was destroyed anyway. If that is the case, Madame Empress will forgive me for calling her an action potato and reasonable compensation should be issued to Mr. Raish.
I'm Caroline Grace, and this is my favorite juice in the Citadel.
|
Jili Tonari
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 19:00:48 -
[140] - Quote
The Empress got no problem violating the rights and privacy of other people on a daily basis. But someone does it to her and she turns the slave hounds on them.
So typical.
GÇ£Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.GÇ¥
|
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2059
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 11:45:00 -
[141] - Quote
Jili Tonari wrote:The Empress got no problem violating the rights and privacy of other people on a daily basis. But someone does it to her and she turns the slave hounds on them.
So typical.
You're right that there are some Holders who feel that Jamyl's Great Emancipation violated their rights to keep slaves, but I don't see what this has to do with the subject at hand?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5477
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 11:51:17 -
[142] - Quote
I used to have a problem with the Amarrian religion in general. Nowadays, I don't have a problem with you worshiping your God. I have a problem with the fact that you mistakenly believe your belief gives you the right or the obligation to bother others with it.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Jili Tonari
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 12:26:58 -
[143] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Jili Tonari wrote:The Empress got no problem violating the rights and privacy of other people on a daily basis. But someone does it to her and she turns the slave hounds on them.
So typical.
You're right that there are some Holders who feel that Jamyl's Great Emancipation violated their rights to keep slaves, but I don't see what this has to do with the subject at hand?
Wow, look the old, bald guy being all clever. How's that workin out for ya?
What dirt you hidin Blake? What if I ripped it out of the shadows to let it dance here in the light? You gonna turn loose the Hounds like Empress Twatwaffle?
Oh, but it's ok when you do this kinda stuff to your slaves, because "God" wrote a blank check that means you can engage in all kinds of f*ckery. Just as long as no one does it to you, 'cause you god an edict from above.
The wheel turns and turns again old man. And I got time on my side.
GÇ£Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.GÇ¥
|
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp Nox Draconum
67
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 12:31:23 -
[144] - Quote
Most notably absent from this on-going discussion is Elder Mentor Raish, himself.
He is of Amarr origin and may have followed the practice (or lack of practice) of maintaining a medical clone.
Has anyone seen or heard from him after his ship and pod were destroyed? |
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
190
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:13:48 -
[145] - Quote
Very inappropriate questions you ask Mrs Farel. |
Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
358
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:46:06 -
[146] - Quote
Feu dAstres wrote:Most notably absent from this on-going discussion is Elder Mentor Raish, himself.
He is of Amarr origin and may have followed the practice (or lack of practice) of maintaining a medical clone.
Has anyone seen or heard from him after his ship and pod were destroyed?
I'm fairly certain we ended his existence.
If not, he's probably found a nice hole somewhere to hide in for the next few centuries.
Still, I suppose some verification wouldn't be a bad idea. K+ìg+ì Heika will probably want to have a few words with him if he's still drawing breath.
*Edit: *Apologies, I mean to say, Her Majesty the Empress, I'm trying to learn some local Khaldari dialects.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
|
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp Nox Draconum
70
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 16:51:43 -
[147] - Quote
I suppose the public relations personnel of H+ítign Henni are a bit busy these days. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
658
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 17:22:31 -
[148] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote: I'm fairly certain we ended his existence.
I doubt he's any more mortal than you or I, capsuleer. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1253
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 20:02:52 -
[149] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Very inappropriate questions you ask Mrs Farel.
That is possible.
Always easy to tell with detachement after though... At least it initiated some interesting discussions.
Everyone has my apologies in any case. .. |
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
192
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 21:37:47 -
[150] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Very inappropriate questions you ask Mrs Farel. That is possible. Always easy to tell with detachement after though... At least it initiated some interesting discussions. Everyone has my apologies in any case. .. Indeed, gossip do initiat "interesting" discussions.
Look at that holder, did you hear about his wife? Oh, have you heared about archbishop's son, oh my. And our ni-kunni neighbors moving furniture all night every night, why oh why sister? Your discussion is the same type of interesting.
I expected better from you Mrs Farel or if not better then at least some class, extremely disappointing. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
661
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 23:15:33 -
[151] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Look at that holder, did you hear about his wife? Oh, have you heared about archbishop's son, oh my. And our ni-kunni neighbors moving furniture all night every night, why oh why sister? Your discussion is the same type of interesting.
I daresay there is a difference between titillating whispers about someone's personal life, and attempting to understand the motivations behind a somewhat controversial and violent decision by the one absolute ruler in Highsec, the one person among the four Empires that can unilaterally decide to start a war. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1253
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 06:52:25 -
[152] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Very inappropriate questions you ask Mrs Farel. That is possible. Always easy to tell with detachement after though... At least it initiated some interesting discussions. Everyone has my apologies in any case. .. Indeed, gossip do initiat "interesting" discussions. Look at that holder, did you hear about his wife? Oh, have you heared about archbishop's son, oh my. And our ni-kunni neighbors moving furniture all night every night, why oh why sister? Your discussion is the same type of interesting. I expected better from you Mrs Farel or if not better then at least some class, extremely disappointing.
