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CorryBasler
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
90
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Posted - 2015.07.28 01:02:10 -
[31] - Quote
+1 from me. Ive never personally done any of these things described, but it seems to make sense to combine them given the points given. |
Garai Nolen
Xyjax NICE Inter-Celestial Enterprises
40
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Posted - 2015.07.28 01:02:22 -
[32] - Quote
Rossi Tenmar wrote:No.
It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills.
Arch is already a x3 train that you need at V to run a t2 analyzer. Data sites are currently bad enough that no one wastes time currently training Hacking to V. Merging these would do nothing to change the average train time of the average explorer pulling average income.
And if it's that bothersome then make the merged Arch/Hacking skill a x5, merge the total SP of both individual skills to migrate a char, and refund any leftover, which would malcanize this change and screw newbs which seems to be the only way to get bittervets on board.
EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/
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Max Groote
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.28 01:14:35 -
[33] - Quote
I disagree, it would be more impactful to actually make the archaeology minigame substantially different from hacking rather than simply removing half of the surveying skills and modules. |
Sakey Isu
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
0
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Posted - 2015.07.28 01:51:44 -
[34] - Quote
+1 I agree make it easier for new players to make some income. |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
354
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Posted - 2015.07.28 01:55:50 -
[35] - Quote
Rossi Tenmar wrote:No.
It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills.
Yes, "data sites make too much ISK" is the complaint of many an explorer.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2989
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Posted - 2015.07.28 02:04:14 -
[36] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Rossi Tenmar wrote:No.
It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills. Yes, "data sites make too much ISK" is the complaint of many an explorer. That may be true but lowering the bar devalues the sites even more than current.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Ransu Asanari
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
301
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Posted - 2015.07.28 02:19:21 -
[37] - Quote
Short Answer
No, we don't need to merge these skills, or remove one branch. In fact, it wouldn't be worth the effort to do this.
Long Answer
There is a lot of complexity in the current system which is good. As others have pointed out, we have hard fitting choices when needing to fit both modules onto ships, we have T1 and T2 module and rig manufacturing, and different implants.
The skill progression for Hacking and Archaeology is fairly shallow as well. I don't think it's beneficial to remove one of the skills and make the skill progression even more shallow. There is only the one skill for each Hacking and Archaeology to train to 5, and then you're done. There's no "Advanced" skill tree, or additional supplementary skills needed. We could even add in a skill, such as one that gives you more range to your hacking module. There is no need to give newbies a break, as a lot of the exploration sites can be done with a T1 hacking module and low skills.
Yes, the basic frigate skill is needed, cloaking, and scanning skills. But when you compare this to the depth of SP investment for mining (for example) to get to an Exhumer with T2 Strip Mining and Ice Lasers, you can see where the investment for Hacking/Archaeology really isn't that much. On top of that, the Astero/Stratios have made it easier to get into decently bonused ships much faster than having to train Frigate 5 and then Covert Ops.
CCP have cleverly created a new tier of exploration with the Sleeper Cache sites where it requires Hacking and Archaology 5 to leverage the SP investment , as well as very good scanning skills to access them. This puts a higher SP bar to access and complete these sites, as well as the more difficult ones requiring very good tanking skills, as well as Cruiser level ships such as a Stratios or T3 Cruiser.
The new Covert and Besieged Covert sites added also require one of the modules, as well as a good tank and DPS (in the case of defeating the Mordu's Legion ships).
On top of this we have the new Drifter Complexes which require two teams equipped with Data Analyzers to access the central Hive. This is probably more to CCP's intent in Odyssey with the "loot spew" (now removed) where they wanted Exploration activities that encouraged teamwork.
When you look at the effort involved in removing one of the modules, industry components, the skills, and modifying all of the sites - I just don't see the benefit to us as a result of this effort on the part of CCP.
More details on what actual changes we could use in next post. |
Ransu Asanari
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
301
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 02:21:03 -
[38] - Quote
The problem is really twofold - the Data Sites currently don't have a comparable loot value to Relic Sites, and the Faction Sites and hacking minigame are uninteresting. Lets take this one at a time.