Gossip ? On international geopolitics ? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1463
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 06:58:51 -
[153] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote: I'm fairly certain we ended his existence.
I doubt he's any less mortal than you or I, capsuleer.
Fixed that for you....
|
iyammarrok
Virtually Anonymous Milk Of The Poppy
393
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 15:48:20 -
[154] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Very inappropriate questions you ask Mrs Farel. That is possible. Always easy to tell with detachement after though... At least it initiated some interesting discussions. Everyone has my apologies in any case. .. Indeed, gossip do initiat "interesting" discussions. Look at that holder, did you hear about his wife? Oh, have you heared about archbishop's son, oh my. And our ni-kunni neighbors moving furniture all night every night, why oh why sister? Your discussion is the same type of interesting. I expected better from you Mrs Farel or if not better then at least some class, extremely disappointing.
And your ad hominem is the same drivel as everyone else's. Do not listen to such closed minds Lyn.
I am told that in the past, Emperors have been removed from office. If this is the case, then it is possible that they can be wrong, counter to some of the more virulent claims on this thread. It is right to question one's leaders when they begin to act in a manner that is inconsistent with their stated goals, or when their actions become erratic. It is prudent to question them should their actions be deemed counter to the greater good of those they lead.
However much the zealots may wish it otherwise, if an emperor or empress can be removed from office, they can be wrong. if they can be wrong, and they are the voice of 'god'. then god can be wrong.
given that logic, I can understand their zeal and their claims that no matter the evidence to the contrary, their leader must, always, be right. it's not correct, by any stretch, but I can understand why they would want to believe it.
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
|
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1256
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 18:59:27 -
[155] - Quote
I think you are taking it a bit too literally...
Anyway, It is not my place to put the empress mandate into question, as in, casting doubts or contesting. I can merely ask questions... Is it misplaced curiosity ? Time will tell...
As much as it seems to disappoint some, let is not fall into pure obscurantism...
I am now well aware of how accusatory the title of that thread can be, and how confused I... Might have found myself in when all if this happened. |
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Black Parable
66
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 00:06:08 -
[156] - Quote
Perhaps a better question to ask oneself might be: "If I do not have a seat on the Privy Council does the Empress have any obligation to answer my questions?" |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
676
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 00:46:52 -
[157] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Perhaps a better question to ask oneself might be: "If I do not have a seat on the Privy Council does the Empress have any obligation to answer my questions?"
Because seeking to understand the motivations of the 4th-largest power in space is irresponsible, right? |
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Black Parable
68
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 02:26:44 -
[158] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Perhaps a better question to ask oneself might be: "If I do not have a seat on the Privy Council does the Empress have any obligation to answer my questions?" Because seeking to understand the motivations of the 4th-largest power in space is irresponsible, right?
I would say attributing motivations to Her Imperial Majesty solely on the basis of conjecture as irresponsible, yes.
Likely as irresponsible as a member of the Amarrian faith to directly question in public an action of their Empress and demand that God's representative be held accountable to them. Then again I doubt Ms. Farel places much personal value in the Codes of Demeanour as outlined in the Scriptures or she would already know that the rule of the Empress is Benign and Righteous without need for her to ask questions of why for any action Her Imperial Majesty decides to undertake. The only outcome to be had in doing so is to instigate a discussion in which the actions of the Empress are cast into aspersion and spurious conjecture which I can only assume was Ms. Farel's intention.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
681
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 03:53:48 -
[159] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Likely as irresponsible as a member of the Amarrian faith to directly question in public an action of their Empress and demand that God's representative be held accountable to them. Then again I doubt Ms. Farel places much personal value in the Codes of Demeanour as outlined in the Scriptures or she would already know that the rule of the Empress is Benign and Righteous without need for her to ask questions of why for any action Her Imperial Majesty decides to undertake. The only outcome to be had in doing so is to instigate a discussion in which the actions of the Empress are cast into aspersion and spurious conjecture which I can only assume was Ms. Farel's intention.
Wow, poorly ham-fist your attempts at brow-beating and intimidation much? |
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Black Parable
69
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 04:34:35 -
[160] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Likely as irresponsible as a member of the Amarrian faith to directly question in public an action of their Empress and demand that God's representative be held accountable to them. Then again I doubt Ms. Farel places much personal value in the Codes of Demeanour as outlined in the Scriptures or she would already know that the rule of the Empress is Benign and Righteous without need for her to ask questions of why for any action Her Imperial Majesty decides to undertake. The only outcome to be had in doing so is to instigate a discussion in which the actions of the Empress are cast into aspersion and spurious conjecture which I can only assume was Ms. Farel's intention.