1. Many of us have commented on the problems with the Data site values and the need for changes. Team Space Glitter attempted to fix some of the problems in Phoebe, and made some good quality of life changes, like reducing the size of most of the drops, but the value of the site is still low compared to Relic Sites. I've outlined my thoughts in detail here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=422641&p=2
Data Sites are really going to have to be looked at closely before the new Citadel Structures are introduced, and given a very clear direction. A lot of the rare loot drops in Data/Relic sites are from the Faction POS towers and module drops, and these will eventually be phased out for Citadels. In addition, CCP already mentioned at Fanfest that they wanted to revisit how datacores are generated - potentially tying them to research facilities in citadels rather than coming from Data Sites, Faction Warfare, and Research Agents. That really only leaves Decryptors as the unique drop for Data sites, and they aren't rare or significantly valuable in most cases.
I'd suggest looking closely at making Data Sites - from the Faction Data Sites, Wormhole Sleeper Data Sites, and Limited Sleeper Cache sites all contain components for building Citadel components and structures. All of the Industrial Goods (High-Tech Data Chip) and the neglected Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) could become manufacturing components for the Citadels.
On top of this, Sleeper Relic and Data Sites need a hard look at a loot balance pass. Most of the value is from the blue loot from the combat, but there is nothing unique in the Sleeper Data Sites that you currently need to hack to obtain. The Sleeper Relic Sites have the Ancient Relics needed to reverse engineer T3 Subsystems, but they aren't worth much etiher (a separate problem).
I'd suggest removing the NPC seeded skillbooks for T3 Strategic Cruisers, Subsystems, and T3 Destroyers. Have all of these skillbooks completely seeded from Sleeper Data Sites. This would give Sleeper Data Sites something unique to provide to market, and the scarcity would manage the price and CCP can easily tune the drop rates to make sure the skillbook prices don't go out of control. For a good example of how this works, take a look at the Neurotoxin Control and Neurotoxin Recovery skillbooks. They are both completely seeded from Nullsec Booster Gas Sites.
2. The Faction Data/Relic Sites, and Hacking Minigame needs more depth. So this is a complex point.
a. The Faction Data/Relic sites are pretty basic. You scan the site down successfully, and hack the cans for loot without any kind of time crunch. There are no NPCs (they were removed in Odyssey - a good change) but there's also no actual "exploration".
The added Sleeper Cache sites gave us environmental hazards to avoid, damage to tank, puzzles to unlock, secret rooms to find, and multiple timers to create pressure. The actual hacking minigame wasn't the challenge or the point of the site - it was the time we took running around the site to find everything we possibly could, and unlock the secrets. I really like the way these sites were designed - even if they were done with the old dungeon creator system which doesn't make the site very dynamic.
If anything, if the Faction Data/Relic sites were revamped, I'd like to see more of this kind of content added to challenge us, and keep the sites changing up a bit to be more interesting. What if we scanned the site and warped into it, but we didn't see any cans to hack? We had to fly around in the site to decloak them, or navigate some environmental hazards? Just some food for thought.
b. The hacking minigame is pretty basic, and CCP has admitted they want to make changes but have been fairly slow at iterating. This post outlines a few of the ideas:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4954269#post4954269
CCP Bayesian did get the "number of nodes to good stuff" feature added in. The idea of having multiple cores, or more interesting defense software and countermeasures could be something to add depth to the hacking minigame. I'd personally like to see consumables for the hack that we can find, manufacture, and purchase and carry between sites. We could create a mini-economy behind these, and it would make hard decisions when hacking whether to risk using a consumable or not - or having to plug in the consumables you want to use before starting the hack, and not know what you may need and have to play off contingencies or research the sites somehow.
We have to be careful however, as we don't want to make the hacking minigame too twitch/time intensive. Hackers already have to balance their hacking progress with watching local and dscan - especially in wormholes. They also have to manage their distances to site obstacles to be able to cloak up if something comes in, while being able to scoop loot. Keeping at range at 2200 isn't really good counterplay, and you can't align out while hacking as you'll get out of range. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2313
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 02:27:03 -
[39] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:I'd suggest removing the NPC seeded skillbooks for T3 Strategic Cruisers, Subsystems, and T3 Destroyers. Have all of these skillbooks completely seeded from Sleeper Data Sites. This would give Sleeper Data Sites something unique to provide to market, and the scarcity would manage the price and CCP can easily tune the drop rates to make sure the skillbook prices don't go out of control. For a good example of how this works, take a look at the Neurotoxin Control and Neurotoxin Recovery skillbooks. They are both completely seeded from Nullsec Booster Gas Sites. 1. Why would an Empire developed T3D have a skillbook only available in sleeper sites? Lets at least have some common sense involved in things here. T3C's *shrugs* Way way too late to do that change as it would be a massive nerf on all new players compared to old players who bought them cheap on the NPC market.
2. Look at how many people use boosters. They are rare as hell (for several reasons admittedly) so using their skillbooks as an argument for RNG luck in being able to use an item isn't a good argument either.
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Ransu Asanari
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
303
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 02:38:51 -
[40] - Quote
1. There's always a way to work a change like this into the lore. "Because Lore" isn't a good excuse for not doing something. Maybe the initial cache of skillbooks collected has run out due to popularity, and can't be generated by the empire corporations (the man responsible has mysteriously disappeared). Fortunately they can still be found in these sites. Because the skillbooks are all NPC generated, they can all be easily refunded for cost so nobody can hoard them and put them back on the market for extreme profit.
2. The Neurotoxin skillbooks are very rare, which is why the price is so high. Booster Gas sites are only found in specific constellations in Lowsec/Nullsec, and only in the combat drug site, and even then have a low drop rate for the skillbooks. Sleeper Data sites are fairly common from C1-C6 so the drop rate can be easily managed to ensure a supply that doesn't cause the prices to rise too high. |
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Vlad Draculesti
Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective
37
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Posted - 2015.07.28 03:10:03 -
[41] - Quote
Banana1x wrote:I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. Something that will take more time and leave explorers completely vulnerable so i am able to warp in and kill them - or if they warp out immediately they are punished for not staying and getting killed by allowing me to steal the data probe that contains the loot from the can they just hacked.
It frustrates me greatly that they can cloak, can get all the money from doing a heap of those sites and probing and they keep warping away especially if they are aligned to something rather than orbiting / loop approaching the can.
It's not fair that people are able to make decent amounts of money and be almost immune to death due to being cloakey's when im spending an entire 30 seconds figuring out what site they are at and warping to them only for them to escape like every time because im TERRIbad. But if you implement the above idea chances are i'll get some kills!
Fixed that for you. |
Ransu Asanari
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
303
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 03:17:17 -
[42] - Quote
Hah seriously. I kill explorers in these sites all the time. I actually made a video about how I hunt them a while back (turn up the audio):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UdQF1Mu4vY |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1414
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 03:48:33 -
[43] - Quote
Good video. I've always been a huge fan of sitting within 5km of the tastiest can with a cloaked Eris.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Scuzzy Logic
Nightmare Machinery
148
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 03:52:06 -
[44] - Quote
I agree 100%.
Alternatively, give us a different minigame/experience for archeology.
...I miss mag signatures. |
Banana1x
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
59
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 03:55:58 -
[45] - Quote
Vlad Draculesti wrote:Banana1x wrote:I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. Something that will take more time and leave explorers completely vulnerable so i am able to warp in and kill them - or if they warp out immediately they are punished for not staying and getting killed by allowing me to steal the data probe that contains the loot from the can they just hacked.
It frustrates me greatly that they can cloak, can get all the money from doing a heap of those sites and probing and they keep warping away especially if they are aligned to something rather than orbiting / loop approaching the can.
It's not fair that people are able to make decent amounts of money and be almost immune to death due to being cloakey's when im spending an entire 30 seconds figuring out what site they are at and warping to them only for them to escape like every time because im TERRIbad. But if you implement the above idea chances are i'll get some kills!
Fixed that for you. lol
I enjoy exploring too. As I stated before, the intent wasn't to add more steps or expose explorers to any more risk. The current mechanic requires you to go to each can and remain vulnerable while you hack it. This is just a slightly different mechanic with no more or less exposure for the sole purpose of varying the game play to make it interesting.
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Not that Forumguy
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 04:36:17 -
[46] - Quote
What about people like myself who trained up both skills to five ? P.S... love all the +1 kissing up to a csm post |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2066
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 04:44:24 -
[47] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:I'd suggest removing the NPC seeded skillbooks for T3 Strategic Cruisers, Subsystems, and T3 Destroyers. Have all of these skillbooks completely seeded from Sleeper Data Sites. This would give Sleeper Data Sites something unique to provide to market, and the scarcity would manage the price and CCP can easily tune the drop rates to make sure the skillbook prices don't go out of control. For a good example of how this works, take a look at the Neurotoxin Control and Neurotoxin Recovery skillbooks. They are both completely seeded from Nullsec Booster Gas Sites.