Wow, poorly ham-fist your attempts at brow-beating and intimidation much?
I believe we differ greatly in what constitutes intimidation, Ms. Arrendis. What I expressed was a frank opinion. I admit, they might even be perceived to be harsh, but untempered words alone are not tacit or implied coercion enough for intimidation in my mind.
|
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
681
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 04:46:22 -
[161] - Quote
Ahh, I see... so you don't read the clear undercurrent of 'FILTH! How dare you even try to imagine you could understand the workings of the Empress' mind? Look to your Scriptures and comport yourself correctly, woman, lest you give cause to Inquisitors to visit in the night.' in there?
Cuz, you know... it's there. |
Honorius Vitellius
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 05:53:38 -
[162] - Quote
iyammarrok wrote:I am told that in the past, Emperors have been removed from office. If this is the case, then it is possible that they can be wrong, counter to some of the more virulent claims on this thread. It is right to question one's leaders when they begin to act in a manner that is inconsistent with their stated goals, or when their actions become erratic. It is prudent to question them should their actions be deemed counter to the greater good of those they lead.
However much the zealots may wish it otherwise, if an emperor or empress can be removed from office, they can be wrong. if they can be wrong, and they are the voice of 'god'. then god can be wrong.
given that logic, I can understand their zeal and their claims that no matter the evidence to the contrary, their leader must, always, be right. it's not correct, by any stretch, but I can understand why they would want to believe it. As is often the case, discussions of this nature undertaken by those outside the faith, veer into troubled territory, marred by partial understandings of the nuances of the imperial tradition and the proper practice of theology. Much of the engagement I have seen in this discussion is mired in so much innate hostility for the Amarr people, that it is immune to logic. In the eyes of some, the worst will be found in any action undertaken by the Empire and its leaders in any event (and facts will be creatively reinterpreted to suit at will). In fact, one could question the wisdom of beginning this discussion before the current audience as opposed to another. Even though it is largely profitless, I will offer the following.
I would first take issue with some of the chains of logic employed here. My response will be cursory and will only briefly touch on matters of extreme difficulty.
First, in a time of war, what competent military command will embrace the public questioning of its leadership? None of the Empires would embrace this notion.
Now to the meat: If the current emperor/empress can be wrong, does that mean that God is fallible? No, it does not. Human beings live in time. They are changeable. Anything that is changeable is imperfect. All humans are imperfect.
The Empire is the extension of GodGÇÖs community in the human sphere. As history clearly shows, it is changeable. God wishes His creatures to follow His revelation, as outlined in the Scriptures, to the best of their ability. As humans are imperfect, this realization is imperfect. Nonetheless, it is the will of God, that all human beings obey the throne of the Amarr Empire as GodGÇÖs delegate before all of humanity. It is this obedience that is owed, not explanations. Obedience to God is to be cultivated before all other concerns, especially the human weakness of vanity here clearly on display in the recurrent demand that GodGÇÖs nature and His ways should be easy to understand. As so often is the case, the Matari (and those of like mind) question, GÇ£Why is your God not like me?GÇ¥ The faithful must reply that it is on account of your broken humanity. As long as your humanity is distorted through continued estrangement from Him, everything fair will seem foul and blindness will seem like true sight.
|
Haruchai Khan
Metropolitan Police Service
106
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 07:36:04 -
[163] - Quote
Honorius Vitellius wrote: Much of the engagement I have seen in this discussion is mired in so much innate hostility for the Amarr people, that it is immune to logic. In the eyes of some, the worst will be found in any action undertaken by the Empire and its leaders in any event (and facts will be creatively reinterpreted to suit at will).
Honorius Vitellius wrote:Nonetheless, it is the will of God, that all human beings obey the throne of the Amarr Empire as GodGÇÖs delegate before all of humanity. It is this obedience that is owed, not explanations.
I am shocked, shocked, to find that you think there is concern/hostility to the military actions of the Empire.
I can't imagine why.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1471
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 08:51:20 -
[164] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ahh, I see... so you don't read the clear undercurrent of 'FILTH! How dare you even try to imagine you could understand the workings of the Empress' mind? Look to your Scriptures and comport yourself correctly, woman, lest you give cause to Inquisitors to visit in the night.' in there?
Cuz, you know... it's there.
Just a quick question: Which woman are we talking about with a mind of filth? If you have her address I'll pop over and um...'chastise' her.
For the good of the Empire who's people share the same delusion of course. |
iyammarrok
Virtually Anonymous Milk Of The Poppy
397
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 08:57:32 -
[165] - Quote
Everyone, regardless of position or power, is accountable for their own actions. Being a leader does not absolve one of guilt, in fact, it makes one more accountable, as you are also accountable for the actions performed in your name.