So the empire designed ships and sub-systems for those ship but somehow can't write a user manual for them? They design them but don't know how they work? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2066
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 04:46:20 -
[48] - Quote
Not that Forumguy wrote:What about people like myself who trained up both skills to five ? P.S... love all the +1 kissing up to a csm post
Reading the last part of the OP where your "issue" was described was too hard for you. |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
129
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 06:34:22 -
[49] - Quote
Great idea Chance, even though I have both skills at V, I fully agree. It makes no sense. |
SpaceSaft
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
156
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 06:43:42 -
[50] - Quote
You know what? No.
We all agree that the entire skill and attribute system needs change. The #1 thing people ask before getting into eve is "can I catch up" and the answer is "no but it doesn't matter that much." Great. We all know that's wrong to some degree. Hell, my character was born more than two years ago and I just now got into T2 cruisers because I did other stuff first. I sure would have liked to create content with more different ships in those two years.
The skillsystem is boring, it doesn't make much sense in many many cases, requires skill least of all and to single this problem with hacking and archeology out and remove it is a cop-out.
Here is a list of skills that don't make sense right now:
The market order skills. You train 4 different skills and lvl 4 and 5 bring next to nothing compared to the next 3 levels of the next skill.
It goes Trade 2 gives 4 per level -> Retail 5 gives 8 per level -> Wholesale 5 gives 16 per level -> Tycoon. gives 32 per level.
It's so crazy that it makes more sense to make an alt train these skills that complete tycoon 4 and 5.
The same problem exists with corporation membership skills.
It also exists, although not as extreme with industry and science job skills.
And Pi.
Anything that locks you out of using something that's essentially the same is the same has the issue with hacking and archeology: Racial shiphull skills, subsystems, guns to some degree. Like, once you have learned flying a ship or shooting a gun it's not like other races guns operate entirely differently.
Also it's worth mentioning the reddit post about those 10 mil skillpoints "core skills" that are literally 6 months filler that earn CCP cash. Or so they think, because they never see the cash of the people who just go away at the notion of "training" stupid stuff for 6 months before being able to do something interesting.
So advocate for a reworkd of the entire skillsystem please, not just the parts that inconvenience you personally.
The UI is still bad.
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Anthar Thebess
1241
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 06:58:39 -
[51] - Quote
Something is wrong here. Not a 'Shart' idea and CSM symbol .... Stop talking this way or you will be re elected.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
92
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 07:26:25 -
[52] - Quote
I don't explore Thank it's the fact I dislike scanning. But I could get behind this -
+1
On the skill side - merge the skills - add the SP from the merged skill to the primary skill. Any left over SP goes to the next highest skill in that skill group. In the case the player has all skills in said great maxed out - allow them to spend as desired.
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1456
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Posted - 2015.07.28 07:35:41 -
[53] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Rossi Tenmar wrote:No.
It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills. Yes, "data sites make too much ISK" is the complaint of many an explorer.
Have you run the sleeper caches? They give a very nice return thank you very much :) The reason for the two modules is as I stated previously: enforced fitting choices. It also means you need to pick the correct analyzer on the correct can in a situation where even a few wasted seconds can blow the site (and your ship). I would also rather the hacks be differentiated but the separate skills and modules are fine.
Just a point on the calls to make explo easier for easy income for newbies. If we have a suddenly much simpler process and more people easily running sites the value of the goods from the sites will plummet. There has to be a balance and the sleeper cache system should be expanded to provide such. Use the same processes and layout to create escalations. Have the hack at such a level that hisec escalations can be followed by tech I analyzer skilled pilots, losec by more experienced hackers, null by tech II capable hackers.