-Idama Tertianus Rethelior
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5485
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 09:51:57 -
[166] - Quote
It is pertinent to remember that ultimately, while power in the Empire is derived primarily from God, the overwhelmingly vast majority of actual decision making - some might venture to say as high as 100% of it, actually - is done by human beings. In the Empire, as with all large heirarchical groupings of human beings, there is a calculus of power. By law and tradition the Emperor is the chosen agent of the Divine on this plane of existence - they are essentially empowered to speak for God and their Word is Law.
Except that's not completely true. There are institutions in the Empire that have the power to deny the word of the Emperor - indeed, some of them have this ability by design, as a failsafe against problem cases such as Zaragram II. The Theology Council and the Speakers of Truth in particular have the power to invoke censure against an Emperor - but the problem is that that power is itself predicated upon the Empire's support for their legitimacy. It's not merely a question of whether they would choose to do so. While much is made of the concept of self-evident righteousness, a lot of Imperial politics is tied up in the charisma and force of will an individual possesses.
When Brother Joshua invoked censure against Heir Aritcio Kor-Azor for his various abuses of power, there was very little resistance to it, as he had little support from his subjects. But one must remember that Aritcio's actions were actually perfectly legal - the Heirs, are, after all, above such things as secular law. Likewise, Aritcio had not actually transgressed any religous law, either; the law that allowed his followers to cut him to pieces repeatedly was actually a right afforded to them to receive restitution for injury, which was not technically an invocation of punishment. No-one was going to stand up for Aritcio, as he'd made the terribly grave mistake of rendering himself unlikeable without also rendering himself untouchable. Ultimately, Aritcio was dismembered because the Speakers of Truth said he should be, and because no-one with the power to do so objected.
Could censure be invoked against Empress Jamyl, should sufficient cause be found to do so? Ultimately the answer would depend on the courage of the people with the power to do so, and that largely depends on how genuine they believe the devotion of her various subjects is. The Theology Council almost certainly has the power to declare Jamyl's claim to the throne illegitimate if they were presented with satisfactory evidence - but would they dare to do so? Could they leverage their authority sufficiently to overcome Sarum's supporters? And yet, how many of Sarum's supposedly devoted supporters would turn on a dime and abandon her if the Theology Council told them it was safe to do so?
I find it ironic that ultimately, the decision of who is the most devoted servant of God lies in the hands of a distinctly human bunch of people.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2069
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 11:03:38 -
[167] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
When Brother Joshua invoked censure against Heir Aritcio Kor-Azor for his various abuses of power, there was very little resistance to it, as he had little support from his subjects. But one must remember that Aritcio's actions were actually perfectly legal - the Heirs, are, after all, above such things as secular law. Likewise, Aritcio had not actually transgressed any religous law, either; the law that allowed his followers to cut him to pieces repeatedly was actually a right afforded to them to receive restitution for injury, which was not technically an invocation of punishment. No-one was going to stand up for Aritcio, as he'd made the terribly grave mistake of rendering himself unlikeable without also rendering himself untouchable. Ultimately, Aritcio was dismembered because the Speakers of Truth said he should be, and because no-one with the power to do so objected.
You have to remember that many aspects of Imperial law are feudal in nature. Whilst the nobility have great power, they also have great responsibility towards those under them. In such a system the line between punishment and restitution can be blurred.
As someone who was there, I have to say that Brother Joshua would disagree with you over the legality of Lord Kor-Azor's actions.
Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions. Whilst I am not at liberty to divulge the specifics because elements of the case have never been entered into the public domain, Lord Kor-Azor was shown to have overstepped the bounds of his authority and inflicted egregious punishments on his subordinates and his vassals where no punishment was warranted on multiple occasions throughout his sphere of control.
Brother Joshua's final judgement was that Lord Kor-Azor should be punished for each of his infractions. Whilst each individual punishment was minor, the cumulative effect was substantial.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Hevaima Gesakaarin
Black Parable
70
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 15:48:45 -
[168] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ahh, I see... so you don't read the clear undercurrent of 'FILTH! How dare you even try to imagine you could understand the workings of the Empress' mind? Look to your Scriptures and comport yourself correctly, woman, lest you give cause to Inquisitors to visit in the night.' in there?
Cuz, you know... it's there.
Did you know Nyx fuel can in fact melt tritanium alloy beams, Ms. Arrendis?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
687
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 17:34:07 -
[169] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Did you know Nyx fuel can in fact melt tritanium alloy beams, Ms. Arrendis?
That's it. Deflect. Dismiss. Never actually address the matter. |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
480
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 17:40:35 -
[170] - Quote
S**t like this is why we don't like the Amarr. Arrogance.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5490
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 18:24:11 -
[171] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions. Possibly true but ultimately meaningless, as the Heirs are explicitly outside the constraints of secular law. That's what mandated the intervention of a Speaker of Truth in the first place.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2072
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 19:06:34 -
[172] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions. Possibly true but ultimately meaningless, as the Heirs are explicitly outside the constraints of secular law. That's what mandated the intervention of a Speaker of Truth in the first place.