Exploration should be made more involving not quicker and easier. |
Matt Faithbringer
Rapid Withdrawal
10
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 07:52:37 -
[54] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:Short AnswerNo, we don't need to merge these skills, or remove one branch. In fact, it wouldn't be worth the effort to do this. Long AnswerThere is a lot of complexity in the current system which is good. As others have pointed out, we have hard fitting choices when needing to fit both modules onto ships, we have T1 and T2 module and rig manufacturing, and different implants. For example, if you want to fit a T2 Data and Relic Analyzer on a decent Astero build, you either need to use a fitting module/rig, or a Sisters Core Probe Launcher. The skill progression for Hacking and Archaeology is fairly shallow as well. I don't think it's beneficial to remove one of the skills and make the skill progression even more shallow. There is only the one skill for each Hacking and Archaeology to train to 5, and then you're done. There's no "Advanced" skill tree, or additional supplementary skills needed. We could even add in a skill, such as one that gives you more range to your hacking module. There is no need to give newbies a break, as a lot of the exploration sites can be done with a T1 hacking module and low skills. Yes, the basic frigate skill is needed, cloaking, and scanning skills. But when you compare this to the depth of SP investment for mining (for example) to get to an Exhumer with T2 Strip Mining and Ice Lasers, you can see where the investment for Hacking/Archaeology really isn't that much. On top of that, the Astero/Stratios have made it easier to get into decently bonused ships much faster than having to train Frigate 5 and then Covert Ops. CCP have cleverly created a new tier of exploration with the Sleeper Cache sites where it requires Hacking and Archaology 5 to leverage the SP investment , as well as very good scanning skills to access them. This puts a higher SP bar to access and complete these sites, as well as the more difficult ones requiring very good tanking skills, as well as Cruiser level ships such as a Stratios or T3 Cruiser. The new Covert and Besieged Covert sites added also require one of the modules, as well as a good tank and DPS (in the case of defeating the Mordu's Legion ships). On top of this we have the new Drifter Complexes which require two teams equipped with Data Analyzers to access the central Hive. This is probably more to CCP's intent in Odyssey with the "loot spew" (now removed) where they wanted Exploration activities that encouraged teamwork. When you look at the effort involved in removing one of the modules, industry components, the skills, and modifying all of the sites - I just don't see the benefit to us as a result of this effort on the part of CCP. More details on what actual changes we could use in next post.
I agree that there should be progression. So let's merge the skills. And add new skills, analyzer range (+1km per level?, I could even see +2km per level), virus strength (+2 / level), virus coherency (+3 / level). That would add more progression. Only thing needed would be probably making some higher end sites harded on the hacking part |
Sarah Bonaparte
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.07.28 09:14:28 -
[55] - Quote
if u want remove some skill in this ******* nightmare game is ok.
drop useless skill is the first step.. |
Slim Maken
Bleeding Gums Clan
1
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Posted - 2015.07.28 10:09:31 -
[56] - Quote
This change would be a buff to the Nestor. So I'm all for it. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1458
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 10:37:33 -
[57] - Quote
Slim Maken wrote:This change would be a buff to the Nestor. So I'm all for it.
Nestor doesn't need a buff for this, it already has the slots to fit both analyzers and still have a good armour tank. Most people would use a tech III cruiser over the nestor for explo anyway when such a tank i required. |
Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
158
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 10:44:09 -
[58] - Quote
The OP's core complaint is that there's not enough differentiation between data and relic hacking. No argument there but I am not fond of seeing opportunities for more interesting and varied gameplay eliminated by combining/homogenizing content. I'd much rather see data and relic sites have completely different hacking mini-games--one using the current interface, and the other using some different new one. There's a lot of potential to make the hacking mini-game super fun with interesting and challenging variants for each mini-game type. As addicting as it is, the hacking mini-game in its current form is overly repetitive and predictable after doing a few dozen sites. It was a good start to this kind of gameplay but could be so much better.
I would also like the cans to be unscannable. You should have to complete the hack to find out what's in there.
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
206
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Posted - 2015.07.28 10:49:29 -
[59] - Quote
Merge the modules, but make the new one scriptable. Different scripts for each type of site.
This allows for the sites to be differentiated if CCP get around to it, but also allows for newer types of sites by simply adding a new script to the game.
There is a lot you could do with this approach. For example: Each of the pirate factions in nullsec drop scripts with a very low chance. These unlock acceleration gates of other pirate faction sites in other regions of nullsec. The scripts get consumed on use. These sites are valuable in terms of their rewards.
Scripts are really easy for current and new players to understand, and they offer lots of expandability. |
Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
158
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 10:52:07 -
[60] - Quote
rofflesausage wrote:Merge the modules, but make the new one scriptable. Different scripts for each type of site.
This allows for the sites to be differentiated if CCP get around to it, but also allows for newer types of sites by simply adding a new script to the game.
There is a lot you could do with this approach. For example: Each of the pirate factions in nullsec drop scripts with a very low chance. These unlock acceleration gates of other pirate faction sites in other regions of nullsec. The scripts get consumed on use. These sites are valuable in terms of their rewards.
Scripts are really easy for current and new players to understand, and they offer lots of expandability.
Great suggestion!
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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