Again, you're failing to take into account the feudal nature of Amarrian civil society.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1258
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 20:33:17 -
[173] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Arrendis wrote:Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Perhaps a better question to ask oneself might be: "If I do not have a seat on the Privy Council does the Empress have any obligation to answer my questions?" Because seeking to understand the motivations of the 4th-largest power in space is irresponsible, right? I would say attributing motivations to Her Imperial Majesty solely on the basis of conjecture as irresponsible, yes. Likely as irresponsible as a member of the Amarrian faith to directly question in public an action of their Empress and demand that God's representative be held accountable to them. Then again I doubt Ms. Farel places much personal value in the Codes of Demeanour as outlined in the Scriptures or she would already know that the rule of the Empress is Benign and Righteous without need for her to ask questions of why for any action Her Imperial Majesty decides to undertake. The only outcome to be had in doing so is to instigate a discussion in which the actions of the Empress are cast into aspersion and spurious conjecture which I can only assume was Ms. Farel's intention.
Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...? |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1258
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 20:45:00 -
[174] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions. Possibly true but ultimately meaningless, as the Heirs are explicitly outside the constraints of secular law. That's what mandated the intervention of a Speaker of Truth in the first place.
There is no real secular law in Amarr... |
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Black Parable
74
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 22:53:30 -
[175] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote: Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...?
Much like yourself and others, a stranger expressing their personal thoughts and opinions on the Galnet communications platform known as the Intergalactic Summit: Where anyone can be a pundit and the points scored do not matter.
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Claudia Osyn
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
1380
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 23:18:19 -
[176] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Lyn Farel wrote: Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...?
Much like yourself and others, a stranger expressing their personal thoughts and opinions on the Galnet communications platform known as the Intergalactic Summit: Where anyone can be a pundit and the points scored do not matter. But the points do matter. I keep tally, and at the end of existence I will choose the person with the highest number of points to sit and judge the rest of the IGS with me.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
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Indira Harashani
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
70
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 02:34:42 -
[177] - Quote
It seems to me that a number of people here have missed a very key bit of information. Namely, that within systems designated as high-security space, entities acting as authorized representatives of the sovereign owners of that space are permitted, at their discretion, to adjust the status (or "flag" in capsuleer parlance) of any capsuleer in their vicinity via the Crimewatch system.
This includes the ability to give a pilot a "Suspect" status, making them a legally-engageable target under the Crimewatch rules.
This is not the first time such an incident has occurred. It will not be the last. I seem to recall an incident in the Federation a few years back involving a number of FIO capsuleer representatives activating a Suspect flag on an entire fleet of capsuleers for refusing to stand down when they were asked to cease and desist in their escort and protection of a number of individuals belonging to some group that I believe was called Snipehunt. In that case, they were likely operating with the approval of President Roden.
Her Majesty was entirely within her CONCORD-established rights and privileges to delegate the capability to enable Suspect flagging on Mentor Raish's vessel and person to her Imperial Navy escort, and that escort, in turn, was within their rights and privileges to carry through with the task delegated to them.
Mentor Raish invoking this "ninth codicil" did not explicitly invalidate those rights and privileges granted to the Empress and her escort.
Furthermore, it was requested, and then later demanded, that he cease his scanning numerous times. If he had ceased before completing his scans, it is entirely likely that he and his crew would have been permitted to leave. It was after he had refused those requests and stalled long enough to finish his scans that the order to eliminate him was given.
This is no different to someone walking up to a military base, and taking scans, pictures or other recordings of the facilities, and then when asked to stop by the base personnel, refusing to do so and then attempting to flee the scene when they are done rather than simply stopping as requested.
As to the comments regarding the Empress' Avatar-class titan being scanned by other capsuleers and them receiving no response... the cargohold and ship-scanning equipment that we have access to is hardly invasive. Most ship's systems are invisible to those scans; the only information one is likely to glean from those are the contents of the cargohold, capacitor status, and a smattering of standardized equipment 'modules' connected to the vessel's computing and power grids. Whatever Mentor Raish had and was using - be it an Entosis Link or something else - was clearly far more invasive than either of those scanning suites could ever be.
Considering Carthum Conglomerate's involvement in the Link's development, and the connections to Carthum that the Empress' had through her family prior to her ascension to the throne, I would be unsurprised to learn if there is more to those modules than we are aware of, that she, the Imperial Navy, and other parties that may include the SOCT, are.
Which would give further justification to such a scan being considered hostile, whereas the numerous independent capsuleers buzzing about like flies were not.
Lady Indira Harashani
Holder of the Kheryskova Archipelago, Kihtaled IV
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
697
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 02:52:02 -
[178] - Quote
Indira Harashani wrote: Her Majesty was entirely within her CONCORD-established rights and privileges to delegate the capability to enable Suspect flagging on Mentor Raish's vessel and person to her Imperial Navy escort, and that escort, in turn, was within their rights and privileges to carry through with the task delegated to them.
As stated before: we all know she had the right to do it: she had the biggest guns. And that's all that the various Navies and CONCORD itself represent: the biggest guns. Don't claim some words on a page someplace make a damned bit of difference in the final calculation of 'who gets to do what'. The only difference they make is they can be used to rally others to your cause, giving you more guns than the other guy.
Indira Harashani wrote: Furthermore, it was requested, and then later demanded, that he cease his scanning numerous times. If he had ceased before completing his scans, it is entirely likely that he and his crew would have been permitted to leave. It was after he had refused those requests and stalled long enough to finish his scans that the order to eliminate him was given.
Actually, he had already completed his scans when the last demand came. He'd already stopped. He was already moving off. And your analogy's terribly flawed.
Indira Harashani wrote: This is no different to someone walking up to a military base, and taking scans, pictures or other recordings of the facilities, and then when asked to stop by the base personnel, refusing to do so and then attempting to flee the scene when they are done rather than simply stopping as requested.
In this instance, the person at the military base would have had the scans, pictures, or recordings confiscated, regardless of whether or not they stopped. If the 'base personnel' had told the person to leave, and then shot that person when they went to leave, they'd still get asked why the hell they did that.
Indira Harashani wrote: Which would give further justification to such a scan being considered hostile, whereas the numerous independent capsuleers buzzing about like flies were not.
If that's true, then it would make distributing Entosis Links, if the Empress and Imperial Navy know something about what Entosis Links can do to titans that other groups do not, then congratulations, you've just made a case for suspicion that the Amarr Empress is saturating the space of every other power in the cluster with potentially dangerous equipment, possibly with an intent toward providing sleeper cells with the means to disable the most powerful assets of her rivals.
Yep. You're really helping her case here. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1263
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 08:29:07 -
[179] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Lyn Farel wrote: Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...?
Much like yourself and others, a stranger expressing their personal thoughts and opinions on the Galnet communications platform known as the Intergalactic Summit: Where anyone can be a pundit and the points scored do not matter.
Glad to meet you sir.
( They cetainly matter more than what happens in space between freelance capsuleers, wouldn't you say ? ) |
Kahar Dex
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 10:18:18 -
[180] - Quote
This thread has received more than it's due worth of attention. Neophyte Farel, please see me in my offices at your convenience to discuss an item which is relevant to you, and only amongst loyalists.
His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex of the CVA and Imperial Dreams.
Follow The Cardinal: @kahardex
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Mudar Abu Ali
Riverstone Holdings LLC
1
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 15:49:48 -
[181] - Quote
Without detracting from the importance of this discussion, I would like to leave the arguments about legality and rights for a moment and look at Raish's ship (one of the few factual items from this incident).
He had fitted multiple scanning modules (everything but a Survey scanner) in addition to the Entosis II module. He also had a Slave implant set.
I am aware that the Entosis link has been tested on just about everything in New Eden, but I wonder if there is some combination of scanning gear that when coupled with the Entosis module yields more or different information?
Is there a new scanning protocol that the SoCT ship was using?
Is that technique available to all now?
The description of the Entosis module describes its "mysterious" purpose as providing a "more efficient mind-machine" interface of which "practical applications are unclear".
Was Raish scanning, not just Titan, but the Empress herself and is that why she reacted the way she did?
As Dr. Watson, or was it Sherlock Homes, says "Is new skullduggery afoot?"
Inquiring minds want to know! |
Frenjo Borkstar
Borkstar Laboratories
124
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 17:43:51 -
[182] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:An Entosis Link is a weapon. It gathers knowledge.
Knowledge is a more powerful weapon than any other.
I'm not sure why this is a point of discussion. Of course Her Imperial Majesty has secrets that she doesn't want to be made public. Doesn't every ruler?
It was NOT an entosis link! The effect was completely different!
How many times do people have to say this? Either that, or it was a modified one - More akin to the Seeker scanning technology.
Dr. Frenjo Borkstar,
//Founder of the Drifter Research Assembly//
Lead for Arek'Jaalan's Project Salus, Co-Lead for Project Trireme,
Borkstar Laboratories.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
927
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 22:31:56 -
[183] - Quote
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:It was NOT an entosis link! The effect was completely different!
How many times do people have to say this? Either that, or it was a modified one - More akin to the Seeker scanning technology.
Completely different how? I've used one. It looked the same to me. |
Kahar Dex
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
229
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 07:44:04 -
[184] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Frenjo Borkstar wrote:It was NOT an entosis link! The effect was completely different!
How many times do people have to say this? Either that, or it was a modified one - More akin to the Seeker scanning technology. Completely different how? I've used one. It looked the same to me.
Pilot Arrendis,
Please see this reference.
Excerpt: ...which began using an unidentified scanning system on her Avatar class titan Seraph. After a number of requests to cease operations and leave Imperial space that were seemingly disregarded...
(Emphasis mine)
Given the SoCT's affiliation with the Jove, it can be expected that some of their technology's capacities may resemble one another, however the Entosis link, is only capable of affecting structures insofar as what we have been able to reverse engineer. The fact that it was used on a ship shows the following:
- Either it is an Entosis link, but the SoCT have the ability to use it beyond the traditional capability that we currently know of (a threat) - Or it is as others have mentioned and news sources stated... a completely unidentified piece of scanning equipment (a threat)
His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex of the CVA and Imperial Dreams.
Follow The Cardinal: @kahardex
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
957
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 13:15:44 -
[185] - Quote
With respect, Cardinal, there's the third option that's come up a few times:
There was something on the titan that isn't normally there which, like TCUs, IHUBs, and stations, can be scanned with an entosis link. (I've already fitted one to my own Gnosis to see if there's a previously-unknown synergy between the two pieces of tech, by the way. There isn't.)
Nobody else tried, so we don't know. |
Sinti Vailatti
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 14:34:09 -
[186] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:With respect, Cardinal, there's the third option that's come up a few times:
There was something on the titan that isn't normally there which, like TCUs, IHUBs, and stations, can be scanned with an entosis link. (I've already fitted one to my own Gnosis to see if there's a previously-unknown synergy between the two pieces of tech, by the way. There isn't.)
Nobody else tried, so we don't know.
Why is this still a thing?
SoCT isn't even an Amarr corp. They're connected more to the Jove than anything. They came into Amarr space in a warship, confronted and then scanned the Amarr head of state.
Of course they got their silly asses blown up!
You don't hear the Jove crying about it do you?
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
960
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 14:36:47 -
[187] - Quote
Sinti Vailatti wrote:You don't hear the Jove crying about it do you?
Nor am I 'crying' about it. I'm simply pointing out that when he said there are '2 options', he's missed one. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1275
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 17:23:03 -
[188] - Quote
Originally created by the Jove eons ago, I am however not sure what makes you say that they are still affiliated to them ?
I mean... is the Sarpentis Corp still affiliated to the Feds ? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
965
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 17:27:33 -
[189] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:I mean... is the Sarpentis Corp still affiliated to the Feds ?
Probably. Deniable assets, the difference between 'pirate' and 'privateer' yadda yadda... |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1277
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 18:14:12 -
[190] - Quote
Respectfully, that seriously sounds like tinfoil theory, if I may say so... |
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Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
798
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 20:36:57 -
[191] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Originally created by the Jove eons ago, I am however not sure what makes you say that they are still affiliated to them ?
I mean... is the Sarpentis Corp still affiliated to the Feds ? Ms Farel
Unlike the SerpentisGÇöwhich has no other interest than wealth and corrupting the innocentGÇöthe SoCT educates parts of Jove. Judging from the information spread in circles close to CONCORD, it seems that still a huge part of those selected by the SoCT for education are indeed Jove.
I do not remember your actual involvement with the SoCT in detail, but didnGÇÖt you eschew contact with others affiliated to the organisation? Even so that you named your corporation kitzless? Did it ever occur to you that this might be one of the reasons why you cannot see what the whole cluster seems to know?
Whatever it is that makes you act so wrong-headed, you shall not allow it to divide your loyalty between the chosen people of God and a bunch of manipulative and shadowy GÇ£philosophers.GÇ¥
Be warned. And move on. Odelya dGÇÖHanguest, Begum etc. pp. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1281
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 22:39:39 -
[192] - Quote
Lady d'Hanguest,
I have studied and attended SoCT classes. As you know, the SoCT is first and foremost an education outlet with uh... very select boarding schools, and kitzes. They form students coming from all the cluster, and an equal amount regularly find their place in respectable Amarrian institutions, as well as other nations.
It is of course true that the SoCT was once founded by the Jove before they even went into contact with the rest of the cluster, or more precisely, by a single Jove individual, Ior Labron, disciple of the famous jove philosopher Gorda Hoje. It has been many centuries since then though, and I do not see anything indicating that they share any submissive status towards the Jove... Who also have been mysteriously absent from the cluster and various assemblies.... Unlike the SoCT.
I see many imperial loyalists indulging into conspiracy theories about 'shadowy and manipulative' SoCT members backed by... nothing at all. Please excuse me if that sounds a bit offensive - I really do not intend it that way - but if you have proofs to back up your claims, I would be glad to see them... Maybe you know more than me on the matter after all, and I am always happy to learn...
I understand you hold a poor view of the Jove politically - after all, they have never been very friendly to the Amarr Empire when they were still present in the Yulai assembly - but I feel that bringing up those prejudices upon a (mostly?) non-jove institution that forms some of the best students of the cluster, Khanid Kingdom and Amarr Empire included, is a bit detrimental to... reason, I find.
I actually believe that Gorda Hoje teachings to be in perfect accordance to one of the Scriptures ultimate goals, which is about learning the way of the divine and a better understanding of His Creation.
I hope you can imagine the surprise that... mess caused to me when it happened. I am sorry if that thread, by its title, was seen in a negative light. It is also easier to get a better grasp on things with current detachment... A valuable lesson in any case.
In the hope that it dissipates your worries and clarifies your inquiry...
Respectfully, Farel. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
968
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 02:27:23 -
[193] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Respectfully, that seriously sounds like tinfoil theory, if I may say so...
Respectfully, you'd be surprised by who we have ties to, much less the pirate organizations out here. Besides, it might be tinfoil. Maybe I'm making all of this up. Maybe all of the speculation is misdirection. Maybe all of the speculation is supposed to look like misdirection, so it'll be discounted.
grr gons. hat gons. |
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
800
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 09:29:23 -
[194] - Quote
Ms Farel
Thank you kindly for your extensive reply. Lamentably, my worries did not dissipate, but only became more severe. So please allow me to speak candidly.
Your reasoning is unsound. It is based on a distorted chronology. You state that it was GÇ£eons agoGÇ¥ or GÇ£many centuriesGÇ¥ that the SoCT came into being. Yet, it was around the year 23000, or roughly 300 years ago, that it was founded. Around 23216GÇöor twenty years prior to YC timeGÇöthe Empire made contact with the Jove. If we now assume that since that time the SoCT admitted non-Jove to their classes, it is a relatively small time span. For more than two hundred years the SoCT in essence was a Jovian organisation. No doubt, their power within the Jove Empire underwent changes, but to maintain that the relationship between the SoCT and the Jove is of purely historical nature strikes me as utterly absurd.
Lyn Farel wrote:I actually believe that Gorda Hoje teachings to be in perfect accordance to one of the Scriptures ultimate goals, which is about learning the way of the divine and a better understanding of His Creation. Gorda Hoje was an infidel and so was Ior Labron. They knew nothing and they did not hear The Word. Any search for GÇ£the meaning of lifeGÇ¥ which is not based on the Scriptures is useless at best. Their GÇ£divineGÇ¥ is not ours. I can only hope and pray for you that the SoCT classes you attended did not irreversibly damage your soul, so that you think the verbiage of Jovian fools equates with the ScriptureGÇÖs eternal truth. Or do you?
Lyn Farel wrote:I see many imperial loyalists indulging into conspiracy theories about 'shadowy and manipulative' SoCT members backed by... nothing at all. The only conspiracy theory at hand is the assumption that the Empress had something to hide.
Given their shameful behaviour at Mekhios and the dubious nature of the SoCT in general, one can only wish that those GÇ£philosophersGÇ¥ who have found employment in Kingdom and Empire will be purged, interrogated and punished.
With many regards, Odelya dGÇÖHanguest, Begum etc. pp. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1284
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 14:04:55 -
[195] - Quote
Well then, I am sorry you take it that way.
If I can clarify further, you are right that 300 centuries is not much compared to current lifespans and the usual Amarr timeframe. In comparison to scientific ventures and student promotions however, it is consequential. More than a century for a school, is many years.
In any case, you carefully evaded my main argument that the Jove have disappeared. The SoCT however, still stands. It does not necessarily proves anything, but it seriously hints to their independent state, especially since I do not see any Jove in their organization. If you can point me to a single current SoCT jovian member, I would be glad to hear about it (and yes, Veniel is a renegade, and probably dead or vanished by now).
The problem, is that your assumptions are made purely out of prejudices with absolutely no solid proof to back them up, and then you call mine 'unsound' and 'utterly absurd'. That alone, however, does not make them so... The burden of proof lies at the feet of the accusation.
Maybe the SoCT still retain links with the Jove, and maybe not. Beyond simple curiosity however, it does not concern me. Confusing the form with the content is the worst mistake that can be made on any subject.
Also, respectfully, being an infidel does not equate being wrong by necessity. That in itself, is a logical fallacy. But again, I am (or was) ready to discuss on the subject of why Serum of Truth is a perfect illustration of the quintessential quest for knowledge - knowledge of the Divine, God - that paves the way for humanity and the Faithful since the very beginning. You assumed as a (prejudiced) axiom that everything that is not Scripture is therefore wrong or misguided by necessity however, and I would urge you to reconsider your theological position on the matter, as that, is actually unsound.
Also no, the 'verbiage of Jovian fools' as you say, certainly does not equate with Scripture. Are you trying to put weird concepts into my mouth ?
I think you are looking for witches, lady d'Hanguest.
It seems to me that you did not really want to hear in the first place, but to find and cause conflict. I do not deem it healthy to continue further in that state of mind.
NB : while I grant to everybody that the title of this thread is maybe not the most appropriate (lack of detachment, again), you only seem to see it working in one way. You assumed straight away that I was on the side of the SoCT. Why is that so... ? That question-title goes both ways...
NB2: This message does only represent the position of its beholder. |
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